[P4AU] Marie Gameplay Discussion

[Celerity]

setting up a cloud and leaving it be, then continuing with chocolate until the cloud is gone seems to work well

or you can combo them into the cloud with something ending in 236A

 

use combos ending in sweeps to set up a present, and combos ending in 236C for supers or eye placement

 

236C has about ~4F more advantage than 236A if you're just doing a short combo into sweep, but keep in mind that it will be air techable on anything longer than that, so you'll have to use 236A if you want knockdown and space. 2AB > 236A > 214A~A is punishable by card toss super, but SB gift should be safe against most characters, and 214C/D will leave you with slight advantage.

[Buttface]

a simple 5AA>5B>6B>2AB>214A~A/B leaves you safe if it hits, and if they block just replace the 214A~A/B with 236A and you should be safe from anything they can throw at you

[TD]

This character is soo interesting. I cannot wait to see how she develops.

I noticed... She seems to have really good defense for a zoner. Her DP is so damn fast! Also can be done in the air, which seems like a trait shared with higher tier characters (not that this solely breaks them or her, just an observation). And since her dp super can be used in the air as well, she's never without options. Not to mention, do super doesn't need persona.

She has her own moves without persona so presumably she should still be able to zone decently well while persona broken, especially with snow or rain or even cloudy weather because they all seem to do nothing but bolster her defensive presence in different ways.

She also has jc, I'm having a lot of fun with this move. The movement seems super useful for her game and should see a decent amount of use when the Marie is playing keep away, which is a little harder to do than it is in Blazblue. It's slow to start, but that shouldn't hurt it too much as it is plus on block (is this a consistent thing?) and moves her further depending on her jump height. She can air turn and go the other way for full screen presense/aa bait, or mix it up with jd and jb depending on the situation.

Traps are straightforward and overall each one is so good. Still experimenting with the eye though, see if it can be used to pull the foe in if they are pressuring her. I fought a labrys today and tried this but it didn't really pull her in. The eye was behind the labrys.

She's set to be very good I feel it. It's still day 1 though.

[Buttface]

A nice thing about the chocolate is that once you set it up, you force them to either block it, try to jump it and risk getting anti aired or shocked if there's a cloud, or roll

if the roll, you get a free counter grab

if they block, you can run up and go for a high/low mixup or a grab before the present opens

 

OMCing just before the second hit of 236A/B is another great way to mix up the opponent in blockstrings. Fake the high and go for a 5A instead. That, the presents, and the 5BB OMC make Marie a really dirty character.

[TD]

Sounds like legit stuff. I agree that down the line she is definitely going to be a very diverse character with a lot of cool trick.

I'm surprised no one has said this about the chocolate!

In Soviet Russia, chocolate licks you.

Also, the second hit of 236x is an overhead I believe, which should lead jntonthensame thing as 5bb but possibly even more potent because it moves her forward more and is an overhead: 236x late omc 5a

[DaGodhand]

I can confirm that the second hit of 236A/B is an overhead

[Buttface]

That's the point of the OMC, you use it to feint the overhead and then go for a quick 5A low 

 

Also, here's a little video showing how to set up the magatama super so that Kaguya doesn't get broken

http://youtu.be/Z0sf-aOeVtE

 

the chocolate method is better, but the 236C can work if you have the right setup

[Surf]

Well then.... I was going to make a post that eyes are pretty disappointing in neutral but just now I fought a Marie and my opinion has changed

 

I noticed it when i played her last week but since then I'd completely forgotten

 

That eyes absorb projectiles while they're set. Playing Yukari, they even manage to eat 214C/D and 236A/B completely. Even if the animations still go across the screen the durability is already gone and the arrows go through Marie. Once I enter awakening I would attempt 236A > 214214C/D for a mixup oppurtunity only for one of the eyes to eat up all of 236A and me not being able to cancel into the super since it doesn't hit Marie. I caught on quick and start iad'ing in only to come up short or further than I intended because the eyes gravity was screwing with my movement ever so slightly. It was honestly annoying as shit. Not many characters in the cast rely on projectiles in neutral heavily but just the fact they seem to absorb anything I shot at them is extremely good. Going to test just how much they can take in a bit

 

Also j.C is obnoxious as hell. Yukari can stuff it easily if done so early (and since her 2B is a projectile), but once it was out already I couldn't do much about it. Makes me wonder what the characters with normal anti airs do about it

 

 

 

Testing eyes now and I'm seeing they eat anything Projectile lv.4 and under as long as they aren't supers. There are some special cases where something thats lv.4 and not a super can kill them though. But I'm so so on the supers part since Naoto's 236236A gets rid of the eye while 236236B doesn't. Which I found odd. Also using Naoto's 236C on the eye takes a persona card away from her despite the eye not having a hitbox yet. And 236C actually being Body attribute. Didn't really see this happen with other moves. Rise's Ouroboros pretty much kills all eyes on contact. All her other projectile do absolutely nothing to them. 2C goes under them though. Liz's regular Zios kill eyes but none of her other projectile moves kill them. They eat Yu's 236C but not his 236D. Labrys's 236C/D and the eye cancel each other out. Nothing Yukiko does besides 236C/D or her supers will get rid of the eyes. Aigis 2B is useless fullscreen since the eye eats one important bullet. As long as Marie remains grounded shes fine. But Aigis's 236A/B still retains the hitbox despite being absorbed by the eye. So if Marie is right behind it she has to block. Using 236A/B on two seperate occasions kills the eye while unloading ALL of her bullets with 236AB doesn't. Weird... Junpei can actually bat the eyes upon their activation (pfft). Minazukis cross slash super doesn't "hit" Marie because the eye takes the supers durability away... wow.

 

Would test Teddie's items but that's going to take too long. Maybe tomorrow

 

All in all I'm still a bit confused on how they work exactly. Some moves they "eat" the durability and they just become animations with no hitboxes. But with Aigis her bullets retained they're hitbox. Only thing I can think is since she's shooting so many some are unaccounted for and can still hit Marie. There are some exceptions with non super moves that aren't lv. 5 like Yukiko's 236C/D, Liz's Zios, Yu 236D, etc. But those were rare. All I know is that these things are a big problem for Yukari

[Buttface]

Marie's j.C gets stuffed by most if not all physical anti airs

 

I tested it on several characters, and had multiple instances of the 2B whiffing but they still took none of the hits from the j.C even though it clearly passed through them

[TD]

As long as an air normal is done it can be anti aired in most cases. In most fighting games there are very few air invul moves besides dp's or something similar to full body invul, these are pretty much the only moves that cannot be aa'd once the air character's hurtbox comes in contact with the foe's hitbox. The move is slow enough to be countered if it is expected, definitely not her best attack but that movement is so good. It's basically good on block or hit and whiff should be hard to punish if used properly. So it should mostly be punished on startup or by characters who can deal with the movement on reaction like adachi fullscreen super, Liz hyper beam, mitsuru, etc

Oh, I'm sure it is quite easy to anti air as well unless it has a weird trading hitbox or something. As time passes people will probably be anti airing this easily unless more strategy is found.

[Buttface]

The only weird thing about anti airing it is how the other character is completely invincible to it while doing their 2B

otherwise it's really a pretty easy move to AA on reaction if it's aimed at you or in your general direction

 

I'm retarded and didn't realize it was head attribute

[TD]

Marie can sort of bait aa's with her jd and possibly air turn jc on top of universal options. Plus she has 2 air dp if the foe starts getting wise. She should be ok here. Some if not 2bs are also air unblockable...

[Surf]

Ah. Ok then. Thought it'd be a problem to anti air it. Guess not. I updated my earlier post with 214C/D durability testing. Special is extremely interesting

[Buttface]

Why did no one tell me 236CD automatically places a magatama at the opponent's location

this changes everything

[TD]

Damn that was the exact reason I posted earlier. ._.

Indeed it tracks... With meter, eyes eating projectiles and all her traps and weather, I highly doubt Marie will be losing any zoning wars. It probably will have numerous uses. Not sure if it tracks them in the air though. It's fast enough on both startup and recovery to be good but I don't think you get much momentum for it on block; so it's probably just a good zoning tool that can technically be applied to every part of her game in some way. It's exciting to say the least.

[Buttface]

There are no matchup topics yet, so I'm just going to throw this out here

Minazuki is probably one of Marie's worst matchups

he can use his 2D and teleport slash to stuff any kind of setup placement except off of sweeps, her main big damage bnb doesn't work, and he has better normals than us

[TD]

Both of them or just minazuki?

Are teleports safe? Like I know he does a hit or whatever but if we can ib it and punish we could do feint cancels to bait it. The bnb's though, that could be a serious problem. So is the normals bit. I wonder if he can out space her dp's.

[Buttface]

Just Minazuki

Sho has to physically approach while minazuki does not

his teleport slashes are +4 on block, and he can hit you with 2D from across the screen without putting himself at risk from anything but our 236236C if we block it

 

and all our setup BnBs are alright, it's just the 5A>5AA>5BB>j.C stuff that doesn't work because the j.C doesn't combo on him

[gary]

I don't have the game yet but I have a question for those who do!

marie seems to have an unblockable move (SB Evil Eye or whatever its called) and a move that puts the enemy in spin state (Magatama super)

 

is there a way to combine the two and get an unblockable reset, possibly costing a one-more-burst before summoning one of the things? or is that too much summoning time to fit into a combo no matter what

[OutlawVinegar]

There are no matchup topics yet, so I'm just going to throw this out here

Minazuki is probably one of Marie's worst matchups

he can use his 2D and teleport slash to stuff any kind of setup placement except off of sweeps, her main big damage bnb doesn't work, and he has better normals than us

 

Both of them or just minazuki?

Are teleports safe? Like I know he does a hit or whatever but if we can ib it and punish we could do feint cancels to bait it. The bnb's though, that could be a serious problem. So is the normals bit. I wonder if he can out space her dp's.

 

On Minazuki teleports. 2B 2B 2B. It's absolutely essential for any character with an AUB 2B to learn the timing on hitting him out of teleports and taking full advantage of the Fatal Recovery to maximize your damage. If you can antiair a Minazuki and optimize a FC 2B, most characters can deal around 4k for 50 meter. Marie already has non-CH 2B combos that do that much, so I'm sure on a Fatal route she can jump that up to 5-6k for 100 or even more. If you can create that kind of threat, Minazuki players will be extremely hesistant to use teleports in neutral, pressure, or even in general.

[Justice7541]

Now that people with an actual motivation to learn this character have had a chance to mess with her a bit, how are her oki setups looking?  Just from what I played with her at a pretty scrub level, she felt somewhat similar to Rise but more lacking in strong oki setups and pressure but compensated for it with better neutral zoning options and damage.  Wondering if that really bears out since the two characters seem to have pretty similar gameplans otherwise.

[Celerity]

Just Minazuki

Sho has to physically approach while minazuki does not

his teleport slashes are +4 on block, and he can hit you with 2D from across the screen without putting himself at risk from anything but our 236236C if we block it

 

and all our setup BnBs are alright, it's just the 5A>5AA>5BB>j.C stuff that doesn't work because the j.C doesn't combo on him

 

Teleport slash isn't difficult to react to, just watch for the black hole during the starting animation. The risk/reward on this move is heavily skewed in your favor, and you can blow up random netplay Minazukis pretty much exclusively by being patient and pressing 2B.

 

His 2D is alright, but if you block it, you can throw down a summon, or use 7j.2B to take out a persona card.

 

Good Minazuki players will probably just stay grounded against you and try to disrupt your zoning, especially since our damage conversion is so bad vs Minazuki on the ground. But unlike most other zoning characters, Marie has good enough buttons to contend with Minazuki's, and a real DP to escape pressure, so I don't think the matchup can be "bad". This is also another matchup where I feel like properly spaced j.D can be very strong, especially behind chocolate.

[Justice7541]

He can throw a knife to cover teleport, that's what I see Minazuki doing 90% of the time.

[Setsuna]

So how do I use 236C/D (236CD as well) in my play, I haven't really understood it much besides using it to end 5C > 2C strings 

 

Also does press 214A ~ A release the present faster ? I'm not home atm to test I just saw it in a notation in the combo thread. Finally how good is 214A ~ D (?) I'm hearing good things about it but haven't gotten a chance to explore myself. 

 

Whats everyones neutral gameplay look like so far I feel sort of lost. 

[TD]

236c is corner combo fodder. and anywhere combo ender. not sure if it is good on block. as ender, allows a farther away summon attempt or a dash in, create space etc. marie has a few options here that dont necessarily need to be offensive. can do weather super from 236c.

 

 

236d... has potential. not sure what it is for yet. maybe it can beat wierd projectiles. oki is not recommended, explodes as you recover basically.

 

236cd explodes right on a grounded target's hurtbox. great for whiff punishes because it is free summon or weather on hit. block is ok at further range. I believe it will whiff jumping and knocked down foes.

 

yes 214aa releases cocoa faster. no point in delaying unless you're doing some bag mixup or something. 214ad is a stance cancel, it is fast enough and cancels from mostly all ground normals if not all. basically it is a pressure reset and a safety button for summoning in neutral. trick the foe and then anti air them, summon or just block.

 

so yeah, how I play her. sort of like rachel I guess. get space and setup. first she will poke her way to respect midrange by using excellent spacing skills. her 5b, 2b, jb to establish control, and her bag feints to bait the foe into attacking you while 'summoning'. gain meter and try to summon as soon as you get a good chance to. all summons are good enough to shift momentum in her favor almost immediately once placed safely. then you just play around them. remember you have cocoa, cloud, and the eye for summons. 236cd is a great use of meter to get respect if you have it. once you have 50 heat you have the option to change weather. which do you feel per matchup will benefit the most and/or hinder your foe's actions? weather strategy! remember that sunny weather gives supers damage a boost, cloudy gives her two clouds and her dp and throw gain paralyze status. rain gives passive healing and snow gives rather good passive meter. there is more but I am tired.