[CP] Match Finder/GG Thread

[Henjin]

Well yea they are mad... but i wouldnt be mad with a chip on my shoulder. I would be feelin gud... unless i had no arms..... yea i would be pissed.

[Qu_Ane]

I thought it meant like ice. You know like hyperthermia. I'd imagine you'd be numb from that though, not angry. Still, I've never been so sexually offended in my life. Fornication is a holy and sacred thing. Why was the term so desecrated for the sake of venting one's anger? I can't...ugh. Lord bless my catholic soul. IDK if I can stay in this thread anymore.

[heavymetalmixer]

I thought it meant like ice. You know like hyperthermia. I'd imagine you'd be numb from that though, not angry. Still, I've never been so sexually offended in my life. Fornication is a holy and sacred thing. Why was the term so desecrated for the sake of venting one's anger? I can't...ugh. Lord bless my catholic soul. IDK if I can stay in this thread anymore.

 

The F-word is the most used in the english language, and trust me if I tell you that I've seen worse cases of overusing that word.

[susano]

Um...wow...so um...okay.'

 

GGs to a few people I've played. I'm super rusty and trying to mash grim reapers with Mu is just plain silly. I hope to brush up for Extend and start with a clearer mind to improve.

[Errol]

1) You were talking about running her game plan. That involves the corner mixup. If it's just getting you into the corner and then that's it, then it's not really "I would have won if it I didn't mess up." You're assuming the mixup being successful as part of it.

 

2) Well, I don't know. We're talking about every set across every game. That's a lot of games lost because of combo drops. How many combos is it possible to drop. My whole point was, you're wrong, it's not just combo drops. You are selling yourself short by picking such a trivial thing to base your analysis on, so you will give up the chance to improve and pick out the real mistakes. It's like if I just said, "well, any match I lost was because I didn't do Hakumen's optimal combos" instead of eating a mixup or someone's neutral game.

 

It's not just combo drops, but it's mostly technical stuff. I never said it was just combo drops.  There are some things in neutral, for sure. But neutral is nebulous. Neutral is not set in stone, it's very difficult. And, Neutral revolves around risk:reward. if risk:reward is shot because of execution, that you can lose with a winning neutral strategy.  Make sense?  Yes I know 'If you're not winning it's not a winning strategy'. The problem is, that there is a *route* towards 'ideal' Rachel play that I strive for. That's what I'm playing for. The issues I have around that stick out like a sore thumb.

 

To lay it out

1. Combo Drops (relatively minor, used illustratively)

2. Pressure Drops

Much larger - Things like messing up jump direction in pressure, or messing up wind direction. Going for fuzzy but going slightly too late and it resulting in a normal jump. Or leaving gaps where there shouldn't be a gap.  You know how difficult Rachel is to block. Messing this up can result in taking 4k+ damage instead of doing 4k damage. Think of starting a match with 6k life and your opponent starts with 16k.  Messing this up once is game-changing.

3. Oki Drops

The biggest (against you, against most other people, pressure drops are the biggest, or neutral). I'm going to lay this out very clearly because Rachel players don't know how Rachel's Oki works.

 

3C>frog>

 

Wait to see what the opponent does>

 

Opponent touches the ground, does not emergency tech> delay 2a. This beats quick wake-up, rolls, and staying on the ground, on reaction.

Opponent touches the ground, emergency techs > You're reacting to what he does. You decide after the tech whether you want to press a button (5b), or not press a button (bait a dp).

 

Everything here is completely doable on reaction. There are no judgment calls to be made if you can react correctly. This is fundamental Rachel oki theory.

 

3C>Pumpkin>

 

Same as above, but when you emergency tech, on reaction j.A. delay wind 2d. This beats every option you have except for yukikaze. I learned this setup from N-O.

 

The point here is that, executing Rachel's oki game here, does not depend on the opponent even a tiny little bit. It depends on your reacting correctly. With any decent amount of lag, it's impossible. With no lag, it's certainly possible. I'm not 100% accurate at this even offline. But there is NOT EVER any guessing, choices, or judgment involved. If I'm playing a bad connection, I will resort to other strategies because it is either impossible or the accuracy goes down massively.

 

 

--------------------------------

 

4. Predictability in blockstrings.  Honestly, this doesn't hardly come into play against you. It does come into play against NothingCells, or Toan, because a. Nothingcells blocks (we have historically had a very good connection, 4 bars), or B. Toan has no options to punish small mistakes so it plays the same either way.

When this is an issue, I can identify it as an issue. Sometimes it is an issue, sometimes it isn't - that's not always so easy to judge.  In General, players should be able to block Rachel more than 50% of the time, nearing 70%. The reason is that while Rachel's mixups are complete 50/50s, Rachel players do not take either option half the time.  the overhead option is much safer and leads to continued pressure. going for lows can allow a chance for the opponent to escape (But not for Hakumen.)

 

5. Neutral. Same as 4. #2 and #3 dwarf this. You have the perception that you win in neutral against me.  My perception is that you win in neutral part of the time against me. I believe that you think you 'win in neutral', because the reward I get when I win in neutral is much lower than it should be because of #2 and #3. In my mind, My neutral against Hakumen is ok, but, like all matchups it could use improving.  Neutral is the biggest issue vs Toan.

 

6. Defense. Relatively speaking, I think I do ok on defense (Give no fucks tsubaki play aside). I make reads, I instant block, I tech throws, I don't do any of this perfectly. Sometimes I get blown up by stuff, and sometimes I get out.  Its hard to identify what # this lands at, because as we all know, it's more important in this game to be running your offense than it is to be defending.

 

 

So, here's how I identify my trouble points with some people:

 

Mac:

2, 3, 1 (Hakumen is a uniquely hard character to combo for Rachel, standard midscreen combos do not work, things are tighter).

Toan:

5, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 (neutral neutral neutral)

Mucky:

2, 3 (we have the worst connection on the planet)

NothingCells:

4, 6, 3, 2, 1 (Ragna causes 5c to whiff after Iris a lot.)

BoltOfShadow:

3, 2, 4, 5, 6 (bolt also likes to try to find mistakes in applying oki and pressure a lot. we have a pretty good connection. In my memory, our sets range from me winning 40-50% if I'm off my game or it is laggy (either resulting in technical execution issues) to 90% if I'm on my game in a smooth connection.  Good player, he's the biggest person helping me overcome some of these execution errors because he tests me in an environment I can do something about it.

 

 

So, maybe you won't agree, but I try to look at anywhere I make mistakes.  And in my case, against you, I think I have correctly identified what they are. You disagree. But, we'll have to agree to disagree then.

[someonewhodied]

Ok so.

If you think something is dumb, SHOW them why its dumb. Blow them up for it. If it looks stupid, but it works and you can't seem to blow it up, even if its "netplay BS", its fair game. If there are legit shenanigans like lag spikes, don't play the guy.

[Henjin]

It's not just combo drops, but it's mostly technical stuff. I never said it was just combo drops. There are some things in neutral, for sure. But neutral is nebulous. Neutral is not set in stone, it's very difficult. And, Neutral revolves around risk:reward. if risk:reward is shot because of execution, that you can lose with a winning neutral strategy. Make sense? Yes I know 'If you're not winning it's not a winning strategy'. The problem is, that there is a *route* towards 'ideal' Rachel play that I strive for. That's what I'm playing for. The issues I have around that stick out like a sore thumb.

To lay it out

1. Combo Drops (relatively minor, used illustratively)

2. Pressure Drops

Much larger - Things like messing up jump direction in pressure, or messing up wind direction. Going for fuzzy but going slightly too late and it resulting in a normal jump. Or leaving gaps where there shouldn't be a gap. You know how difficult Rachel is to block. Messing this up can result in taking 4k+ damage instead of doing 4k damage. Think of starting a match with 6k life and your opponent starts with 16k. Messing this up once is game-changing.

3. Oki Drops

The biggest (against you, against most other people, pressure drops are the biggest, or neutral). I'm going to lay this out very clearly because Rachel players don't know how Rachel's Oki works.

3C>frog>

Wait to see what the opponent does>

Opponent touches the ground, does not emergency tech> delay 2a. This beats quick wake-up, rolls, and staying on the ground, on reaction.

Opponent touches the ground, emergency techs > You're reacting to what he does. You decide after the tech whether you want to press a button (5b), or not press a button (bait a dp).

Everything here is completely doable on reaction. There are no judgment calls to be made if you can react correctly. This is fundamental Rachel oki theory.

3C>Pumpkin>

Same as above, but when you emergency tech, on reaction j.A. delay wind 2d. This beats every option you have except for yukikaze. I learned this setup from N-O.

The point here is that, executing Rachel's oki game here, does not depend on the opponent even a tiny little bit. It depends on your reacting correctly. With any decent amount of lag, it's impossible. With no lag, it's certainly possible. I'm not 100% accurate at this even offline. But there is NOT EVER any guessing, choices, or judgment involved. If I'm playing a bad connection, I will resort to other strategies because it is either impossible or the accuracy goes down massively.

--------------------------------

4. Predictability in blockstrings. Honestly, this doesn't hardly come into play against you. It does come into play against NothingCells, or Toan, because a. Nothingcells blocks (we have historically had a very good connection, 4 bars), or B. Toan has no options to punish small mistakes so it plays the same either way.

When this is an issue, I can identify it as an issue. Sometimes it is an issue, sometimes it isn't - that's not always so easy to judge. In General, players should be able to block Rachel more than 50% of the time, nearing 70%. The reason is that while Rachel's mixups are complete 50/50s, Rachel players do not take either option half the time. the overhead option is much safer and leads to continued pressure. going for lows can allow a chance for the opponent to escape (But not for Hakumen.)

5. Neutral. Same as 4. #2 and #3 dwarf this. You have the perception that you win in neutral against me. My perception is that you win in neutral part of the time against me. I believe that you think you 'win in neutral', because the reward I get when I win in neutral is much lower than it should be because of #2 and #3. In my mind, My neutral against Hakumen is ok, but, like all matchups it could use improving. Neutral is the biggest issue vs Toan.

6. Defense. Relatively speaking, I think I do ok on defense (Give no fucks tsubaki play aside). I make reads, I instant block, I tech throws, I don't do any of this perfectly. Sometimes I get blown up by stuff, and sometimes I get out. Its hard to identify what # this lands at, because as we all know, it's more important in this game to be running your offense than it is to be defending.

So, here's how I identify my trouble points with some people:

Mac:

2, 3, 1 (Hakumen is a uniquely hard character to combo for Rachel, standard midscreen combos do not work, things are tighter).

Toan:

5, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 (neutral neutral neutral)

Mucky:

2, 3 (we have the worst connection on the planet)

NothingCells:

4, 6, 3, 2, 1 (Ragna causes 5c to whiff after Iris a lot.)

BoltOfShadow:

3, 2, 4, 5, 6 (bolt also likes to try to find mistakes in applying oki and pressure a lot. we have a pretty good connection. In my memory, our sets range from me winning 40-50% if I'm off my game or it is laggy (either resulting in technical execution issues) to 90% if I'm on my game in a smooth connection. Good player, he's the biggest person helping me overcome some of these execution errors because he tests me in an environment I can do something about it.

So, maybe you won't agree, but I try to look at anywhere I make mistakes. And in my case, against you, I think I have correctly identified what they are. You disagree. But, we'll have to agree to disagree then.

This is way to fucking long for my interest. Can any one simplify?

[Errol]

Ok so.

If you think something is dumb, SHOW them why its dumb. Blow them up for it. If it looks stupid, but it works and you can't seem to blow it up, even if its "netplay BS", its fair game. If there are legit shenanigans like lag spikes, don't play the guy.

You are, of course, correct. A lot of the mistakes I make are simply my own fault, for not reacting fast enough, etc. Some of it mixes with lag. In General I think that lag just lowers my accuracy rate here. I can't perform 100% offline. in 4 bars, it's a tiny bit worse. in 2 bars, it's significantly worse (but doesn't neccessarily matter depending on the matchup)

 

It's like, fucking up on offense against Nu, you have a good amount of slack anyway. Fuck up on offense even the slightest bit against Hakumen or Tager, and you're dead. Unless you want to try to play their guessing game - which is a losing game, with differing health totals and rewards.

[Qu_Ane]

The bad thing about internet sarcasm is how clarifying it destroys the purpose. In another life I may have gotten my 2 secs of internet post fame on dustloop. In hindsight if I had lurked here less someone may have caught on from knowing the way I post. The worst thing about it is that my sarcasm is obviously not funny at all, else someone would have caught on regardless of the latter fact. A pretty rude awakening for me...I mean I know I'm no Dave Chappelle but damn...

[someonewhodied]

You are, of course, correct. A lot of the mistakes I make are simply my own fault, for not reacting fast enough, etc. Some of it mixes with lag. In General I think that lag just lowers my accuracy rate here. I can't perform 100% offline. in 4 bars, it's a tiny bit worse. in 2 bars, it's significantly worse (but doesn't neccessarily matter depending on the matchup)

 

It's like, fucking up on offense against Nu, you have a good amount of slack anyway. Fuck up on offense even the slightest bit against Hakumen or Tager, and you're dead. Unless you want to try to play their guessing game - which is a losing game, with differing health totals and rewards.

 

 

Someone isn't OSing hakumen's counters :p

you have i think 5 or 6 frames after activating a counter to block it?

like you can legit safejump a counter or do a long range normal into a short range one to retract your hurtbox.

Its not a guessing game at all.

Its not easy to do but in a good connection it shouldn't be a guessing game till yukikaze comes into play.

 

 

I'll agree with you on tager though.

[Errol]

Someone isn't OSing hakumen's counters :p

you have i think 5 or 6 frames after activating a counter to block it?

like you can legit safejump a counter or do a long range normal into a short range one to retract your hurtbox.

Its not a guessing game at all.

Its not easy to do but in a good connection it shouldn't be a guessing game till yukikaze comes into play.

 

 

I'll agree with you on tager though.

 

I'm trying to OS hakumen's counters but failing. Rachel's got setups but they're not super easy to execute.

 

Rachel doesn't have safe jumps (60F total jump yea? though she can do some wind safe jumps)

 

Rachel set up is 3C>Pumpkin>

 

Rising J.A> Delay 2D>JB or 2B

 

the j.A hits 2d, hits out of jump startup, hits 5d and 6D before active, and the pumpkin puts him in blockstun.

 

Bit of a mistake and game over tho.

 

Granted, the thing I am messing up is not so much executing the above, but rather reacting to teching properly.

[Nemesis]

Bit of a mistake and game over tho.

 

Doesnt this describe any fight vs a good hakumen tho? not just eating a Drive counter...

[mAc Chaos]

5. Neutral. Same as 4. #2 and #3 dwarf this. You have the perception that you win in neutral against me.  My perception is that you win in neutral part of the time against me. I believe that you think you 'win in neutral', because the reward I get when I win in neutral is much lower than it should be because of #2 and #3. In my mind, My neutral against Hakumen is ok, but, like all matchups it could use improving.  Neutral is the biggest issue vs Toan.

Welp, time to pull the Errol card. See, the risk reward in my view is actually stacked against me. Because I only do my 2k combos instead of 6k. So if I am beating someone it means I had to outplay them to get a lot more mistakes from them than I would normally otherwise need to get. With that in mind, your risk/reward is pretty good. But you can play that game forever. That's what I meant by, "Well I can just say that I only lose because I'm not doing optimal combos," and that it's not really a good enough reason.

 

Your defense is fine.

 

I know all about how Rachel's oki works. Know thy enemy, son. Also I totally agree that screwing up your oki reaction loses you games, I just don't think it's the main reason. There are plenty of matches where you pull it off fine but lose anyway.

For Rachel pressure, I pretty much block all of it since you always do the same up-down-up-down airtight string, but inevitably get hit by jA anyway. But it's still worth not getting hit by a low. What do you mean by Hakumen not being able to escape if you go for a low?

 

As for the Haku/Nu/Tager thing, I actually find it way harder to deal with Nu than Hakumen and Tager. At least with Hakumen and Tager, it's a guessing game. That means you can outguess them and it comes down to purely mindgames. But with Nu, all she has to do is tag you once with a random sword while you try to jump, knock you full screen, and you're just fucked. Now she has the life lead and you have to play her game of chasing her down while she keeps capitalizing on every random hit she can. It's pure neutral and you can't just read her mind to get the answer.

 

Anyway, I know we are not going to agree on the points, but I enjoyed talking about it nonetheless.

[someonewhodied]

I'm trying to OS hakumen's counters but failing. Rachel's got setups but they're not super easy to execute.

 

Rachel doesn't have safe jumps (60F total jump yea? though she can do some wind safe jumps)

 

Rachel set up is 3C>Pumpkin>

 

Rising J.A> Delay 2D>JB or 2B

 

the j.A hits 2d, hits out of jump startup, hits 5d and 6D before active, and the pumpkin puts him in blockstun.

 

Bit of a mistake and game over tho.

 

Granted, the thing I am messing up is not so much executing the above, but rather reacting to teching properly.

 

 

Yeah you need wind to do the safejumps properly iirc.

 

You could do 3D1AB i guess, i mean thats the DP bait anyways though you need additional wind to do mixup afterwards and you need to react to the pumpkin making them block if you want gapless mixup. Not netplay viable.

[Errol]

Doesnt this describe any fight vs a good hakumen tho? not just eating a Drive counter...

 

yeah. You fuck up in neutral and the game can be over in a moment. Mistakes vs Hakumen are very nasty. Mistakes as Rachel are particularly nasty. And pretty easy to fuck up as Rachel (HARD character). He requires you to play at a very high level or Life isn't going to be fun.

 

The overwhelming majority of my mistakes against Mac come in Oki. Followed by during pressure.  Which is why I focus on them, and say that's the biggest reason for my losses vs mac.

 

If I had to say, my biggest issue against you, would be neutral. and defense. followed by oki I guess.

[Nemesis]

If I had to say, my biggest issue against you, would be neutral. and defense. followed by oki I guess.

When your saying this are you meaning Your biggest issue vs me (mu-12) is your Neutral (ability to footsie and position yourself in in an advantageous circumstance)

Defense ( you ability to Avoid pressure and block pressure when you have too)

 

Oki (The choices/setups you make on me after ive been knocked down - etc)

 

 Or what?

[Errol]

Welp, time to pull the Errol card. See, the risk reward in my view is actually stacked against me. Because I only do my 2k combos instead of 6k. So if I am beating someone it means I had to outplay them to get a lot more mistakes from them than I would normally otherwise need to get. But you can play that game forever. That's what I meant by, "Well I can just say that I only lose because I'm not doing optimal combos," and that it's not really a good enough reason.

 

Your defense is fine.

 

I know all about how Rachel's oki works. Know thy enemy, son. Also I totally agree that screwing up your oki reaction loses you games, I just don't think it's the main reason. There are plenty of matches where you pull it off fine but lose anyway.

For Rachel pressure, I pretty much block all of it since you always do the same up-down-up-down airtight string, but inevitably get hit by jA anyway. But it's still worth not getting hit by a low. What do you mean by Hakumen not being able to escape if you go for a low?

 

As for the Haku/Nu/Tager thing, I actually find it way harder to deal with Nu than Hakumen and Tager. At least with Hakumen and Tager, it's a guessing game. That means you can outguess them and it comes down to purely mindgames. But with Nu, all she has to do is tag you once with a random sword while you try to jump, knock you full screen, and you're just fucked. Now she has the life lead and you have to play her game of chasing her down while she keeps capitalizing on every random hit she can. It's pure neutral and you can't just read her mind to get the answer.

 

Anyway, I know we are not going to agree on the points, but I enjoyed talking about it nonetheless.

 

It's totally fine to me if you want to say you could be doing 6k combos instead of 2k combos and that it is a flaw on your part. I won't disagree with you. Although, you don't even try to do those combos, you've instead decided you would rather not do them. So, I guess that's a conscience choice on your part.

 

BTW, I completely forgot when we played that I should be using j.B IOH against Hakumen. Anyway, like I said, I *EXPECT* players to be able to block rachel's highs or lows 70%ish of the time. I INTENTIONALLY do more overheads because of the followups.

 

Normally going for a low means doing something like 5B>2B>(5B>)6B.  At this point, you can do 5D3C (can end pressure if blocked), or 3DJA.  3DJA has a gap on crouching at further distances that can be dp'd in.  Hakumen's crouching hitbox is fat so there is no gap.

 

The reason I said that you might not understand Rachel's Oki is because you said I have to guess what you're going to do on oki.  The answer to that is, I don't. the oki plan is completely reactable. The truth behind that then is maybe, At my skill level, or with our connection, I have to guess. But fuck that.

 

When I pulled off my oki plan fine then I didn't lose. Or, I never got to pull it off because I never took you to the corner. Or, I did it fine and you bursted and won after that. Or, didn't guess yukikaze. So, yeah, I definitely did lose to things, which are totally legit. But, my biggest issues against you are still the ones I said.

[Errol]

When your saying this are you meaning Your biggest issue vs me (mu-12) is your Neutral (ability to footsie and position yourself in in an advantageous circumstance)

Defense ( you ability to Avoid pressure and block pressure when you have too)

 

Oki (The choices/setups you make on me after ive been knocked down - etc)

 

 Or what?

Sorry, Yes. Neutral against you is very difficult. I do feel like I should be able to block your mixups better than I have been. The after that somewhere (distant third), is mistakes in oki against you (perhaps not punishing quick wakeup, etc.)

[mAc Chaos]

The reason I said that you might not understand Rachel's Oki is because you said I have to guess what you're going to do on oki. The answer to that is, I don't. the oki plan is completely reactable. The truth behind that then is maybe, At my skill level, or with our connection, I have to guess. But fuck that.

When I pulled off my oki plan fine then I didn't lose. Or, I never got to pull it off because I never took you to the corner. Or, I did it fine and you bursted and won after that. Or, didn't guess yukikaze. So, yeah, I definitely did lose to things, which are totally legit. But, my biggest issues against you are still the ones I said.

No, no I mean, after you immobilize me, you still have to do mixup to hit me, right? And when you choose to do a mixup, it's because you are guessing (hoping) that I will get hit by it. Otherwise you wouldn't be trying to do that off of your oki. So it is not an automatic process, it still involves judgment and an exchange between the opponent where they can influence the outcome. And so once again we're back to execution not being the only factor.

So basically what you just said in your second paragraph about burst / yukikaze, etc.

[Nemesis]

Sorry, Yes. Neutral against you is very difficult. I do feel like I should be able to block your mixups better than I have been. The after that somewhere (distant third), is mistakes in oki against you (perhaps not punishing quick wakeup, etc.)

Im rather impressed by your memory of our matches... Its been some time since we have had sets and you still speak with some clarity to your issues and lol my quick getups

[Errol]

Yeah, you like quick getup. though not as much as badlime.

 

Anyway, I remember how I lost our matches and it was definitely primarily due to failing in neutral and then getting hit and dying. It was a lot better than the first time we played in EX though.

 

Though at some point my connection seems to have gotten bad and we can't really play much anymore. It wasn't always this way.

[Nemesis]

Yeah, you like quick getup. though not as much as badlime.

 

Anyway, I remember how I lost our matches and it was definitely primarily due to failing in neutral and then getting hit and dying. It was a lot better than the first time we played in EX though.

 

Though at some point my connection seems to have gotten bad and we can't really play much anymore. It wasn't always this way.

Obviously you should stop Router kicking then~

 

tho Yea i agree I remember our games being clear... but the more "recent" ones were not... Maybe things will improve with the next iteration ( they often do...)

 

I still think they deliberately nerf the netcode slowly over time so they can claim "new and improved netcode!" for the next iteration - and it always seems to be somehow clearer than before... like frogs in boilin water...

[mAc Chaos]

its gotten worse every game

[Nemesis]

its gotten worse every game

I always thought it got better... I dont really know then

[Henjin]

I feel like 1v1'ing som1 for a few games.... anyone?