AC: General Discussion

[amishrolf]

how much worse can they screw Dizzy over? its ridiculous

[Ice Prince]

Why do I feel a "jinx" coming on?

[DrgnEclair]

i will crush all with ac dizzy kthxbye

[Nehle]

Have you even played AC yet? Probably not. Well I've been messing around with Dizzy more lately and here's the lowdown on "extended fish rushes"-

Of course most people haven't been able to play AC yet, but don't act like know everything about AC dizzy just because you've been "messing around", because it's obvious hat you don't.

-214P/K/S/H~additional input. You must input the extra attack during Dizzy's recovery from the initial summon (best to just tap during the initial command, really). It's not hard but you have to think ahead.

Since when was Dizzy NOT about thinking ahead?

- secondly- no fish attacks increase guardbar. PERIOD.

This is true for every projectile in the game. But unlike most people, dizzy can coordinate her blockstrings with her fish and thus have her normals still increase the guard bar, and that's going to work even better with extended fish rushes.

- both lazer fish take like a year to come out (77F startup, ~44F as extension)- and the fish will go out of there way to try to fly in front of Dizzy before lazering if they are used as extensions.

mhmm, during this "year", did you happen to notice how the fish will travel forward? Did you also happen to notice how, if rush behind it with dizzy, the laser fish will act as a shield stay just in front of dizzy until the laser is fired?

Honestly the best fish patterns seem to be S/H -> P/K, or P -> P/K for general purpose pressure.

This is true

I'm sure with some creativity and a ton of tension, you could create some weird strings with the huge delay in between fish attacks

AC Dizzy pressure in corner which ends with incredibly good mixups doesn't require an ounce of tension, and you only have to see it once to know how to do it. You might need some creativity if you want to alter it. That's it.

but keep in mind that the fish can NOT be summoned for a good while after the fish disappears, NOT after it was summoned in the first place- so fish extensions actually increase the delay before you can re-summon a fish, which hurts most of Dizzy's old trap sequences.For reference, after a fish gets hit, you can't summon a new fish for 106F. That's a good 1.5 seconds.

It's more like 1.75 seconds, but whatever. Nailing the opponent to the corner for 1.75 seconds with pressure is not a hard feat at all., especially if you have prepared which you usually have time for for after a KD - not that it matters because AC dizzy will get to the "kill you" mixups with just one fish setup in the corner. Lol at "Dizzy's old trap sequences". Her new ones work just fine. You DO realize the reason so many AC dizzy were losing in the beginning was because they were playing her too much like Slash, right?

As for Slash Dizzy H fish, crossup antics... you can make it crossup/not crossup based on about a few pixel's worth of movement + initial jump direction + airdash timing, and on top of that you can do late double-airdash/land mixup from either direction. All for a BASIC setup (throw, H fish) which can easily be extended with other moves.

Repeat after me: THAT SETUP SUCKS. Not only is it incredibly boring, but if the opponent knows how to handle it, they will ALWAYS block it in the right direction - 100% guaranteed, even if you do try to fake it with a bubble. It's that bad, yet people are always hailing it like the best setup ever.

She had plenty of stuff off that setup and j2S just adds another crossup, really.

j2S add a fast way to hit crouching opponents as well as a non-bugged crossup where there isn't a "trick" to blocking it.

So she gained ONE new crossup at midscreen (since j2S is redundant in high/low trickery at midscreen since late airdashes let you connect with her other moves) and in return, her corner lazer setups are weaker.

Like I said, she gained a WORKING crossup. And her corner laser setups are definitily stronger. She will gain a shield until the first laser is fired. A p fish extension will attack the enemy from behind for the first bite. She can lockdown for longer and she has an easier time getting to those really nasty mixups. I don't see how this is weaker at all.

On j2S- It's so good in crossups, air-to-ground, and combos, but it's hardly spectacular for much more than that. It gives her another move that does the same thing her other moves do.

Ahaha, "it's only great at practically every application it is meant for, but besides that it's not very good" ahahahahaha

Please tell me what other move she already has that does that

I'm not going to touch the FB bubble subject since it seems like a waste of tension to me.

Plus most of the things you were "asking" for in Dizzy are just ways to make her scrubbier, IMHO.

Please explain why.

Also everybody already knows Dizzy AC frame data, but I guess you had a reason for posting it?

how much worse can they screw Dizzy over? its ridiculous

I don't think "improving" really qualifies as "screwing over"

-and i guess there is one good thing to Dizzy's IK.... she wont lose her tension bar? ......

She does lose it

[Ice Prince]

I feel Slash Dizzy is very incomplete.

She was. There were a few things she was just lacking that made it difficult for her to compete with some of the cast. Almost "incomplete" like you said chun. But AC Dizzy is deff. a step in the right direction I believe.

Good stuff btw Nehle.

[Jet Set Dizzy]

2K Prorates 70%

:P

is this new for AC?

[chun_li1]

:P

is this new for AC?

lol, no, been around forever (after X). and that goes for entire cast.

[Jet Set Dizzy]

ok good. pardon my stupidity. to Nehle: you short novel on why dizzy is not awfull in AC has made me feel better. Plus i remembered 6p to 6h.

[amishrolf]

it's just that hearing a lot of negative reactons to Dizzy made me think they nerfed her into the ground. but i guess not, according to Nehle. go ~

[Ice Prince]

Nehle for prez, and me for first lady (Behind every great man is a gay boy under the table.)

[DrgnEclair]

you know what? dizzy has a big butt.

[chun_li1]

Nehle for prez, and me for first lady (Behind every great man is a gay boy under the table.)

Oi, what about me?! I started the feel good wave!

AC

[Ice Prince]

Chun for vice prez Now back on topic......I WILL find out something good for FB bubble.....I MUST!!!! It's got to be useful somehow...I just know this.

[stinkymonz]

Throw -> TK FB bubble -> random airdashes into j.2S y/y?

[Ice Prince]

^That's a possibility. I'm actually wondering what kind of impact it could bring to the Testy matchup, as Testy is one of Dizzy's hardest fights because she can't use her projectile wall as freely bc of exe beast. His traps can also greatly hinder her spacing. I'm hypothocizing that it may be possible, with the range FB bubble gets on pop, if it can set off Testy's traps. Should that be the case, FB bubble just earned a VIP spot (along with j.2s) for vs Testy. I'll have to experiment with it once I get AC since I've not played it, but if anyone can approve/disprove my theory beforehand, please do so.

[CrimsonDisaster]

Chun for vice prez

Now back on topic......I WILL find out something good for FB bubble.....I MUST!!!! It's got to be useful somehow...I just know this.

It is pretty good, it blows up like half the screen on pop. Just gotta pop it quickly 'cuz it disappears faster than you'd expect and it moves really fast too. Good for putting your opponent in blockstun from far out so you can approach. Dunno if it's the best way to clear webs and crap but if push comes to shove, it does that just fine.

[Ice Prince]

Ah, thanks for the info on that CD. Tis appreciated.

[Nehle]

Throw -> TK FB bubble -> random airdashes into j.2S y/y?

Worth looking into. If you can get that airdash while the opponent still is down you will have excellent crossup opportunities, and unlike Testament's skull mark, they can't tech from the bubble hitting you. Just don't ever do it against DP friendly characters. It might also be easier to to do from a 2d since you can get the bubble out faster

One thing I realized when I thought about how to use the FB bubble is that landing it is not all sunshine. Since the bubble will stay on the opponent for a short time, there's a big chance the Dizzy player will attack recklessly just to get that hit before it disappears. If the opponent is ready for this, they'll have an easy time baiting attacks and punishing her - except for in a very few select situations.

So in many cases it's either wasted tension or risky play

[amishrolf]

i always thought the FB homing bubble pops on its own. if it didnt and i wasnt paying attention, then wouldnt it be better if it did? that way Dizzy wouldnt have to struggle for that one hit, and the opponent would have to back off, giving Dizzy some breathing space. then throw garbage.

[Ice Prince]

So in many cases it's either wasted tension or risky play

This is very true.

[CrimsonDisaster]

So in many cases it's either wasted tension or risky play

Well... I don't go out of my way to pop the bubble. I just send it out and respond to my opponent's reaction. If they try to rush at me, well... anything that hits the bubble puts them into a world of pain one way or another. If they back off, that was 25% tension spent to get breathing room and get an offense going. Nobody thinks blocked/whiffed Gunflame FRCs are wasted if they allow Sol to get in or force his opponent into a certain screen position- you can have a similar attitude with the FB bubble. Its greatest strength is the lingering threat it poses and the decisions it forces on your opponent's part.

[Ice Prince]

I could deff see FB bubble being used as a manuever to get a break. The fact that it punishes so well should make opponents think twice about a blind rush during it.

[quartercirclebk]

I feel like FB Bubble lock = throw city...In most cases people aren't going to want to risk getting hit with the pop, right? Keep 'em blocking, possibly w/ an impending lazer fish, then dash in for the throw...Anyone know how the opponent is floated if you throw them with a bubble on them?

[Ice Prince]

That may just be a possibility, but I'd say you'd have to be pretty quick since the bubble homes in and disappears pretty quickly. Good theory though, we'll have to see.

[Nehle]

Well... I don't go out of my way to pop the bubble. I just send it out and respond to my opponent's reaction. If they try to rush at me, well... anything that hits the bubble puts them into a world of pain one way or another. If they back off, that was 25% tension spent to get breathing room and get an offense going. Nobody thinks blocked/whiffed Gunflame FRCs are wasted if they allow Sol to get in or force his opponent into a certain screen position- you can have a similar attitude with the FB bubble. Its greatest strength is the lingering threat it poses and the decisions it forces on your opponent's part.

I agree with this. FB Bubble's biggest use will primarily be the scare tactics and forcing the opponent to play more careful for a while.

Just raising a finger of warning, because I've seen Dizzys go out of their way to pop ordinary bubbles only to eat punishment. In a similar vein, I've seen both Testament and Faust lose their initiative because they're too afraid to lose poison/crow on the opponent. It's sorta similar, only the other way around