[CSE] Hakumen vs. Tager

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I didn't mean passing up good starters if you get them, I'm just pointing out the significance of the poking phase in this MU. Practically every round of this MU starts with a footsies/poking phase that can have a big impact on the outcome of the match. Obviously you should always do your best with the confirms you get because most of Haku's low-star combos actually t

gain meter instead of losing it. What I meant to suggest was not to end the poking phase when you don't have to, make Tager work for it. Its not your job to make closing the distance easier for him, he'll make you regret it.

[SansProtocol]

Alright, I will put more info up into this post when I get home but I'll type a bit on my phone while I have the chance.

• Range your moves out farther than you normally would. Your hurtbox is extended with a lot of your long-range poles/normals. If you space them a bit further than normal, you'll avoid trades and hit with just the hitbox of the move. Whiffing a move is usually better than being too close and getting CH yourself.
  
  
  
• In the case of Spark Bolt, answers are range-dependent, like most of this match-up is. If you're close enough to catch with 6D's followup attack, use it. Follow up by IADing over him and do falling j.B > 5C > Gurren > hop 5A/B > JC > j.B > j.2A > AD > j.B > j.2A > j.C. This will get you out of whatever corner they were pushing you into, put them in said corner and waste most of the magnetism time all for the one magatama you got from 6D. If you're too far for 6D, use Kishuu. Have a friend throw Spark Bolt out randomly along with 5A at a good distance to improve your reaction time while not just using Kishuu on reaction to any movement by a Tager player.
  
  
  
• If you have 2 magatama and have scored a knockdown, jump and use j.B in response to their neutral tech. A meaty j.B beats out most options they have and recovers fast enough to backdash out of their range if they do backdash into AC. If you clash with MTW, buffer Hotaru during the superflash and you'll FC them. Most other options will get countered by j.B and can be confirmed into Tsubaki. They can't crouch block the j.B since it's a IOH on Tager. 360A will make j.B whiff but can be followed up by another j.B for CH.
  

I'll post more later but you guys have put up some great info to use. Don't be intimidated too much by Tager players, have confidence in your tools and make them the anxious ones that have to do risky stuff to get in. As mAc (I believe) said, conditioning is important. But that also means that you'll have to capitalize off of it and not do the same stuff. Tager players will eat that up.

[mAc Chaos]

If you clash with MTW, buffer Hotaru during the superflash and you'll FC them.

You mean j.B clashing with MTW?

If Hotaru clashes with MTW then it is bad news.

[SansProtocol]

You mean j.B clashing with MTW?

If Hotaru clashes with MTW then it is bad news.

Yeah, I meant j.B clashing with MTW lol. Trying to keep magatama usage to a minimum unless it will lead to good damage and positioning.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Tager can cancel into stuff from a MTW clash as well. We end up in this situation all the time when mAc tries a meaty Hotaru.

[mAc Chaos]

What Hakumen can do after MTW clash: jD

What Tager can do: any god damn thing he wants

although that is off hotaru being the clash move

Edited March 5, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[Ctrlaltwtf]

According to the frame data, a MTW clash > Hakumen uses Hotaru > Tager uses AC means Tager would win easily.

Now to use this against mAc....

EDIT: Okay after futzing about in Training I see what you're talking about Sans, you mean just jB'ing and hitting MTW's guard frames and canceling into Hotaru (not a clash). This is a really powerful tool against MTW. Good thing mAc will never use it.

This should definitely be in the OP.

There's a flaw with it though, and that's that 720 counters it xD Still, great bait for MTW.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[SansProtocol]

Yeah, my mistake on that. Knew there were guard frames but always figured I was clashing lol. Thanks for the update.

And I don't believe 720 counters the set-up. You either hit them out of it with j.B after it comes out on wakeup or recover off a whiff and still have enough time to do another j.B for a CH. Correct me if I am wrong, however.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Well 720 counters it easily if you're falling when you start the jB, but if you do a rising jB meaty you have enough time, after whiffing jB, to do a jB/jump again. However, using a rising jB for meaty can put you in a risky situation if Tager IBs it. Tager doing backstep 2A seems to work well enough against it, although I think a Hotaru at the last moment might save you against that.

So basically, mind games all over again. This setup seems pretty good against Tager overall though.

jB > MTW > Hotaru

jB > 720 > jA/jump out

Edited March 5, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[SansProtocol]

Thanks for double-checking it! I use it a lot in matches against Tager since it's one of the few reliable things in this match-up. Everything else is dependent on meter, range, magnetism, or Spark Bolt.

I want to add that Axis is right about 3C as it is especially good against Tagers who love to Voltaic Charge Haku's 4C. Another thing to remember is if a normal of Hakumen's hits the guard frames on that move, canceling into Renka works closer up at times. Smart Tager players will only use this when you are too far away to do much about it.

Let's see...I prefer using 6D over 6A in this match-up. 6A on CH AA can be linked into Enma for a combo but it is awkward to use effectively against Tager. Tager's j.2C has a tendency to clash with it or beat it completely if 6A is done too early (which is easy to do against j.2C). Tager's j.D is also a problem for 6A as when done at the proper distance, will beat it clean. 6D works better in both situations.

A piece of advice for Tager players since they've been pretty helpful here. Practice doing falling j.D low enough to the ground that it starts to come out but fails to before landing. Since you have little to no landing recovery, you can go straight into 360B/720C. This serves well against players who depend on counters a bit too much on your jump-ins. You'll get juicy damage and make the Hakumen player very wary of throwing 6D out there. Mixing this up with any j.D done at a higher height and proper distance will really screw with the opponent.

Don't have anything to help the post-GF scenario. It is a 6-4 match-up for a reason lol.

[mAc Chaos]

6-4 is too much. 5.5.

We need to find more Tagers to play.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

6-4 is too much. 5.5.

We need to find more Tagers to play.

I would agree with you that this matchup is pretty fucking close but I also wonder if it's just because we are way too yomi-aware of each other's playstyles lol. DeadliestxXx would probably be a better XBL Tager to fight against.

[mAc Chaos]

That's part of the matchup too though.

[SansProtocol]

Being aware of player tendencies does not factor into technical match-up numbers, since no one plays the same way.

Edited March 6, 2013 by SansProtocol

[Sophisticat]

I need video evidence. I am increasingly becoming convinced this matchup is not in Haku's favour. Halp.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I need video evidence. I am increasingly becoming convinced this matchup is not in Haku's favour. Halp.

I've got a bunch of replays of Tager losing last night when mAc and I were grinding this MU. We took turns between who was Hakumen and who was Tager.

I think I posted something in the match finder threads like "This is conclusive evidence that Tager is bad." lol

Magnetism greatly dictates the battle. You lose the ability to safely use your pokes once you get magnetized because it puts you into 360A+magnetism range which counters your Cs cleanly.

[A.X.I.S.]

It's 5.5-4.5 in Haku's favor lol.

You out range Tager, out damage him, and can even fit in a taunt in the process.

[Sophisticat]

Meh, I just hate this matchup. It's so dependent on yomi, and yomi is not in your favour when it's vs. Brice.

Anyway, was going to make a big write-up, but I'll hold that for a couple days for some more exp. I want to test some more stuff out first.

[mAc Chaos]

nooooo

You know if you wait it is never going to happen. :P

Just write it up now and come back later and add a few new posts when you find out more stuff.

[Sophisticat]

Haha, the gist of it is more or less what you wrote, though.

I'll just add that you can't void Spark Bolt. You'll still get mag'd even if you do. So you need to either jump it or Kishuu under.

Midscreen you do need to mount an offence, not just zone forever. Risk/reward will be skewed towards Tager if you're too passive. You need to find some optimal balance between offence and keeping him out, but never commit too much to either. Zoning does shit for dmg, but RTSD will get you killed. Balance between the two would be best to keep him off-guard.

The setting you'll most want to know cold is the neutral game. Whoever can gain the upper hand here will to my mind be the one to win the match. But Tager has monster comeback potential, so you can never let it up.

And that's all for tonight.

[mAc Chaos]

Maybe Ctrl should post one of our matches. But not the ones where I am Tager. :P Then again I am not sure if my playing is going to be a good example.

Also, by yomi being part of the matchup, I meant that you can't just apply your tools in a textbook like manner as the matchup would suggest, there is more to it than that. The first time you play someone you can't rely on knowledge of the player so you have to rely just on the tools you have, but the more you play the more you can refine how you use your tools, so it's indirectly a part of it. So using your tools is just the foundation, but using yomi and player knowledge is not something separate but something you build on top of it. It is the next step.

Plus, in Tager's case, a lot of his tools are only as effective as your yomi is.

[Sophisticat]

Mac, come to UMAD. You need to play Brice. :P

But yes, I agree you can't do the textbook matchup, though I think this applies to all matchups at high-level.

[Mucky]

Sophisticat, you're on PSN? Maybe we can play. PSN Hakus are like an endangered species.

[Sophisticat]

That would be cool. Friday's probably the earliest I can do, though. You can add me in the meantime.

Best PSN Haku I know is Soul-6-Ookami. He's got his stuff together.

[itsme]

It is if you keep Tager full screen away from you while holding even a 1 HP life lead at all times.