[Xrd] Zato - General discussion and changes list

[Antihero11]

I have the same experience with Faust. I usually tried to far drill behind him, then puddle Summon Eddie into Nobiru for a punish, or apply sandwich pressure with Shadow P.

Like almost every one of the Zato's MUs... It feels very momentum based. If you can lockdown Faust early, bait a burst, and continue applying pressure, there's not much he can do, and you can take the round.

 

[2312123131]

So did Zato really get his jK extended? Does it give him any new options?

Also what do you think the optimal Dead Man's Hand combo on midscreen is?

Right now im doing this:

214-D-, jK, jHS,-S-, jD, land, unsummon

If I don't have enough Ed gauge, I just unsummon without -S-.

 

Thanks in advance.

[huber]

As far as j.K goes I find it easier to hit small characters with it than before. j.K would whiff a lot for me on grounded small characters like Venom and Elph. Happens very rarely if ever at all now.

[AKA]

I came up with some meterless options off of 2D in the corner. The risk is that it is difficult, if not impossible to confirm it, but the return is very high. If you don't execute it right, you can get an unsummon with no blockstun coverage from Eddie (ending your offense early). If they guess right and you execute it properly, then Eddie is at risk.

If you have meter, you can keep your offense up if they guess right. This is only really maybe preferable against characters that rise in a way that makes Executor unblockables more difficult to land (Eddie running out before bomb plant timing, for example).

Consider it something neat, not necessarily BnB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBIx4g68TaM

[Starfire]

Does that 1-hit SG work on every character and/or is there some specific spacing involved? If it works, this looks more reliable than the 2-hit version.

2D, -P-, SG (1), -S-, SG (2) should also be possible, if somewhat difficult to execute. Much easier from an overhead hit, and leads to good damage because the high damage first SG hit connects.

[AKA]

Does that 1-hit SG work on every character and/or is there some specific spacing involved? If it works, this looks more reliable than the 2-hit version.

This works on every character. The variation vs Millia is identical, but Eddie has to be a BIT closer due to her tiny air hurtbox. The variation that works on Millia also works on everyone.

Edit: This totally BnB if you can do it.

[Antihero11]

I'm still having a really tough time with this character. What do you consider Zato's best approach options? I usually get thrown out of air dashes and anti-aired if I go in from the sky. Or is Zato more of a bait and punish character. Thoughts?

[Starfire]

If you don't have the shadow out, you should be playing keepaway until you do.

If you do, I'd suggest watching what they do first. Some people will try to rush you down to avoid having to block shadow pressure. Against that, you don't have to approach and I think just fishing with nobiru, drills and 2H is often better and less risky.

When you do have to approach, I think it's best to approach calmly by walking or dashing, using nobiru to cover and dodging projectiles with BTL, moguru (-H-) and jumps. A nice trick is to go into BTL and try to put the shadow behind your opponent with -H-. Then you can poke them in the back with nobiru.

[Antihero11]

I like the trick you mentioned. Another thing I do is BTL and poke with Haneru, then drill when they get upset and try to kill Eddie and go for a knockdown.

[xXavierx]

Has anyone else played around with -k- 6P to eat wakeup reversals? I saw Ogawa do it at NWM15 and thought it was pretty sick so I made a short crappy video testing it against other reversals. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5uDsgU-UgI

 

Ogawa does it here at 5:20

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uF0ExF0C9w

 

With reversals that are just one hit and don't go airborn, you could get a stronger punish without doing 6P but that would be enough content to make a video on just that probably. I'm sure most know this by now but Mawaru will even eat certain supers like Ram's Exploder and allow you to punish for free. 

[Starfire]

On some reversals you could maybe get a CH 2H for big damage. It worked on Storm Viper in AC, and would probably still work at least on 1-hit DPs.

[Antihero11]

I can see 2H CH working, but only on 1-hit DPs. Otherwise, it might trade or you could be knocked down. 6P seems more reliable, but I think it has it's applications.

[ikebukuro83]

Hey guys, quick question, how do you ger a reliable SG(1) after the UB in the corner... I tried to fly really low to the ground then hs and SG but 90% of the time i get a 2 hit ...

I tried a couple of things : distance of the flight hs / height of the flight ..

Thanks for any pointers.

[Antihero11]

Hey guys, quick question, how do you ger a reliable SG(1) after the UB in the corner... I tried to fly really low to the ground then hs and SG but 90% of the time i get a 2 hit ...

I tried a couple of things : distance of the flight hs / height of the flight ..

Thanks for any pointers.

I think most people have trouble getting this consistently. I've even seen Ogawa miss it on occasion, though now, he usually just goes for unsummon instead of UB. Anyways, I would suggest spacing horizontally instead of vertically. If you're far enough away from the character the first hit should whiff and the second should hit. If you don't understand what I mean, just PM me and I'll explain in more detail. Good luck!

 

[ikebukuro83]

Thanks for answering .. I see what you mean, first SG hit whiff and the second hit ... The 1 hit is the second hit of the move, right ?.. Anyway i will try some more but i think usummoning is a good way to keep pressure, overall may be better than UB.

[JG]

Hey guys, quick question, how do you ger a reliable SG(1) after the UB in the corner... I tried to fly really low to the ground then hs and SG but 90% of the time i get a 2 hit ...

I tried a couple of things : distance of the flight hs / height of the flight ..

Thanks for any pointers.

 

Try this:

5D> 6P (1)> 5S> 7j.K> Flight > j.Hs + Shadow D.

 

This setup usually put you at distance for the SG(1).

[ikebukuro83]

Try this:

5D> 6P (1)> 5S> 7j.K> Flight > j.Hs + Shadow D.

This setup usually put you at distance for the SG(1).

Yo JG, thx for sharing this.. It worked for me and it is reliable for the distance.

Now i tested your set up, i release -D- at the first hit of 6P, 5S, jump K, fly , and wait Hs during the flight, shadow gallery.

As there was no notation for the release of the drill special, i assume it was at this moment ? Or just after the 5D?

[Starfire]

I did some frame data testing with perfect nobiru unsummon. Perfect here means that the unsummon activates immediately after nobiru connects, leaving you with maximum advantage after the unsummon recovery. The easiest way to get it reliably is e.g. 2[P], 2[K], 236S. However, you have to cancel into unsummon from hitstop, and you must do it with the shortest S press possible. If you hold S even for a little bit, the shadow is unsummoned before nobiru connects and you're left at a big disadvantage.

9f moves like c.S, 2D and Drunkard will all combo on block (i.e. opponent never leaves blockstun), but I wasn't able to get 2H to combo. This means that nobiru unsummon is at least +9 on block, but less than +11. So it's either +9 or +10. This has the following implications:

- 5P (5f) will always combo on block, even if the opponent IBs. The only way to escape is Dead Angle. You can always get a resummon off this, though not necessarily at full charge, except maybe with YRC.

- 5K, 2K and 2D hit low and combo on block. If the opponent is mashing, trying to throw, jump or backdash, they will get hit. Have to experiment with good followups, maybe 2K, f.S, 5H into either drill or fresh resummon would be good.

- Drunkard can only be interrupted with a DP or similar. However, you have to delay it for a little bit to get CH if the opponent goes for a throw. If you hit them in the back with nobiru unsummon, the opponent will usually be at point blank range for a long time, and it looks like you can throw, but you can't. Drunkard is -6 on block though, and it will lose to IB followed by a good OS throw like Sol 5K.

- If you are out of throw range (in the corner usually), 2H and 5H will likely CH almost all non-invincible moves. 2H should also hit their jump startup, and 5H should hit backdash. They can also be cancelled into a resummon.

- Imperfect nobiru unsummons should never be worse than neutral (without IB ) as long as unsummon is started before nobiru hits, and should usually give at least a small advantage. 5P, 2K and 2S should be strong at their optimal ranges. An especially nice setup for this is 22S, -S-, unsummon, as it leaves a puddle for resummoning right on top of them.

[Antihero11]

I've been using 22S -S- for a while to unsummon and reapply pressure in the corner. But I had a question. Does it matter if you unsummon with 236S or 236HS. I usually unsummon with 236HS. Does this leave you at less frame advantage?

The way you worded that post was kind of confusing starfire. Do you mean if the shadow is out and you input 236S, nobiru will still come out - hit the opponent - then immediately disappear. I thought that would just unsummon. Unless you're saying you release S, then input 236S.

I would just like a bit more explanation so I know I've been doing it right all this time. More frame advantage is always a plus since people will always try to mash out of pressure. Thanks!



 

[Starfire]

To clarify, the whole sequence is 236, press S (unsummon starts), immediately release S (nobiru starts), nobiru hits, unsummon activates.

It should be possible to do this with any button, but I think it's easier to just tap S as quickly as possible, rather than trying to press HS and release S at the same time. Then again, maybe something like 2, 236[H] + -S- would be reliable as well, I need to test!

The closer the nobiru impact is to the unsummon activation, the bigger the advantage, up to a maximum of about +9 or +10. I can't think of an easy way to test which of those two is correct.

We just need to find the most reliable input to start nobiru at the same frame with unsummon, or possibly one frame after. 236S with the shortest possible S press is the one I've been using, but maybe there are easier ones.

EDIT: If the situation is +10, then maybe 13f moves like 6P and 5H would interrupt a 3f jump startup like Sol's such that the opponent is still on the ground. If that is possible, I think it would confirm that it's +10.

[Antihero11]

That makes sense. What I usually do is: 2 > 22[H] -S- > 236H. That way I can hit with nobiru from a safe range, unsummon and go back to neutral or reapply pressure. But I like the idea of your mixup, I think I'll practice it a bit in the corner since many people like to jump out after unsummon.

[2312123131]

Can someone please explain why Zato players use [5P, 2K, 22S] after [5D, 66, unsummon] in the corner?

Why not [5P, 5HS, 22S] for example, which is more reliable, deals more damage and can be used on different distances?

Thanks in advance.

[9:02 PM]

It's just because of how pushback in combos is cumulative. Depending on how long your combo was before the dust, the pushback might be too much for 5H to reliably connect on the first or second hit, or the 5H might push you out of S drill spacing even after tbe first hit.

Usually your combo is so prorated at that point that the damage difference negligible anyway.

[2312123131]

It's just because of how pushback in combos is cumulative. Depending on how long your combo was before the dust, the pushback might be too much for 5H to reliably connect on the first or second hit, or the 5H might push you out of S drill spacing even after tbe first hit.

Usually your combo is so prorated at that point that the damage difference negligible anyway.

I see, thank you.

[Katspawz]

Not sure if this has been asked before and also cuz theres nothing on the matchup threads. But i wanna ask how the hell do i fight Axl? With his buffed stance and Rensen YRC its been getting harder to fight since he can cover his advances now. I would usually try to summon via puddle behind him but they were smart to hit the puddles away and i get whiff punish for it. Any advice fora novice for this this matchup?