[CP] Noel Vermillion - Gameplay Discussion

[LunaKage]

Pretty sure it's because of the first moves in MF and Fenrir.

 

If you remember, Muzzle Filter has 2 hits, the first one does 0 damage. It's possible that the first hit of Muzzle Filter prorates hard enough that it causes the second hit to do 1600, but it doesn't prorate hard enough to drop it down below 1800 if 5C was used directly before it.

 

So basically, a Fenrir(1) starter prorates worse than a 5C starter, and a Muzzle Filter(1) starter also prorates worse than a 5C starter.

[Fujiwara]

 

 

Also you didn't know about the glitch with Kokos BH and Gaurd point? Bananaken figured it out on day 1 of the patch lol. It only works with OD BH and any move with frame 1 GP will beat it.

 

Never knew. I don't keep up with the Kokonoe News Feed, nor do I keep BananaKen's experiment results on tap.

Did he do a video? I wanna see what else can go through besides Fenrir.

[Sashi]

Mu's DP is another one I remember.

Are there any other setups that Fenrir beats that normal reversals wouldn't?

[legacy49i]

@Luna

- None of what you said factors in character combo rate, which would dictate a universal loss of damage regardless of action taken. And the frame data doesn't show any special prorates, except on 2C follow-up to Revolver Blast.

[LunaKage]

That's because it doesn't have to factor in character combo rate.

 

Just because a raw Fenrir, or a Raw Muzzle Filter does a certain amount of damage, that doesn't mean that the damage dealt is the move's base damage.

[legacy49i]

What you just said makes no sense and does NOT follow the equation. According to the wiki, and according to the basic rules of the game, every successive move will lose a percentage of damage per each character's predefined combo rate, unless that move has special prorate properties.

Also, any raw move WILL do base damage by the very definition.

Something is clearly missing from either the wiki's combo equation or Noel's frame data table.

[Sashi]

214A doesn't do 1600 base, though. It could be like 3k with 0.0001 P1 on first hit or something with a minimum damage of 1600. Similar proration could be possible with Fenrir. When the combo starts from 5C, you could be just ignoring the bad P1 from the first hit of those moves and only applying P2 and combo rate.

 

EDIT: Obviously those numbers I gave are wrong, though, 'cause that would make other stuff not make sense.

 

EDIT: Do we actually have the complete frame data for 1.1?

[legacy49i]

P1 only matters on the first move of the combo.  P1 of every other move goes ignored.  P2 is used on every other move when factoring damage.

 

5C has a P1 of 100%, so there is no loss of damage from it's P value.  Muzzle Flitter has a P2 of 100%.  So if you did 5C - Muzzle Flitter, they would both do full, unprorated damage.  HOWEVER, the character combo rate would dictate MF only doing 80% of it's full damage, according to the equation.   But even that's not true, because it actually GAINS 15% damage.

 

And as far as I can tell, there is no 1.1 frame data.

 

Also, even if MF has a higher base damage than 1600, and the first hit of 0 damage was factored in, it's still a mathematical impossibility.  Since we're dealing with percentages, and Noel's combo rate is 80%, there will ALWAYS be a loss of damage.

 

Edit:  There SHOULD always be a loss of damage.  So something is missing.

 

Edit Again:  I just realized that the P values are meaningless on 1.0 data, since MF always does 100% damage.  I really need 1.1 data for MF to actually make any sense of this.  Also, does the stream of bullets on Fenrir all count as 1 attack, or does proration effect each bullet individually?

[LunaKage]

You're silly.

 

If Muzzle Filter did, lets say, 2500 base damage. at 70% P1, the first hit would automatically cut down the damage of the second hit to 1750, before even factoring in her combo rate.

 

So with a 5C P1 of 100, and MF P2 of 100, then the reason why 5C > MF does more damage is because it's only being prorated by the combo rate, and by the P2 of 5C, since the first hit of a combo uses both it's P1 and P2.

 

"Also, any raw move WILL do base damage by the very definition."

OK, so by what you're saying, since 2C has a base damage of 420, it will do 840 if both hits connect? Because it doesn't.

[legacy49i]

2C has 2 hits, and each hit has separate base damage.

 

But that brings us to another issue:  If a move has multiple hits, is each hit calculated separately, or is the move considered a single move?  And this is even more important on moves where multiple hits are a matter of fact, like Muzzle Flitter, where it's impossible to not get both hits.  It's all or nothing.

[Errol]

that is pretty simple. the frame data specifies how many times a move with multiple hits prorates.

 

if a move with multiple hits prorates only once, then the 1+nth hits all suffer from the proration. 10x100 dmg, p2 of 90(1), for example, would do effective damage of 100,90x9 within a combo.

 

outside of a combo, it would be more like 100, 63x9. (character combo proration value)

[LunaKage]

2C has 2 hits, and each hit has separate base damage.

OK, now think about that, what else is two hits? Muzzle Filter. First hit and second hit have different base damage.

 

It's true that up until now, the Base damage of the second hit was the damage it always did, but that's because Muzzle Filter never used to get prorated. But, since we don't have the new frame data for Muzzle Filter, we no longer know the base damage of the second hit, the way I've been explaining it is the only way they could have made it work like that, the only other way would be if 5C had bonus proration, but it doesn't, since I've tested it on multiple different combos.

[legacy49i]

But how would you explain Fenrir doing the same damage after 5C and also after 5C - MF? The MF HAS to inflict some loss on the combo. Unless MF ignores character combo rate. Which I suppose is possible, since our data is out of date. I guess I'd have to test if MF causes loss on different combos.

I'll get to the bottom of this if it kills me!!!

[LunaKage]

That might be the case, MF has always been a weird move.

[legacy49i]

If it does, then that's pretty significant, because it means that using it won't affect the damage of any of the moves that follow it, unless it's the first move (shitty P1).

[Sashi]

Well, I don't know about significant, 'cause it's already a given that if it's possible, go into 214A.

[legacy49i]

Well, my mentality before was:  1500 guaranteed damage.

 

Now that damage is scaled, I just figured it would work like any other move.  If everything I think is true, then now you get 1000 minimum damage, and no effect on scaling whatsoever afterward.  Even though the attack itself can lose damage, nothing after it will.  So it makes no difference where it occurs within a combo, so long as it happens at all.

 

Edit:  What I said probably didn't make sense.  I don't mean that nothing after it loses damage.  I mean that MF is not factored into damage scaling afterward.  So it's basically free, inconsequential damage.

 

Edit again:  If 1.0 info is correct, then even though you always get 1500 damage, it would still scale every attack afterwards by Noel's 80% combo rate.  If my theories on 1.1 info are true, then even though you're only getting 1000 minimum damage, you're gaining back damage on every attack afterward by about 20%.

[LunaKage]

Nothing has really changed about how Muzzle Scales the rest of the combo. Take for example our character specific 6B corner combo:

 

6B > 5D > d.5C > d.6C > d.4D > d.6C > 214A > 5B > 5C > sj.C > j.D > d.5C > d.6A > d.5C > 22

 

In CP1.0, Muzzle FIlter did 1500 in this combo, and the combo did 5k

in CP1.1 Muzzle Filter does 1000 in this combo, and the combo does 4.5k

 

Only a 500 damage loss to Muzzle Filter, and only a 500 damage loss to the combo.

[legacy49i]

If that's the case, then it must have always ignored combo rate.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I don't think I have ever experienced fear and rage at the same time when I got hit by d.6C and then proceeded to nearly get 6K'd meterless, then find out the move has a P2 of 99.

[LunaKage]

Yeah, that's a fun combo.

 

Hakumen is really the only character where hitting a raw d.6C is viable, due to her 6D(Activates Hakumen counter) > d.4D(Causes counter hitbox to whiff) > d.6C (Hits Hakumen) chain.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Oh naw, this was Ragna. One baited 5B...led to all of that.

[LunaKage]

See, now that shouldn't have worked lol. Ragna must have been getting too trigger happy.

[Appledash-]

Is there a good video that shows her current combo routes? I like reading notation as much as the next guy (been studying the combo thread) but having a visual guide is always nice.

Sent from my RM-917_nam_usa_100 using Tapatalk

[Ayane]

#WhensLunaCMV

 

TBH her bnbs are pretty simple midscreen it's like. How do i get to j.C>j.D from here. Then it's like is this starter long enough for d.6B>d.6C>d.2D>d.6B>22C>66>6C>stuff? In the corner it's just can I fit BT and AT into this combo or should i just BT>6C>6B>22B or do the SMP 22B combo etc. IDK maybe it's just so engrained into me I don't have to think about it anymore lol. There are lots of non CMV 1.1 videos of her though if u just want to see what her combos look like.