[UNIEL] Carmine

[orphanfight317]

Okay I'm having an issue with the [3B, 2C xx] ender. From a basic bnb like 5B, 2C, 6B, 2C, 236A, j[C], 2b, jABC I can never get the 3B to land since the opponent techs right at the end of j.ABC. Is there any timing to it or should I just be mashing 3B after j.c?

[Killey]

Try delaying the j.C a little. 

[Twinkerbellium]

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/8876-uniel-carmine/page-5

DEAUUGH RA

[iPhail]

It would be nice to have the damage for every combo.

[Tomo009]

Hmm so we can't get much for 22A midscreen without coutnerhit?

It's ok still, I mean it is some damage into the same oki we get from everything else, I just find myself landing it a lot from situations where I didn't confirm into a 6B but wanted to keep pressure up after.

[spiralfang]

Thank u so much for the guys i cant wait to start grinding him

[Crono Reyer]

Filled in some frame data on the wiki using the hitbox viewer. Ill work on it more after I get back from playing this weekend, can get most of it done but have no way to get frame advantages, and I'd love if someone could do that. Personally I think the important things are

Point blank 6b

Lowest possible j.6b (no assault)

623a/b with/without puddles

A moves

C moves repeated into a more that whiff

I'm kind of suprised overall no one has talked about using j.6b, it's a fantastic tool for pressure. After you've scared someone with your throw game you do empty jump j.6b and if they threw, you get a beefy combo. If they mashed, you probably get a beefy combo. If they blocked, it's frame advantage. Go nuts.

Just my 2cents guys

[Skye]

No more editing posts? Shit, time for  a double post.

Can't find j.6b in the frame viewer but i'm fairly certain he has no hurtbox on his legs, I've gone over some questionable lows with it. 

I had a nice 22a starter combo that I forgot that I hope i'll remember to drop off later, it's a pretty common starter suprisingly. I think I also had a 5bb > 22a combo, not sure. Whatever.

[Merkyl999x]

So friend of mine recorded some sets from our weekly fight night.  I've got one from me against a local Nanase player.  Would love to get some feedback on the play.  I think my major issue at the moment is not converting clean non-puddle hits.  It took a lot of work to force myself to stop throwing wheels at the end of blockstrings starting out and now I'm having trouble throwing them when I'm supposed to. :/  The 3rd or 4th match we started discussing Nanase's reverse beat strings and I was trying to make sure I know how to block her so there are 2 matches where I'm super passive and that's purely for informational purposes.  Any feedback is appreciated.  Normal week 2 disclaimer and all that.

http://youtu.be/D7NqkiOUJvU

[B.Z.B]

Can't find j.6b in the frame viewer but i'm fairly certain he has no hurtbox on his legs, I've gone over some questionable lows with it. 

 

http://finalclause.dantarion.com/hitboxes/#2/192/0 seems to be the case until he actually throws it (Frames 17-28)

[Killey]

Okay, I've updated the combo lists that I transcribed in an earlier posts.

 

The combos were taken from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-ixpyawNbg and there's a few that I didn't bother transcribing as I thought they were impractical or too situational. I might go back and transcribe them later. I've included some notes to help with the timing and execution of some of the combos. I have to say that Carmine's optimal corner combos are an absolute beast to pull off. There's a lot of delays and timing to get certain attacks to hit at a specific time for the right juggle property. 

 

EDIT: Here is the frame data for Carmine but not sure how accurate it is.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1De7GMR--Ycdnir8rto3rpztm7_LHeqJYqzyrjYlFviU/htmlview?usp=sharing&sle=true#

 

j.6B being +11 on block is pretty surpising. Also, didn't expect 623A/B to be that negative on block.

[Tomo009]

Can someone organise that info? It's appearing as an absolute mess for me and is proving difficult to read.

[Magaki]

@Bling:
I tried out 2GB's pseudo-infinite in an offline session today. It completely solves the problem with Merkava being able to fly away. It adds another weakness though, you can easily get thrown out of it and command grabs that lacked range to reach you like Gordeau's 214C and Carmine's will now work. It also doesn't allow you to bait 214D's as easily as Notsu's. While it's something that I'll definetely go with in the Merkava matchup, I think I'll use Notsu's more though simply because it's much safer.

@Merkyl:

For some reason, SAT isn't listed at all on horibuna. I think it might be because he often changes his handle name. Last year, he always had SAT so it was easy to find him. Then, afterwards, he stopped being called SAT and always went with different names everytime I saw him.

Only way I had to recognize him was that he got a very risky and aggressive playstyle and always use the Flash Magic or Strange Strawberry color.
のナイトアルト however is Naito (Or at least, that's how I remember they called him in a video.)

Okay I'm having an issue with the [3B, 2C xx] ender. From a basic bnb like 5B, 2C, 6B, 2C, 236A, j[C], 2b, jABC I can never get the 3B to land since the opponent techs right at the end of j.ABC. Is there any timing to it or should I just be mashing 3B after j.c?

Delay the jA and press 3B right when you land after the jC.

 

 

Hmm so we can't get much for 22A midscreen without coutnerhit?

It's ok still, I mean it is some damage into the same oki we get from everything else, I just find myself landing it a lot from situations where I didn't confirm into a 6B but wanted to keep pressure up after.

Yeah. I really tried a lot of things to try to get any damage off that.
Most stable combo I found who work on everyone is 22A>5BB>jCAB>2C which only does 2117 damage without vorpal.
If you want more damage, do after 2C 214A(1)>236C>j[C]>dash 2B>2C. Also got a pretty good corner carry.

Also seems that you can do 5B>delay 2C but the opponent ends up way too far away to follow it up into anything decent afterwards meterless. If you do 236A after 2C, it will only hit once. You can then squeeze a j[C] and hit with the tippity tip of the hitbox but the opponent is too far to do anything afterwards.
5B>delay 2C>236C always work though and allow you to go for the j[C]>dash 2B route.

Let's hope Skye will find something better.

 

 

Filled in some frame data on the wiki using the hitbox viewer. Ill work on it more after I get back from playing this weekend, can get most of it done but have no way to get frame advantages, and I'd love if someone could do that. Personally I think the important things are

Point blank 6b
Lowest possible j.6b (no assault)
623a/b with/without puddles
A moves
C moves repeated into a more that whiff

I'm kind of suprised overall no one has talked about using j.6b, it's a fantastic tool for pressure. After you've scared someone with your throw game you do empty jump j.6b and if they threw, you get a beefy combo. If they mashed, you probably get a beefy combo. If they blocked, it's frame advantage. Go nuts.

Just my 2cents guys

Yeah, I noticed it earlier. Thanks man ! Glad to see more people helping with the wiki !

I don't like using j6B during pressure that much though. Problem is that while it's indeed pretty good to bait throws, it loses hardcore against any anti-air OS while tk236B is much safer because it blows you backward and leads to better rewards.
With the frame data available specifying though that j6B is +11, it's definetely something that I'm gonna use more an add in my game.
Gotta go to the lab and check out the best situations to use it I guess !
 

 

Can someone organise that info? It's appearing as an absolute mess for me and is proving difficult to read.

 

Okay, I've updated the combo lists that I transcribed in an earlier posts.

 

The combos were taken from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-ixpyawNbg and there's a few that I didn't bother transcribing as I thought they were impractical or too situational. I might go back and transcribe them later. I've included some notes to help with the timing and execution of some of the combos. I have to say that Carmine's optimal corner combos are an absolute beast to pull off. There's a lot of delays and timing to get certain attacks to hit at a specific time for the right juggle property. 

 

EDIT: Here is the frame data for Carmine but not sure how accurate it is.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1De7GMR--Ycdnir8rto3rpztm7_LHeqJYqzyrjYlFviU/htmlview?usp=sharing&sle=true#

 

j.6B being +11 on block is pretty surpising. Also, didn't expect 623A/B to be that negative on block.

Gonna add it in the wiki anyway. So far, it seems quite accurate in comparison to what we found. If there is anything that is fishy though, we will just remove it and wait for a better framedata.

[Killey]

Found an interesting option select after watching some of Notsu's older matches.

 

Dash 3B, 9C - On block you would get 5C since you can't jump cancel on block. On hit it lets you confirm into a combo. The block string from 3B to 9C creates a frame trap and I've seen Notsu get a couple of counter hits from it.

[Crono Reyer]

Wiki looks really good now, we just need to put in the data for j.236x and then do miscellaneous stuff. Thanks to Magaki and whoever else did it.

[iPhail]

@Killey

Mid-screen 0% Meter:

6D->j.C, 5A, 2C, jc j.6B OTG (puddle), j.A, j.B, j.C, land, 3B, 2C xx 623A, 66C = 2286 Damage

 

 

is the jc before the j6b a typo? cuz i cant do that for my life.

Thnx for the damage on the combos btw.

 

 

Nvm its jc(jump cancel). im not the only one who thought it was J.C though!.

[Killey]

I try to seperate jump cancel with lower case jc and jump C with j.C. I put a legend just before the combos to explain the difference as well...

[KuukuuOmoi]

Hey can you guys think of a versus tier list for carmine; aka who he does well against who he's pretty much even with and who he is fighting an uphill battle against.

I realize to up my game I need to watch what moves I can poke with against who and how to capitalize on blocked/whiffed moves for the best carmine I can hope to achieve lol

[Killey]

The Japanese arcades actually generates a tier list and match up charts based on the ranking cards that the players uses. It just gathers up the stats of win/losses of characters and then displays them in the typical match up chart fashion. In the last one I saw, Carmine only had 5.x-4.x match ups against the top 3 then went even or advantage against the rest of the cast. 

[KuukuuOmoi]

http://youtu.be/3h2XXdWeOCM

I'm saying in this sense or things useful against certain match ups that you should try to abuse

[jo-p]

Do we have any linne specific combos? She's so tiny my typical combos (especially 2C jc.6B route) always drop vs her!

[Killey]

All of the combos work on Linne you just have to vary up the timings or adapt your combo based on how you've timed your hits but I agree that her hitbox is small, which causes timing issues. 

[Magaki]

Wiki looks really good now, we just need to put in the data for j.236x and then do miscellaneous stuff. Thanks to Magaki and whoever else did it.

Thanks ! It's still way too small IMO and needs more content to be satisfactory but I'll definetely take care of it when I'll have more free time.

 

Hey can you guys think of a versus tier list for carmine; aka who he does well against who he's pretty much even with and who he is fighting an uphill battle against.

I realize to up my game I need to watch what moves I can poke with against who and how to capitalize on blocked/whiffed moves for the best carmine I can hope to achieve lol

I think it's still way too soon to really get accurate opinions on that. Only thing I can tell you so far is that the only matchup definetely not in his favour is Merkava. He either dominates or is even/slight advantage/disadvantage. Overall, he seems much closer to high tier than mid tier but the reason why we can't be certain at this point is because his pressure is hard to deal with and require a good defense for anyone to deal with it which takes some time.

I would suggest you to simply keep waiting and contributing to discussions in the matchup section which will probably have more activity in a month or two.

 

Do we have any linne specific combos? She's so tiny my typical combos (especially 2C jc.6B route) always drop vs her!

The only combos completely dropping on her is anything leading into 2B>2C. Otherwise, all the combos work but she requires a specific timing for most of them. Good news though is that if you learn the timing on her specifically, it will always work for every other characters (character specific combos aside) that's why she should be the most used training dummy for Carmine. Unless you want to work on 2B>2C combos/assault jA or any combos always dropping on her.

--------------------------------------------

A few random notes:

-Edited my first post in the matchup section in order to keep track of our matchups.

-Tried to add j6B in my game lately simply because that +11 sounds amazing. Problem is that I have yet to see any situation that makes the move shines and makes it better than any other option:

 After whiff canceled 2A, move gets beaten easily by most 5A mash unless the ones that hit low. Overall, the move got 20f startup without counting jump startup and the whiff cancel is more than enough to get the opponent to react to a pressure reset so they get away most of the time. It's just nowhere as good as 6B that becomes + on block at this distance or even going straight for 236A.

 As a meaty, recovery is too big to safe jump any kind of reversal. And even if the opponent don't reversal, the rewards aren't as good as 214[A/B] or 236A. Those two options are also safe against reversals if used as a meaty and they deal with back tech and delay techs much more easily than j6B.

 Cool as an anti-anti-air in neutral but j236B is much better. Angle is alright in neutral though but it will only cover an interesting amount of space when done quite high so you become - on block if you do it this way.

 Checked also if it could be useful in defense but it's ultra risky. Had an opponent whiffing a 2A, recovering, and still punishing me with 5A because of the long startup. Definetely a bad idea in defense.

So yeah, would probably be a decent tool for other characters but for Carmine, it's kinda meh compared to his other options both in neutral and pressure. Move COULD have been amazing if it would have been possible to jump cancel on block but considering that you can't do it in this game, it doesn't seem to me that it's a move that will see a lot of use except as a combo filler.

Unless someone found a better use for it ?

[Killey]

I've been approved for the wiki so when I get access I'll be able to flesh out the wiki in more detail. 

 

Right now, I'm still struggling with getting optimal block strings into my game play. It's messing up my game plans and hit confirms. I'll need to write some stuff down for block string routes and what they lead into.

[Killey]

Sorry for the double post but it's been a few days since the last post. Does anyone know how much health Carmine heals from his command grab super?