[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion v.2 (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[Lucalibur]

Remember the properties. Hornet floats on hit while 3D knockdowns, which means 3D's recovery is spent while the enemy techs, while Hornet's while they fall down. Hornet actually gives slightly more time to apply properly oki due to that, though J.2D is still the best one for oki, though the one that gives the least damage out of the trio.

[Kinkuli]

So i read dogura's wishes for the next patch and i agree with most of them tbh(Azrael changes, and don't buff arakune!!). https://twitter.com/jiyunaJP/status/430862176518017024/photo/1 you can find them here. One thing that would be REALLY REALLY cool, like dogura says, is that growler wouldn't be punishable ON HIT. I die a bit inside every time i hit tao with it and they just tech and JDs to punish. Soooo stuuupiiiiid.

[Verimeloni]

For B, I think it is pretty easy since as long as you already have a weakpoint applied (and 90% or less HP) you can just go right into a nice damaging combo off 5BB, easy confirm. With less HP it really opens up Azrael's metagame cause you can keep the UW applied and end with LW to have both. Then typically you'd have 50% by then and can go right into 5C>BHS unblockable. Even more heat = RC after BHS>combo>death for ANY character.

That's a HUGE comeback factor that's really easy to do with very plausible circumstances.

If D moves truly can be canceled, just imagine if they can be Valiant/Hornet -canceled. Adding another weakpoint mid-combo and landing big damage would be a piece of cake.

Example: [uW] 5BB > cOD > 2C > 6D > 5D (cancel 5D just after hit)> 214D > 5A > TC > Valiant > ... > 2D/j.2D > BHS

I find myself rarely using 623-Sentinel in real matches, maybe they could 1) give it more GP frames/reduce it's startup (like buff a good move even more duh) 2) make it chargeable like Valiant/Hornet? The other move which I seldom use is 6B, maybe they could make 6B jump-cancelable on hit?

Edited February 6, 2014 by Verimeloni

[Kinkuli]

You already can dash cancel 6B, asking for jc would just be asking for easymode tbh.

[Cheefoo]

So i read dogura's wishes for the next patch and i agree with most of them tbh(Azrael changes, and don't buff arakune!!). https://twitter.com/jiyunaJP/status/430862176518017024/photo/1 you can find them here. One thing that would be REALLY REALLY cool, like dogura says, is that growler wouldn't be punishable ON HIT. I die a bit inside every time i hit tao with it and they just tech and JDs to punish. Soooo stuuupiiiiid.

Hitting with growler should give Azrael a fireball stock in the next patch. Not only would that make it recover safely (assuming it would trigger the projectile-absorbing animation), but it would give him some advantage for actually hitting with it. Blowing the opponent away fullscreen is incredibly counterproductive for Azrael's playstyle, so I think getting a fireball from it should make up for that fact slightly without making his DP too good.

[TheArm05]

Hitting with growler should give Azrael a fireball stock in the next patch.

I thought about this potential change as well. However I think this would be too strong in certain matchups that we never get stocks in (VALKENHAYN). Having stocks against Valk would change that matchup entirely and it would be a huge problem for the wolf.

Hakumen is another that this change would totally turn the matchup on its head and there are certainly others.

Growler/Phalanx was meant as an anti zoner tool to allow Azrael to get in when he would other wise get zoned incredibly easily. This change would turn stocks into an oppressive neutral tool in patient matchups and an anti approach tool against characters who go in.

[Maho]

Well Growler as it is now is pretty bad as a reversal, it trades often, deals weak damage and put Azrael in a bad position most of the time, and just to say, I wouldn't be against Valk getting a huge problem, or even just a real problem for once actually, but I think other solutions could be interesting.

One would be for Growler to do a somewhat vertical launch that would allow for a short combo by RCing it without the need for a combo movie situation (with actual Growler P1, it would range from 1.5 to 2k), make it that normal hit is just safe on hit, CH giving barely an advantage for oki, with that trades might give you a free combo depending on the move that hit you.

And if they think this would be too strong, at least they could make Scud faster so it's a bit better as a reversal.

[Kinkuli]

Yeah growler not blowing opponent away would be nice but i think that if they just change it to be non-punishable on hit, then it's ok. If they do that then i find that growler blowing opponent away is a fair trade off. Getting phalanx from hitting growler would be really cool but it also would be really stupid in some match ups. Though it would give something nice to work with in Valk match up!

Also BB @ Evo2014. I'm probably gonna attend. I still need to figure out stuff like hotel room or if i can get 1 or 2 or 3 people to share room with me.

[fogelstrom]

Man... I guess you all want Azunyan to be SS-tier? I think Growler is really really perfect for Azrael as it sits. It's just perfect for his character. We should rejoice in the fact that we even have a reversal with the second best backdash in the game. I don't think they need to change anything with Azunyan at all. For me personally I'd like TCL to be a normal rekka input perhaps but that's just because I suck at it ^^

[Lucalibur]

No, we just don't want to be punished for 4K and knockdown because we hit the enemy with it but it wasn't a CH.

[LegendaryRath]

If they don't want to increase the hitstun on Growler, then they could just stop giving moves non CH recovery. I'm feeling spiteful :P

[ThatHiroGuy]

Man, I was just doing the ever elusive dash cancel of sentinel dump, but it's so damn restrictive. I wonder if there's any use for it... I've been messing with 6B, it seems to make it easier to dash cancel sent. Maybe 6B>dash forward and catch them throwing out a normal?

Edit: Putting a video in to show people that it can be done, I just don't know how viable it may be! I know I've brought it up before, but I want people to see what it looks like, and maybe someone can polish the technique?

Edit: Video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsAm1ykDEGM

Shitty quality. I really need to stop being lazy and just use my capture card. Anyways the important thing is that you can SEE him (barely) doing it, and the input. The input varies, but it's generally a form of... Dash forward>Down>3+C>UP or 9. It's like fooling the game to not take the quarter circle motion that would normally come out (which is why you see it happen so much) or something.

Edited February 7, 2014 by ThatHiroGuy

[fogelstrom]

No, we just don't want to be punished for 4K and knockdown because we hit the enemy with it but it wasn't a CH.

Yeah but it's only 1 character of the entire cast. But I guess Terumi perhaps would be able to do Ourobos DD on tech. Need to try that out! But still... it's rather stupid yes. I really prefer to RC my Growler against decent people anyway.

[ThatHiroGuy]

Also, I'm probably the only person who wishes they'd take a bit of invincibility out of the backdash for a bit more on the forward dash? I'm probably crazy. It seems like they're going a different route with his changes though.

[Kinkuli]

Yeah but it's only 1 character of the entire cast. But I guess Terumi perhaps would be able to do Ourobos DD on tech. Need to try that out! But still... it's rather stupid yes. I really prefer to RC my Growler against decent people anyway.

I believe other chars can punish it too but the situations are more specific rather than just hitting with it and tao tech jDing it. Also i'm pretty happy where azrael is tbh. Just make the DP unpunishable on normal hit and leave him alone otherwise.

[LegendaryRath]

I really just want the increased growler hitstun so we wont be minus afterwards. It's the worst reversal (imo) in the game because of that. Even Bullet's, which is widely considered pretty bad, gives her a real knockdown. The knockdown would be going too far, but I at least don't want to be at a disadvantage just for landing it.

I can confirm that Hazama's tracking super punishes growler.

edit: Just wanted to say that I want growler changed, just because I'm greedy. Buufs would be nice, but it's understandably not necessary.

Edited February 7, 2014 by LegendaryRath

[Verimeloni]

Yay made it to Mu-12 in Unlimited Mars course B...

[TheArm05]

Lately I seem to have hit a wall on Azrael. I am getting somewhat frustrated with this character.

Everyone I play against (not just zoning chars) runs the entire game and this character is so SLOW when trying to chase people.

My matches come down to relentlessly chasing someone to the corner and if they manage to surprise me and swap sides I have to chase them down to the other corner. All the while I am risking getting hit by whatever poke they can throw out as they back up.

I can still manage to overwhelm people with offense when I can actually get in but getting in is increasingly difficult.

How do you guys deal with characters that aren't zoning characters running from you the whole match?

I definitely need to get better at my combos too. I drop way too much stuff. That is on me to grind out though. No amount of advice will help me there.

[zeth07]

Lately I seem to have hit a wall on Azrael. I am getting somewhat frustrated with this character.

Everyone I play against (not just zoning chars) runs the entire game and this character is so SLOW when trying to chase people.

My matches come down to relentlessly chasing someone to the corner and if they manage to surprise me and swap sides I have to chase them down to the other corner. All the while I am risking getting hit by whatever poke they can throw out as they back up.

I can still manage to overwhelm people with offense when I can actually get in but getting in is increasingly difficult.

How do you guys deal with characters that aren't zoning characters running from you the whole match?

I definitely need to get better at my combos too. I drop way too much stuff. That is on me to grind out though. No amount of advice will help me there.

That is more or less Azrael's character flaw within the game mechanics. He doesn't have the benefit of hard knockdowns like Slayer does in GG, nor does he have some of the movement tools. You either need to be patient / have good defense (wait for them to come to you) or continue to try and go in after people hoping for higher reward vs. the risk. The other alternative is to pick a different character.

If you're netplaying/casuals that might not matter, but if it is a tournament there's no reason not to try and avoid something that feels like a bad match-up, at least if you actually have another character to play. There are a lot of characters in BB now and that's a lot of match-ups, it would make sense for people to have alts to avoid bad match-ups for their main if they are legitimately competitive with the game.

I personally alternate between Bang/Azrael every match (unless I'm avoiding mirrors), and in my opinion there are definitely match-ups that I would rather pick one over the other if if I was serious enough about wanting to win.

There isn't really much advice to give because that's just how the character plays.

[LordSpectreX]

I personally wouldn't dream of using Azrael vs Mu-12. I agree with Zeth tbh and say that you should pick up a more neutral heavy character. I sub Relius since he's essentially the anti-thesis of Azrael. Up to you ofc, but in a lot of zoning matchups you're going to rely heavily on the other person making mistakes, rather than you making plays.

[TheArm05]

Thanks for the response guys. I already play Rachel so I have a pretty strong neutral character already. I should swap back more often for a change of pace.

Biggest problem with that is that they both share a couple of bad matchups like Nu and Haz but thats just how it is haha.

I do still enjoy playing Azrael though. Those times when you get a big hit with weakpoints already on are amazing.

[zeth07]

Thanks for the response guys. I already play Rachel so I have a pretty strong neutral character already. I should swap back more often for a change of pace.

Biggest problem with that is that they both share a couple of bad matchups like Nu and Haz but thats just how it is haha.

I do still enjoy playing Azrael though. Those times when you get a big hit with weakpoints already on are amazing.

I would recommend just picking Rachel for those match-ups if both of your characters are at a equal level. Rachel has better tools to deal with both of them in my opinion.

[Verimeloni]

Can someone clarify which moves exactly can you follow-up with 22C? I see people jumping across the screen after Phalanxes but when I try it I never get it to work.

[Tage*Proto]

If i understand it correctly, it's not certain moves you follow it up with, but rather any time they hit the ground without emergency teching(for instance, otg blue beats, etc) you can potentially 22c and it will attempt to track them. Not sure if that answers your question.

[Verimeloni]

If i understand it correctly, it's not certain moves you follow it up with, but rather any time they hit the ground without emergency teching(for instance, otg blue beats, etc) you can potentially 22c and it will attempt to track them. Not sure if that answers your question.

Not really, for example Rath in his combo video does TCL > Phalanx > 22C and it's legit.