[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion v.2 (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[LegendaryRath]

Is air hit TC > Valiant possible on her midscreen? I couldn't get it to work on her at all in training mode or in my matches.

Unfortunately the answer is no

TC > Valiant does not work midscreen on Litchi, Rachel, Platinum, and Nu-13.

edit: At some point I want to make a short doc for combos that goes in depth about all of the character specific combo routes. There's so many that it's hard to keep track of what's possible against each character.

Edited February 4, 2014 by LegendaryRath

[TheArm05]

We getting buffed in the patch:

"During overdrive, D attacks will now cancel"

This will make our overdrive combos go from easy > easier?? I guess this is an interesting change. I wonder how fast you can cancel them. Maybe this means we get stronger mixup with 5D > 6D/3D in OD. Honestly it just seems like this isn't going to change much but at least it means we aren't nerfed yet haha.

Also I agree we need a reference on char specific shit. Being able to do stuff like air hit TCL > IAD j.AB > 5B >stuff is so much stronger than simply 3D when it works.

[zeth07]

We getting buffed in the patch:

"During overdrive, D attacks will now cancel"

This will make our overdrive combos go from easy > easier?? I guess this is an interesting change. I wonder how fast you can cancel them. Maybe this means we get stronger mixup with 5D > 6D/3D in OD. Honestly it just seems like this isn't going to change much but at least it means we aren't nerfed yet haha.

Also I agree we need a reference on char specific shit. Being able to do stuff like air hit TCL > IAD j.AB > 5B >stuff is so much stronger than simply 3D when it works.

There is literally an entire section in the combo thread.

[fogelstrom]

Hmm... with the D moves being generally slow I wonder how large the gaps will be. Even so with gaps people will be able to reversal between each hit in those cases. I would personally rather spend OD on OD cancels when having a point applied already. So from my perspective this change allowes for more damage quicker when going into OD wich in turn will probably make ODc very good for Azrael, better than now already that is.

[TheArm05]

Well I know that. Sorry bad example on my part I guess but you get what I meant. We could go more in depth with it.

Stuff we could expand on like j.A combo stuff on standing characters and fuzzy guard j.As. Kokonoe isn't in there either. Although that is pretty much you can't do shit after the TCL.

[Kinkuli]

One thing to keep in mind is that IF (really big IF here) they happen to add new moves to Azrael's repertoire, then there might be more routes where one could abuse the OD change. In this context however it doesn't feel like that of a big deal. Easy combos just got easier. Ofc it's also possible they dick around with how D moves work when you hit weakpoints with them. Not really seeing them doing this though.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Kinkuli

[zeth07]

The other thing to consider is that it might make them special cancelable. Knowing you can get weakpoints even on block means it would become much easier to get unblockable BHS as the opponent would be practically helpless from it (outside of CA / Burst anyway).

Normally you'd use OD if you at least have one weakpoint already applied, which means if they become SCable all you'd have to do is throw out the other weakpoint and regardless of hit/block you could then do BHS unblockable immediately from it.

Doesn't seem like a huge deal now but it at least opens up more opportunities to use it if true.

[LegendaryRath]

There is literally an entire section in the combo thread.

I'm happy it's there and it's something most character threads don't include at all. I mean no offense but I feel it could be expanded on a little. Azrael has so much more combo potential than the majority of the cast and it's a shame that more people don't make use of that simply because they don't know what works on which characters. At some point I want to make a video that goes a little more in depth.

edit: if nothing else, it would be nice to have a visual reference for that section

[Lucalibur]

The other thing to consider is that it might make them special cancelable. Knowing you can get weakpoints even on block means it would become much easier to get unblockable BHS as the opponent would be practically helpless from it (outside of CA / Burst anyway).

Normally you'd use OD if you at least have one weakpoint already applied, which means if they become SCable all you'd have to do is throw out the other weakpoint and regardless of hit/block you could then do BHS unblockable immediately from it.

Doesn't seem like a huge deal now but it at least opens up more opportunities to use it if true.

Not only this, but it would make getting a second weakpoint mid-combo much easier. Something like 6D>5D>214D would probably be followup-able if 5D was special cancellable. Same for 3D into no weakpoint valiant so that it hits on the latter active frames and we can 5A\5B after it. There is a lot of combo potential in OD if that is the case, because not only can we setup unblockables a lot more easily like you said, but it would mean that with a single weakpoint we could apply the other one and still keep the combo going, using the new weakpoint during OD for extreme manliness comboing.

[HoudiniJr100]

hearing how he can cancel D attacks into eachother is making me think Azzy niow has slayer-esqe links. (Kinda odd analogy, yes. but it'll make this crazy awesome)

[zeth07]

hearing how he can cancel D attacks into eachother is making me think Azzy niow has slayer-esqe links. (Kinda odd analogy, yes. but it'll make this crazy awesome)

He already has links, and if it is a cancel then it isn't a link.......

[Lucalibur]

He might have worded that wrongly and meant Slayer's Step follow ups? Don't know.

[LegendaryRath]

Regardless of how it turns out, I'm glad they're attempting to make Overdrive more beneficial for Azrael. I'm aware of some uses but I still rarely find myself using it outside of just popping it to add 300 damage to BHS.

[Lucalibur]

280 damage actually. :3

Nah but seriously, I rarely found myself using OD as well. Sometimes I did crossup dash 5A>OD for round end after getting a weakpoint or to get fancy with OD Scud round\match ender(P.S: I love Scud's animation). OD being made useful in more varied situations like Litchi's OD is would be really nice, though I am probably still gonna keep my burst with me for the most part. Just in case.

[Kinkuli]

The "problem" with Azrael OD is, for me atleast, A. You lose burst which can make your life hard in certain match ups. B. It's hard to confirm to anything good aside from punishes to really unsafe moves. One thing they could do to make OD more tempting would be adding ODc to gustaf. This way one could hitconfirm and still be in range to do OD combos even from farther ranges and not just from in your face situations. But then again that's not how Azrael works so meh.

Also screw dandy step, just add pilebunker!

[LegendaryRath]

One thing they could do to make OD more tempting would be adding ODc to gustaf.

Something along those lines would certainly be a big deal, allowing for OD to be used almost like an OMB in persona (to extend or confirm combos not possible otherwise, without needing meter).

Unlikely as it would be to happen, it's a cool idea.

[zeth07]

B. It's hard to confirm to anything good aside from punishes to really unsafe moves. One thing they could do to make OD more tempting would be adding ODc to gustaf. This way one could hitconfirm and still be in range to do OD combos even from farther ranges and not just from in your face situations. But then again that's not how Azrael works so meh.

For B, I think it is pretty easy since as long as you already have a weakpoint applied (and 90% or less HP) you can just go right into a nice damaging combo off 5BB, easy confirm. With less HP it really opens up Azrael's metagame cause you can keep the UW applied and end with LW to have both. Then typically you'd have 50% by then and can go right into 5C>BHS unblockable. Even more heat = RC after BHS>combo>death for ANY character.

That's a HUGE comeback factor that's really easy to do with very plausible circumstances.

EDIT: Just to put things into perspective with numbers, and just using "basic" combos not even the best ones.

At 90% HP / no Heat:

5A UW BnB + 5BB OD combo = ~7,000 DM + UW reapplied + 50% Heat = More than 50% life on ANY character, next time you even touch Carl/Tao/low health characters they're dead by any combo confirm into BHS (ex.5A>5BB>BHS).

At <=59% HP / no Heat:

5A UW BnB + 5BB OD combo (end with LW) + 5C>BHS unblockable = ~10,000 DM = Some characters are at 10-20% HP left, Carl/Tao/etc. are DEAD regardless if they get hit by 5C or not.

At <=59% HP / >=49% Heat:

5A UW BnB + 5BB OD combo (end with LW) + 5C>BHS unblockable + RC>3D>combo = ~13,000+ DM = Every character is dead regardless if they get hit by 5C or not. If they don't get hit by 5C you'll need to do a decent combo off 3D but won't even finish it before Tager is dead.

Of course they can burst mostly anywhere or CA the 5C if they're paying attention, but if they don't have a burst or aren't attentive enough to CA they're all dead from a fairly routine set of combos that more or less lead into each other.

Edited February 5, 2014 by zeth07

[LegendaryRath]

Zeth, could you give me an example combo? I'm dense sometimes.

[Kinkuli]

I guess that's true also. However you still need to hit with that 5B and tbh if you opponent isn't sleeping or just derping around, i don't really see it happen that often. Most of the times for me opponents either open up with 2A/5D/throw or from crossup dickery.

And i still believe even if you confirm 5BB you still need to be fairly close for the "optimal" 2C 6D to hit so that you can still continue with 5D? I guess you could just omit it and use TC valiant instead :3. I might have a bit of an hakumen syndrome in this regards . You either get tons of damage or you dont get shit! Though this does give me somethings to think about! Thanks for that zeth!

EDIT: @Rath probably something along 5B > 5BB > ODc > 2C > 6D > 5D > 236D > {6>5C}*4 > 6 > 3C > 6A > 5D to get UW back and if you have more OD time just end with 3D instead i guess.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Kinkuli

[fogelstrom]

Dash through 5A, 5BB, ODc, 2C, 6D... etc works excellent.

Also I don't think there would be any issue at all if you did j.B crossup, 2B, ODc, 2C.... etc

I'm not able to try anything out atm but basically if you have UW applied and hit anything you should be able to get into OD for a nice chunk of unburstable damage.

With that said I suck really hard at using OD since I rage burst 90% of the time for great dishonor.

[zeth07]

Zeth, could you give me an example combo? I'm dense sometimes.

I guess that's true also. However you still need to hit with that 5B and tbh if you opponent isn't sleeping or just derping around, i don't really see it happen that often. Most of the times for me opponents either open up with 2A/5D/throw or from crossup dickery.

And i still believe even if you confirm 5BB you still need to be fairly close for the "optimal" 2C 6D to hit so that you can still continue with 5D? I guess you could just omit it and use TC valiant instead :3. I might have a bit of an hakumen syndrome in this regards . You either get tons of damage or you dont get shit! Though this does give me somethings to think about! Thanks for that zeth!

EDIT: @Rath probably something along 5B > 5BB > ODc > 2C > 6D > 5D > 236D > {6>5C}*4 > 6 > 3C > 6A > 5D to get UW back and if you have more OD time just end with 3D instead i guess.

Yea that's the one I was referring to since it is very easy to do and still does 5k+. I don't remember what my reason was but I was using j.2D for the LW ender, maybe because 3D was whiffing ? or it gained more heat ? but I honestly don't remember. 6D ender does slightly more than 5D but it is negligible, not that it really matters.

One night I was more or less just thinking of a basic scenario that would kill the opponent while using OD and lead into the unblockable from something really simple. Just so happened to relate to this discussion which is why I brought it up.

[Lucalibur]

Depending on the height during valiant, 3D may whiff due to the hitbox being very low to the ground. You can fix that by delaying valiant after 5D or whatever, I guess.

[fogelstrom]

Or confirm the height during the Valiant combo if 3D is going to hit or if you need to do j.2D instead. Where there is a will there is a way.

[Verimeloni]

For 3D to hit you have to time the Valiant really carefully so the opponent is 1 inch from the ground. The reason to this I think is that 3D's hitbox is slightly bigger in the rock part (http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:BBCP_Azrael_3D.png), but because after Valiant you're in the corner (=too close to the opponent), the rock part will go offscreen and thus whiff. I think with a basic OD combo you could actually end with Hornet for the LW, at least if you go straight to Valiant after 6D. Or 2D, if your opponent is low enough (again).

I find myself using OD in combos seldom partly because people actually know you can massacre them if they're not careful, so (if I have OD available) they start using CAs and DPs + RCs a lot in the last round.

OD canceling Gustaf would be great, Valiant/Hornet even better.

[fogelstrom]

Yeah but 3D has 15F recovery whilst Hornet has 33F. You are going to end up with alot worse oki if you hit Hornet in the end. j.2D when 3D won't hit sounds like the best option for me.

If you are really going for OD I think it would be rather with Azrael since you indeed can confirm 5A, 5B rather easily, even online, then just mash that ODc and 2C. Since we have to use few moves with alot of hitstun to confirm for everything else OD shouldn't be much of an issue if people are really serious about wanting to start using it.

One of the main reasons for me now using it is usally if you hit someone and they have a UW you're most likely going to end up with a Valiant combo anyway. Obviously less damage but less damage and a burst saved up (unless for the kill). I don't know... I just like the burst especially since I'm rather backdash happy and could end up getting hit by something huge.