RushingMonkey

and also using j.2C > 5C after hotaru, before relaunching. best 5C combo extended with hotaru should be this: 5C Renka (1) Kishuu 6C (lv2) > 2C jc Hotaru jc falling j.2C 5C > 2C (j.B) sj.2A j.2C > 6A 5C > 2C j.B j.2A j.2A AD j.2A j.C > 5C 3C ~7.7k but that hotaru part can be used to extend pretty much any corner combo anyway, it adds something like 800/1000 dmg to any combo. you just have to adjust the number of loops depending on the starter: if it's a good starter into renka (1) kishuu, after the hotaru segment, you can either do the combo above (2 loops with 6A>5C between them) or 3 standard loops. if it's a low starter you can do hotaru segment > 2 standard loops. tsubaki is a low starter proration wise, so it’s this: (I believe this combo is present in the wiki) Tsubaki > 6C (lv2) > 2C jc Hotaru jc falling j.2C 5C > 2C sj.2A j.2C > 2C sj.B j.2A j.2A AD j.2A j.C 5C 5C ~6.2k as for hotaru starter, I think the best way to extend the combo is by using tsubaki, like this: non-FC Hotaru > 6C (lv2) > 2C sj.B Tsubaki AD falling j.2C > 2C sj.2A j.2C > 2C sj.2A j.2A AD j.2A j.C > 5C 3C (~5.2k) if it’s FC you can add 6A>5C before the last loop for some extra damage.

hakumen would use 6A to punish rolls out of the corner, 2B is usally used to pickup people not teching at all. but anyway, in that situation, both normals will whiff if you use emergency/neutral tech, then hakumen will recovery and still have enough advantage to try something else. so, well, if you got a read of *another* 2B coming I guess you could try 4D... but this other 2B wasn't done to prevent a roll at that point. so it's not like "hey, he's trying to punish rolls, let's wakeup 4D!" :P it's still very risky for litchi. about 4C, hakumen won't use it that much to challenge 6B in the first place, because 1) it will lose more often than not to 6B itself 2) it will be easily eaten by itsuu guard point (which you should also use pretty often at that range) and 3) risk/reward is bad for him. IADing is ok to beat it if you got the read, but it's not like you should be that careful about using 6Bs specifically because of haku's 4C. if anything, it's hakumen that should be scared about using 4C. what you should be scared of is hakumen reading your 6B and kishuu his way in, possibly punishing you. this in turn is countered by [m]3C and [m]2B as LK said, they will score a CH on kishuu and lead to good damage and corner carry.

yeah, it works even with 2A*3 and frontal throw starter (besides arakune). iirc the only starter that doesn't work is something like 2B 2A 2A. what won't work from any starter is the corner modification of this combo, if you realize you'll reach the corner with the first airdash you should usually do this: (since it's easier and deals a little more damage) [starter] > renka(1) kishuu > hop 2C j.B j.2A AD (corner reached) j.2A j.2C > 2C j.2A AD j.2A j.C > 5C (3C) but if the starter is heavily prorated (throw or 2A*3 for example) you'll be forced to do the midscreen realunch (j.A>j.B or j.B>j.A) even if you reach the corner. --- I also wanted to post this corner throw combo I've found, it's inspired by A92's BBR vids, but i found a little extension: corner throw > 2C sj back j.2A AD j.B j.2A j.C > 6A > j.2A j.2A AD j.2A j.C > 5C 3C ~3k the purpose of this combo is to bait a burst done immediately after the first 2C while still keeping the combo up if they don't burst. this is pretty good because bursting immediately would be the right thing to do for the opponent in the usual corner throw combos. also it's very cool since most of the time the burst will be cut or will totally whiff. cut or not, at that point you airdash and punish them very easily, since you were going to do that airdash anyway. this is the best punish combo meterless I could find for that situation: ...airdash j.B j.2A j.C > 6A 6C 2C > j.B j.2A j.2A AD j.2A j.C > 5C 3C otherwise you can do ...airdash j.B > tsubaki (as seen in A92's vid) to punish them really hard

I'm sure I've landed that combo at least once on bang during my tests. it's just random :\ and yeah, about 2A starter, that's what I said, with better starters you get to skip kishuu and add j.B to adjust the height. 2A is better than 2B for haku

yeah that's pretty much what I was thinking... sitting on 5/6 stars seems to happen quite often to me :/ that kind of combo starting with renka(1) kishuu > hop 2C > gurren was exactly what I was testing initially. against a lot of characters though, either gurren was missing completely or I could hit it only by doing something like renka(1) kishuu > walk back > 2C delay gurren. and even then it seemed not very consistent -_- so I was experimenting some other routes: (4) [starter] renka (1) kishuu > hop 2C j.B j.2A AD j.B j.A > 5C gurren > hop 5B j.B j.2A AD j.2A j.C got it to work with 2B starter, but some characters end up too low at the end of the combo to connect that last j.C... have to test it more another variation I was trying with 2B starter was this: (5) [starter] renka (1) kishuu > hop 2C j.B j.2A AD j.B j.A > 5C 2C gurren > kishuu hop 2C j.2A AD j.2A j.C 2C > gurren at that distance works a lot better, I couldn't hit it consistently only on ragna, bang and makoto. also, when you hit that gurren you'll have re-charged an entire star already, so this combo actually requires 4 stars at the beginning. with better starters I was able to skip kishuu and add a j.B in the last aerial part (to adjust the height)

it seems you're right, seeing that the only other 90 P1 starter that seems to work is j.2C. too bad by the way, do you guys think is worth it to spend 1 or 2 extra stars to increase corner carry on renka-kishuu combos?

uhm, I was trying this combo Spark posted a while ago: (4) [big starter] > renka (1) gurren > IAD j.B j.A 5C kishuu > 2C j.B j.2A AD j.B j.A > 2C j.2A AD j.2A jC basically it was said that this combo is the combination of renka-gurren route and the relaunch of the usual renka-kishuu route, only possible with very good starters. in fact, I thought it worked only with 5C or naked renka starters... but accidentally I did it with 2C starter and it worked o_O 2C is listed as 90 p1, but this combo doesn't work with other 90 p1 starters such as 5B or CH 3C. I was under the assumption that a combo that works with a specific starter should work with every other starter that has the same P1, is this wrong or what?

I did some tests for you: - throw > renka fails only against Arakune - throw > kishuu > hop > renka doesn't work on Rachel and Plat. against Plat it works from backthrow though - I can confirm that (4) hop tsubaki > hop kishuu > 2C j.B j.2A AD j.B j.2A j.C [3855 / 0.9] is universal. with re-jump ender it's [4403 / 1.9], carries from P1 position to the right corner

about the midscreen tsubaki > hop kishuu > 2C combo: we talked about this with dioxideUniversa some pages ago: he said (http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?13856-EX-Hakumen-Extend-Combo-Guide&p=1318267&viewfull=1#post1318267) the only character he couldn't get it to work was Makoto, and we were talking about getting *the relaunch* to work on her. I will re-test this, but I'm 99% sure that tsubaki > hop kishuu 2C > super jump > j.B j.2A AD j.B j.2A j.C (> re-jump ender if corner is reached) is actually universal, and it does the same damage as hop>gurren route *with relaunch* (~3.8k iirc) so I would list that as universal, and relaunch variation noting that it doesn't work on Makoto (and being pretty difficult on a bunch of others). I think in this case some redundancy is allowed, the optimal combo being pretty hard and not working on one single character about the throw combo, my bad, I didn't know forward throw > renka wasn't universal T_T tbh I never actually use that. the only combo I use from midscreen throws besides gurren bnb is throw > kishuu > hop renka(1) kishuu if I think I'm close enough to the corner and I want to spend 4 stars (though I think this isn't unversal too).

actually, if litchi holds the stance and hakumen's j.B gets absorbed, he can still cancel j.B into hotaru and get FC on your follow-up. I land this shit pretty often against stance abusers :V I suppose litchi can hold the stance longer and absorb even hotaru, but it never happened to me.

well, I'd say the combo section is well organized overall, maybe some redundancy when you list both the optimal midscreen re-launch combo and basic 2C into aerial. it should be obvious that if relaunch works, basic aerial combos works too specific combos, I'm not at home right now so I can't test anything, but this is what I noticed with a quick read: - CH AA 6A > gurren etc. it's actually possibile to do the relaunch combo even if you pick up with hop 5A, pretty hard though, but sometimes the opponent is too low for both hop 2C and IAD j.B, and this is the best option (assuming you don't reach the corner midcombo). also, I think it should be worth noting that 2 out of these 3 combos permit the re-jump ender if you reach the corner at *the end* of the combo: CH 6A > gurren > hop 5A > j.B j.2A AD j.B j.2A j.C (corner) > land > re-jump j.2A AD j.2A j.C 5C 3C CH 6A > gurren > IAD j.B j.A 2C > j.2A AD j.2A j.C (corner) > land > re-jump j.2A AD j.2A j.C 5C 3C - (2) [starter] > Kishuu > Enma > J.2A > AD J.A > J.B > 2C > SJ.2A > AD J.2A > J.C [1843 - 2974 / 1.4] this combo is okay from single hitting starters or enma itself being the starter, but (I may be wrong on this though) if you hitconfirm into enma from most 2-hitters either it doesn't work or is extremely hard. in any case, I think the basic [starter] > enma > falling j.2C > 2C etc. should be listed at least. (and again, this permit re-jump ender in the corner from single hitting starters) - I think midscreen tsubaki > hop kishuu > 2C route we discussed a few pages ago should be listed too - (3) Forward Throw > Kishuu > Enma > AD J.C > Gurren > Hop 2C > J.B > J.2A > AD J.2A > J.C [2762 / 1.5] I actually didn't even know this combo, but if the damage listed is right, it seems way sub-optimal for 3 stars, with throw > gurren BNB doing 2.4k, just 300 dmg less. for 3 stars you have throw > renka (1) kishuu > 2C blabla relaunch and I'm pretty sure it's around 3.4k - zanshin > gurren combos?

from the wiki: (damage listed is from 2B starter btw) I don't know if they're already listed here somewhere but there are some combo possibilities here, as long as you connect that j.C as low as possible: (3) [starter] > kishuu > enma > AD j.2A delay j.C > hop gurren > 5C 3C easiest combo, worst starter I got it to work was 2A>2B [1778 / 1.2] (2) [starter] > kishuu > enma > AD j.2A delay j.C > land > AD j.2A j.C > 5C 3C 2A>2B starter works here too, and gets you [1889 / 1.4], but connecting that AD j.2A is pretty hard. becomes way easier with better starters. (4) [starter] > kishuu > enma > AD j.2A hotaru > 2C j.B j.2A j.2A AD j.2A j.C > 5C 3C hotaru input must be done from starting side, even if hakumen is already on the other side. again 2A>2B was the worst starter I got it to work for [2277 / 1.9]. with better starters it's possible to add 6C after hotaru wallslam.

I think that any corner combo could be adjusted to use that ender. I can't try it right now but something like this should work: tsubaki > [6C] > 2C sj.B j.2A falling j.2C > 6A 5C > 2C j.B j.2A j.C > re-jump j.2A AD j.2A j.C 5C 3C (maybe skipping that initial sj.B) --- I did some more testing and while I don't like this ender for corner combos, I think it could be good to extend corner carry combos, and not only from random hits vs airborne opponents. for istance, I was able to tag it at the end of the standard renka-kishuu midscreen bnb, with 2A starter. something like this: 2A > renka (1) kishuu > hop 2C j.B j.2A > AD j.B j.A 2C > j.2A AD j.2A j.C (corner reached at this point) > re-jump j.2A AD j.2A j.C 5C 3C I didn't wrote down dmg and heat gain differences though I think they won't be that great too, but sometimes the rejump ender could help to adjust distance / height issues in order to land the final 5C 3C. it also works for that midscreen tsubaki combo: tsubaki > hop kishuu > 2C sj.B j.2A AD j.B j.2A j.C > rejump ender

yes but, as you said, the second combo you posted is for good starters. we should compare the first one with something like this: [weak starter] > renka (1) kishuu > [6C] > 2C sj.B j.2A falling j.2C > 6A 5C > 2C j.B j.2A j.2A AD j.2A j.C > 5C 3C (basically, one loop less) I did some testing with weak starters and the result is that the re-jump ender is still not worth it imho. for example with 2A 2A starter I got 3849 dmg / 2.6 star (standard ender) vs 3913 dmg / 2.7 star (re-jump ender) thanks but my execution is average at best, in those kind of random hit corner carry combos adding that re-jump j.2A is way easier than in a full corner combo as the ones we were discussing above you should try it

I see your point, I have to check the dmg / heat gain differences with the other weak starters. by the way, I actually use that re-jump ender a lot but not from "common" starters like throw o renka>kishuu combos. I usually go for it when I land some random anti-air or air-to-air starter, sometimes I don't realize that I'm that close to the corner and autopilot into superjump > aerial. at that point I know I could add 1 more loop but the height isn't good for the usual falling j.2C > 2C relaunch, so I go for that j.C > re-jump j.2A.

about that corner throw combo, there's an easier variation anyway throw > 6A 6C > (hop) 2C j.B j.2A j.2A > AD j.2A j.C 5C 3C exactly 3200 dmg / 2.4 star gain I don't know if it's really worth it to go with that harder j.C > re-jump j.2A route with a difference of 78 dmg and 0.2 star gain. --- about the D-starter combos, I think spending 1 extra star for gurren is worth it most of the times (especially considering that star comes free with the counter anyway). corner carry is a lot better, I think it's maximized by using gurren > airdash route rather than gurren > hop whatever: 2D > (hop or walk a little) 5C gurren > AD j.B j.A > 2C j.2A AD j.2A j.C (5C 3C) also works with 6D starter (> hop 5C gurren etc. I'm pretty sure you have to skip the initial j.2C) it's possibile to reach both corners and get your 5C 3C knockdown from P1 position

^ I think you are not supposed to hold 6C in that combo

uhhh.. I dunno, since you said you could reach the 5C > 2C part, I assumed you pretty much knew the various delays needed for that combo... maybe the problem is before the airdash then. you need to delay almost everything. I'll try to break it down: 5C renka(1) kishuu => you have to hop or wait a little before 2C 2C jc j.B j.2A => delay j.B a little after the jump cancel, then delay j.2A as long as you can, it should hit with the hilt of the sword, hakumen should be lower than the opponent (this j.2A is the crucial part, if you can do it right, the rest should be pretty easy) airdash itself should be delayed a little, then hit j.B just before hakumen begins to lose the airdash forward momentum, delay j.A when he starts falling, then hit 5C as soon as possible and you're set. for j.A j.B the delays involved are a little different: more delay after the airdash, not so much between jA and j.B since j.A untech time won't permit it.

you need to hit the opponent pretty high in the air with that 5C in order to relaunch with 2C afterwards. the problem is probably in the airdash j.B j.A part, you're not delaying the j.A enough. alternatively, try using j.A j.B instead, that should leave the opponent higher. also, with 5C starter you can do an additional loop in the corner

thanks, but I'm not just omitting the 5C, I'm also moving 6A 6C (which are basically the only totally safe burst point for the opponent) in the middle of the combo, after the first loop in most combos you can do something like that, basically you use 6A after the first loop, then 5C or 6C (if you didn't already use it) > 2C relaunch > j.B etc. especially, moving the 6C midcombo is useful to make the beginning of the combo more burst safe while still dealing good damage (for damage purposes is always better to use 6[C] lv2 right at the beginning instead) for example, these are 2 routes I use with corner tsubaki starter: - tsubaki > 6[C] (lv2) > hop > 2C sj.2A j.2C > 6A > 5C > 2C j.B j.2A j.2A AD j.2A j.C > 5C 3C 5.4k dmg - tsubaki > hop (> wait a little in case they burst) 2C sj.2A j.2C > 6A > 6C > 2C j.B j.2A j.2A AD j.2A j.C > 5C 3C should be around 5k I don't remember exactly

wow, I guess my execution really sucks T_T thank you for further testing I think for now I'll stick to the no-relaunch version (or gurren variation) against those character though. on an unrelated note, I wanted to post this corner throw combo before but I forgot: (3) corner throw > renka(1) kishuu > (wait) 2C sj.2A j.2C > 6A > 6C > 2C j.B j.2A j.2A airdash j.2A j.C > 5C 3C (4003 dmg) I'm using this combo a lot lately because it is burst safe in the beginning while still dealing 4k, a lot of people burst immediately when I throw them and they see I have 3 stars, since they expect 5C into renka.

actually IB is not needed to kishuu between the two hits, and it works against both ground followups, though I think the low one has a smaller gap. also, D counters on the second hit are possible of course, but the counter animation won't reach most of the time unless litchi dash into it. best overall answer imho is blocking the first hit and jump *barrier* over the second (you have to activate the barrier because it shrinks your hurtbox, otherwise the second hit won't whiff). this also works against both ground followups. you won't punish her but you get a free pressure string. and of course if she goes into the stance too freely misjudging the distance, you can just get a free CH 3C (stance doesn't absorb lows!) from which you can get 3k+. about the anti-air followup there's nothing you can really do besides trying to double jump over it if you still have that option... well I guess yomi j.D would work but risk/reward is stupid. just forget about air-dashing when she's holding the staff.

ok, I was wrong about valk and rachel, it works on them. here's my complete results: works on: bang jin ragna noel litchi tager lambda hazama mu relius plat difficult but possible: tsubaki - stricter timing, can't delay that first j.2A too much, which makes the AD j.B j.A segment way harder valk - same as tsubaki, but easier rachel - I was able to do it just once, can't delay *anything* at the beginning, which makes the AD j.B j.A segment almost impossible couldn't do it at all on: hakumen arakune carl (couldn't even hit the j.B ) taokaka (I suspect it would work with the same timings I got it on rachel, but I wasn't able to do it even once) makoto (same as carl o_O)

I'll test it more thoroughly this evening, for now I can remember I couldn't do it on carl, rachel, valk and some others. problem here is the distance when you pick them up with 2C. when you jump cancel it into j.B > they'll be too far for *delay* j.2A to connect afterwards. also for the same reason, you'll be forced to use j.B j.A later, j.A j.B won't reach.

I did some more testing, the kishuu 2C pickup itself is universal, but I couldn't do the relaunch variation on some characters however, you can keep things simple by just omitting the relaunch: hop tsubaki > hop kishuu > 2C sj.B j.2A AD j.B j.2A > j.C dmg is 3855, basically equal to the gurren variation with relaunch (of course this is worse in corner carry and meter gain)