Digital Watches

Eh. It could be a playstyle thing, but throwing out low stuff in my opinion is only good when you're not really at that much risk if they jump (IE if they're already doing something or you're too far away for an IAD to get you before you can block.) I think there are better things to do from neutral, not the least of which is just try to get in (Stuff like 2K and 3P, or just running forward and FD breaking.) But yeah, I agree with a lot of what you're saying now that you phrase it differently. It'd be fun to play you some time. (And Smoov, for that matter.) I guess the only real problem I have with your list is... Your B tier is huge and your A tier is tiny! I think at least May, Axl, and ABA should be in A (And ABA's just too low in general)

Eh, I dunno, a lot of characters have to burn meter to keep their offense going. I guess not THAT much meter, but still.

Eh, I guess you're right on Ky, but Dizzy is far from solid. She needs to set up to be dangerous at all, has no reliable reversals, is big and fat in the air, and in general has to work for a knockdown before she can really lay in on anyone. If she had wicked awesome damage output, I could see it, but all she's really got going for her is slightly above-average oki game. (Of course this is all comparitive. I know Dizzy can hurt bad, but who in this game can't?)

VV RC-->Whateva. It's not great but it's not terrible. That, and having a command grab into meterless combo for nice damage can't hurt. I'd believe Sol low, but I'd also believe high B.

I guess it's not that absurd, except for Ky being under Dizzy. Dizzy isn't that strong, and Ky is probably B-tier material.

Er... I'm going to answer this question a little further, because this isn't quite right (Well, it's right, but there's more to it..) Yeah, meaty tends to mean you throw it out on oki to oust the startup, but "meaty" actually means that you're hitting with later active frames of the move (If someone says "perfect meaty," they tend to mean you're hitting with the last active frame of the move.) Basically, if a move with ten active frames hits on the first active frame (which it will in normal circumstances) the rest of the active frames still happen, but they're effectively recovery. If you create a situation (such as the opponent waking up) where the first active frames CAN'T hit, you can hit meaty with a move for extra frame advantage.

Robot that high and Sol that low? Ky and Sol under Zappa, Dizzy, and HOS?

Eh, that's either highly old fashioned or just plain wrong. I don't know a ton about how #Reload was, so maybe it was like that back then, but as far as right now, in AC goes, you're missing the point by a mile and a half. I think to understand it properly, you have to get a real grasp on what these moves ("Pokes") you claim are central to Axl's game are (I actually disagree with this. Honestly, I'd say Rensen is more important as a move, since it's a poke, a launcher, and the easiest way to get frame advantage, but that's a different story). And what they are are moves that have very good hitboxes for knocking someone out of the air from across the screen in a ridiculously short amount of time (Startup is 9F, I think the full extension is around frame 11 for 5P, maybe a little later for 2S). So when you say "Axl has no solid way to react to a jump," it raises a bit of a red flag. The reason I say this is because there's probably no character with a set of more solid anti-air tools in the game if you know how to recognize where on the screen your opponent is and what to do about it. I mean, yes, guessing games are part of any fighter. But if you think AAing someone with Axl is a gamble more often than not, you're not playing the right Axls, period. Personally, my theory is that people think nonsense like that because they're trying to think of Axl as a zoning character, which just doesn't work out (Maybe it did once, like I said, I don't know). I can name at least 4 characters off the top of my head that can zone circles around him, but that's the trick: Axl doesn't win risk-reward games trying to keep you out. Like I said, AA is a very good game for Axl because he can snipe you from the other side of the screen with a move that reaches really far really fast. But from that situation, the Axl player shouldn't be looking to keep the other person out, they should be trying to force a situation they don't like on them. Forcing them to either faultless, not tech, or take a lot of damage. That's just an example, but it comes up a ton. But anyway, my point is: some people are dumb enough to let their health get chipped away trying to get in how they do against other characters, but once you figure out the easy ways for your character to approach Axl, there are some pretty good ways to do it, and then Axl loses, end of story. Axls who don't pick that up and still try to zone you get beat down hard, plain and simple, and it's because Axl's trick isn't keeping people out the whole match, it's getting a knockdown, or making you block some string he can rensen out of, and then not letting you get back to where you want to be, which is the rule in Guilty Gear, where zoning is the exception. His game doesn't center around trying to poke you to death, it centers around trying to bait something that'll get him on top of you, and then making it hard as hell to get him off (Whether that means outranging you or just normal oki bullshit) If you're playing Axls who try to keep you out all day (Unless your name is Potemkin), tell them to pick up Venom or Testament instead.

Right, but weren't you just talking about how most people know how long Raou is out? It's not exactly a secret, and people do count down. Raou disappearing and you throwing out something FAST would be one thing, but it's just such a slow set of moves. I still disagree that it's going to catch people all that much more often than just the regular overhead. I also disagree that throwing out throw-invincible moves is that smart to do, since there are plenty of ways to beat throw-invincibility, not the least of which being, well, strikes. The safe way to get out of tick throws is to chicken block. EDIT: I guess I'm not phrasing this well. I think it's a really cool gimmick. But I think it's just that: A gimmick. Something that isn't all that solid, but that will trip people up occasionally. I don't at all mean to disparage the idea, I just think it's a little misleading to say that it's going to get people "9 out of 10 times" or whatever.

I really can't see Baiken over Pot, man. I disagree with this assessment (Though it seems to be a very popular misconception.) Losing exchanges is one thing, but people seem to have this idea that even competent Axl players will throw things out randomly hoping to score a hit by chance. On the contrary, I contend that doing so marks an Axl player as incompetent.

Nah, that's old news. Pot is pretty solid strong these days. Vince, May over Jam? Really? I could see Baiken, but Jam?

Er. Can anyone explain putting slayer under Jam and Baiken? I guess I could see under Eddie and Testament, and Pot's only a slight stretch... but that's just ridiculous.

Well yeah, but the whole point of blocking low and waiting for overheads is that overheads tend to be pretty slow and easy to recognize... and both of those overheads are. Like I said, I'm sure the surprise factor can catch people sometimes, but those are still pretty slow moves to assume people can't react to, especially considering how unsafe they are on block. I'm not saying it won't ever work on people, I'm saying the risk/reward is fairly bad.

Thanks muchly for all the positive response! Also, got some Megaupload links up. Hopefully that'll work.

"Combo" is a strong word...

Eh, I don't claim to know for sure, but I notice the same trend as Hinta: (Though probably him more than me, since I'm just watching match vids) Eddie is pretty broke, but he's staying the same and people can increasingly deal with his bullshit. Slayer and Testament both seem to be growing more, on top of the stupid stuff they were already doing near the beginning.

I dunno, that sounds like something that could trip someone up on occasion, but... 21F is still 21F. Do people really have a very hard time reacting to that on a regular basis? Especially if you lose raou and thus obviously don't have a dog covering you, that sounds risky as hell to try.

I dunno. S: SL, TE, ED, PO, A: JA, BA, AX, MA, AB, SO, B: VE, KY, FA, MI, OS, ZA, C: RO, CH, AN, IN, JO, BR Would sound approximately right to me. Maybe ZA to C and AN-IN-JO-BR to D. I'm probably way off on some of those.

Okay, mid A. I'd put him right below those guys.

Good stuff. Wish I could do all that.

Yeah, I've been trying to convert the files, but for some reason, they always have problems, like no sound or random speeding up of the framerate. Basically, macs suck. Seriously. If there's anyone on here with some expertise at this, I'd be much obliged.

Alright, so I was bored and made a combo movie, since there aren't any around for Axl in AC. Ouroboros is a straight combo vid, with music, funny video editing stuff, highly impractical combos, the works. I also made a B-Side which is part of a project I've been working on: The most damaging meterless BLoop to knockdown against every character. Kinda boring, but it's to music too! Direct download: EDIT: My host seems to have died, so here are some megaupload links. If someone would be willing to host this it would be much appreciated: Ouroboros: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FIVFED5Z "HQ" version: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VHA6GBKD (This is the big fat .MOV version, in case anyone still wants it, I don't think it looks much better) Purple Combos: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CJAN1ZVR LQ version: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/70638/Purple%20Combos_1.mp4 Youtube links, for people who don't mind shit quality: Ouroboros: Down! Purple Combos: http://youtube.com/watch?v=HjHfqlM7XdA

I could see AX being high A. He completely controls the air, has very good abare if you know what you're doing, and generally has above average damage output. Air control and large active frame counts make him pretty bad for a lot of characters. Honestly, though, I don't think he's got stuff that's as crazy as ED, TE, or SL. If he were a more solid and well-rounded character, I could see S-rank, but there's definitely something to be said for the fact that there are some situations where he's forced to just keep blocking and be really really good at 1FJing out at the right time, which makes some matchups pretty bad. So maybe JA strong, but probably not PO strong.

Um... alright. I'm just saying it doesn't work. Also, FB puffball has a minimum startup of 20 frames.

Right, but Axl doesn't have to push a button until he can visually confirm the IAD, unless you're right on top of him already, in which case just lay down pressure instead. Again, 5P on reaction to IAD, block low and counter the flash for puffball, or just 3P it, whatever, it's not that hard. I'm not saying this doesn't work out well for Jam, because the match is easily in her favor, I'm just saying don't think slow stuff is a mindgame when Axl deals with it just fine without having to guess. Hell, a well-timed 5H will beat both options. What you SHOULD do is just FD break your way in. 'Cause Axl can't pressure Jam nearly as well as she can pressure him, and if you're FDing low, you don't really have that much to fear trying to get in. Just block until you're in rape-his-face range, or come up with funnier mindgames that actually require guessing instead of assuming the opponent will twitch when he should have been patient. And like I said, your goal is all wrong. You may think max IAD/Slide to puffball range is ideal for Jam, but it's MORE ideal for Axl. You're forcing yourself to either do something slow or something KINDA slow but from the air. Instead, focus on getting into the range Axl can't operate well in at all: Right in his face. Then just do what Jam does until he blocks wrong or tries to break out when he can't. This is pretty straightforward.