[CS2] Ragna General Discussion

[FlyingVe]

Hmm... that's a bigger damage gap then I remembered, that's what I get for not playing the character as much in CS. Adding 800 damage (+oki) makes it very much worth learning. Could be even more important in CS2 also.

[Zeromus_X]

You can also get about 4.1 K meterless (!) off of 2D with 2D, 5C, 5D (1), 214A (1), 22C, dash 5B, 6A, JC jC, jD, JC jC, 214C, dash 22C, dash 5B, 22C. Compare to 3.3k off of normal 2D 5C pickup combo.

But more importantly, if you learn it, you become a true bro.

[Spirit Juice]

Generally, the "22C loops" are only worth going for if you absolutely need the damage (say round victory). Otherwise, you're omitting double BE loops and tons of meter for a little bit extra damage.

[FlyingVe]

Lol, at calling it a loop when you can only do one rep at the end of combos(you can do [3C>22C>5B>3C>22C]x4 on it's own). Also, it seems like we say the same things about the 22C "loop" every couple weeks...

[Spirit Juice]

Yeah I'm just being lazy. Hence the quotes around "22C loop". It's not really a loop, but I'm just too lazy to type it in better detail. =3=

[FlyingVe]

I follow, I wasn't talking about (making fun of) you, but everybody calls everything in this game a loop. It makes me chuckle, especially since there are games out there that have some real loops (* cough* MvC2).

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Well, like I was saying, a lot of it depends on the starter in question. Some examples:

2B-3C, 2B-5C, HJC hj.C-D, JC j.C -> BE, dash 6D-j.D, JC j.C -> BE, dash 5D -> 22C 3244 dmg, 47 heat

2B-3C, 2B-5C, HJC hj.C-D, JC j.C -> BE, dash 5D -> 22C, dash 5B-3C -> 22C 3577 dmg, 41 heat (small damage increase, small heat decrease)

2B-3C -> 22C, dash 5B-5D, DC, 6A, JC j.C, JC j.C -> BE, dash 6D-j.C, JC j.C -> BE, dash 5D -> 22C 3800 dmg, 52 heat (significant damage increase and slight heat increase)

2B-3C -> 22C, dash 5B-5D, DC, 6A, HJC hj.C-D, JC j.C -> BE, dash 22C, dash 5B-3C -> 22C 4008 dmg, 43 heat (very slight increase to above combo, significant heat decrease)

Range makes a difference too. There are some other examples I'm working on, mostly the ones like the third combo which is sort of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too scenario.

[-Ladon-]

So scenario:

at 100% heat, IBing an obvious block string, and I ID to wallbounce and then decide to crossunder and setup 2c-3c-bk since they have no burst and they're at around 7k hp

my combo ends at about 5.5-6k damage(can't remember off the top of my head) anyway point is, would you sacrifice the guaranteed damage for a chance at a 5k mixup?

ragna doesn't generally get the chance to land these especially if the person's smart about teching, but what do you guys think overall about his two common crossunders(corner early carnage scissors or ID wallbounce)?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I would say it's probably worth it in both situations, provided the CS is ending a combo. ID combo is good for building meter, but the damage is not that impressive usually, so going for the reset is probably a good call.

With a straightforward character like Ragna, it pays to have as many ambiguous setups as possible.

[WolfCrimson]

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster here.

I'm not sure where to post this, and I don't think what I'm about to post warrants its own thread (don't want to get yelled at on my first day) so I'll just post it here. I've noticed a mistake in the frame data for Ragna's 5b and 5c. The frame data states that they have different p1's (85% and 90% respectively), but when I tested this in Training they're the same. As in, whenever I do the same combos where the only difference is the starter move (5b and 5c in this case), every other move does the same damage, and the difference of the total damage between both combos is 70 damage (the same difference between 5b and 5c). I'm pretty sure I'm right on this, but just in case, could somebody else also check, just to make sure my copy of BB:CS isn't faulty? >_<

[Final Ultima]

It's because their P2's are the opposite, so the overall proration turns out the same.

[WolfCrimson]

Oh, I see. You're right, I rechecked the formula for damage scaling, turns out I forgot about the p2 also affecting the damage of all other moves. So this means that 5c is not as powerful as a combo starter as 5b (excellent start-up). I wish it were like CT, justifies using 5c as a starter move.

Anyway, thanks, FinalUltima.

[WolfCrimson]

Doesn't Devoured by Darkness have minimum guaranteed damage? Frame data doesn't say anything about it, and trying to test it out in Training indicates that it's somewhere around 500, but maybe my combo's proration wasn't high enough. It'd really suck if it doesn't have minimum damage, it's already weak as it is in CS. I'm hoping they buff it in CS2, make it worth using again.

[FlyingVe]

DbD has no minimum damage in CS. It's almost entirely inferior to carnage scissors, as I believe both heal 1000 HP (in BK), and Scissors has a minimum damage.

[Spirit Juice]

Doesn't Devoured by Darkness have minimum guaranteed damage? Frame data doesn't say anything about it, and trying to test it out in Training indicates that it's somewhere around 500, but maybe my combo's proration wasn't high enough. It'd really suck if it doesn't have minimum damage, it's already weak as it is in CS. I'm hoping they buff it in CS2, make it worth using again.

DBD was pretty useless in CT as well. You could throw out some gimmicks with it, but it was largely useless. Also, spending 100 meter just for it wasn't exactly worth it, especially in CT when Ragna's meter gain was nowhere near as good as it is now.

[-Ladon-]

DBD's health gain was the reason it was any good in CT, with the right combo you were guaranteed half to 3/4 of your hp back

[Seifuuku]

single belial->gold burst->dbd finisher is always hype. always go for it, i don't care if it is just round 1.

sadly there are not very many DbD tech traps

[unsanctifier]

RAGNA THE BLOODEDGE....

....YOU'RE STUPID!

[FlyingVe]

You can still space DbD against Tager to make it pretty annoying. It's just a bad gimmick (ant the better Tager's will SuperFlashBuffer 720C anyways), but it can be fun to watch them flail away or try jumping only to get grabbed anyways.

[Asdferty]

If you do a 3c > BK activation combo starting with 100% that ends in the corner, you can do the gold burst DbD... rapid and 22c them on the way down. That is better than a carnage scissors ender I'm pretty sure but like... lulz. You can also link a 5b with no rapid after DbD, and go for a 6a tech trap or 623d if you are ballsy.

Important thing about DbD for tech traps, you can hit bang, hakumen, and tsubaki from a 22c without moving, so if they like to tech out you can grab em from that. If they don't tech you still get 1.5k~ life and a knockdown (or the trap above). This is not corner specific as the pushback is the same, but it helps in the corner as the can't back up or jump away, only up into your big red glove.

[Seifuuku]

3c->214214d->2c->214214d..

sounds godlike if they don't super flash buffer

[VR-Raiden]

I just tried that on those characters, that's pretty hilarious. All 3 of them can 5B it too, but I highly doubt that would be someone's first reaction to it.

[Asdferty]

Yeah it's more of a letsgetdumb.txt thing, but I figured it was somewhat relevant to the discussion. Thanks for the confirm, just going off memory right now. I enjoy using DbD, but it's pretty terrible in all departments. I consider it like an astral I can use in any round; usually a bad idea but fun to throw around.

[WolfCrimson]

DBD was pretty useless in CT as well. You could throw out some gimmicks with it, but it was largely useless. Also, spending 100 meter just for it wasn't exactly worth it, especially in CT when Ragna's meter gain was nowhere near as good as it is now.

CT DbD not worth it? 50 Heat for 5.2 k damage + 5.2 k life (for dry DbD) + ending BK was the best thing ever (the initial 50 for BK doesn't count, because no one ever goes into BK just to use DbD). It had requirements, but CT Ragna was about high risk high reward (just look at BK), and CT DbD was that mentality concentrated into a super. Sure it was hard to land, but you could CH 5b>DbD (CT, didn't try it in CS, but I think it works), a little trick I learned from my friend Score Attack U. Ragna.

You know what ArcSys should do? Make DbD have a minimum dmg of 1.5k and 1.5k hp regain. Makes it useful again.

[Spirit Juice]

CT DbD not worth it? 50 Heat for 5.2 k damage + 5.2 k life (for dry DbD) + ending BK was the best thing ever (the initial 50 for BK doesn't count, because no one ever goes into BK just to use DbD). It had requirements, but CT Ragna was about high risk high reward (just look at BK), and CT DbD was that mentality concentrated into a super. Sure it was hard to land, but you could CH 5b>DbD (CT, didn't try it in CS, but I think it works), a little trick I learned from my friend Score Attack U. Ragna.

You know what ArcSys should do? Make DbD have a minimum dmg of 1.5k and 1.5k hp regain. Makes it useful again.

DbD was always a gimmick though. Using it effectively (aka by itself) was gimmick tech traps. I wouldn't say CT Ragna was a high risk/high reward character because you could still get good damage off of a lot of hits. If anything, CS Ragna is higher risk, but that is currently negated by his huge meter gain from a BnB.