legacy49i

Ok, so I tested it, and you're right. 5 frames will win. 6 frames and you get an unfavorable exchange. I must've always been mashed by 5 frame pokes. Or my memory just sucks. Or maybe it was a previous game version with different frame data.

Hmmmmm... Never knew that. Good to know. Something still doesn't add up, though, cuz I KNOW you can poke out Noel's 5D. It happens to me plenty often. Also, is there any article on Revolver Action (Gatling, whatever) and how cancelling attacks into other attacks affect frame data?

It takes a frame to register the attack, as well as block the attack. If you cancel the attack on the first active frame, well the last active frame is the same as the first block stun frame. So that's 1 frame. 17 frames later you will stop blocking. It takes 23 frames to get active on Noel's 5D. Simple math 23 - 17 = 6. So you have 6 frames of freedom before Noel will hit you the 2nd time.

Even if that's the case, you still have 6 frames on a normal block and not 5.

First off, KOS-MOS is the best! I would marry her! Second, don't do the 22C until after you see the gunshot come out from the 3C. You have to do the 22C after the active frames of 3C. And be very deliberate about it. Do a very clean 22C, and don't be mashy about it. Mashing worked in every previous version, but it doesn't work in CP. GreeniX, they don't HAVE to be on the ground to use Silencer. They just need to be in "grounded" status. So like I said earlier, do 22C AFTER the active frames on 3C. They will be considered "grounded" on the 2nd active frame on 3C, even if they haven't touched the ground yet.

But you're not looking at this correctly. 5C has 18 frames of block stun, yes, but watch this: 5C = 12 startup, 6 active frames. If you hit on the first active frame (as in, you've got them in a block string) you've just soaked up 5 of the block stun frames. Noel won't finish her 5C animation until frame 5 of block stun, which means now there's only 13 frames left. 5D = 23 start up, 4 active frames. Remove the 13 frames left of block stun from the previous 5C, and you're left with 10 frames before 5D goes active. Which gives a 6 frame poke 4 frames of leeway. It is 100% possible to A mash out 5D.

I'm still not buying that you can't just A mash out a Drive starter after 5C. I'm pretty sure you can mash out 5D, 6D, 4D, and even 2D. ALL of Noel's Drive starters have a decent sized gap before they go active. I'm gonna independently verify this tonight after work.

Gotcha.

Uhm, if Noel does 5C - 5D, you can just mash A to break out. And anything - 6B isn't air tight. 6B has a hella long startup. Or maybe I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you talking about Noel or Izayoi?

What's going on here? Someone doesn't understand the basic game mechanics (5 years old, mind you), and instead of learning, he rages in public?

You don't 360 after d.6B or d.6D, you 360 BEFORE them. And 360B is the better option. I'm pretty sure you can 360 after a d.6C (The boomerang gun move), but I'm not 100%. I am a Noel main. Tager is my sub, but I'm not super good with him. Just good enough to netplay and make noobs rage. If you want any answers, I can answer to the best of my ability. To be honest, if you're netplaying, and a Noel is trying Drive mixup, you can usually just spin the stick and mash B (or C with Heat) and you'll Buster as soon as there's an opening. It's usually pretty free.

It IS a pretty shitty matchup (For Noel, that is). And there's no guessing with 4D/2D. 2D is no longer an effective starter to beat lows. It arcs so high now that it will miss entirely at close range. Now it's pretty much 4D to beat mids and block everything else. And to my knowledge, 4D never beat lows. It used to beat highs and mids, and you could use 2D to beat lows. Now 4D only beats mids, and 2D does nothing for you.

Uhhh, last I checked 4D WAS invul on frame 1. What are you talking about?

If your back is to the wall, you can't backdash donkey dick. I remember doing something so simple as GF - backdash (Inferno Divider whiff) - 360B. Whoever decided that he needed less invul is an asshole. Used to be that a well-timed backdash could turn the tides very quick. Now a well-timed back dash just gets you pwnd for free.

Tager's backdash is a bag of dicks. I get hit by nearly everything anytime I try to backdash. D:

If that's the case, then it must have always ignored combo rate.

Well, my mentality before was: 1500 guaranteed damage. Now that damage is scaled, I just figured it would work like any other move. If everything I think is true, then now you get 1000 minimum damage, and no effect on scaling whatsoever afterward. Even though the attack itself can lose damage, nothing after it will. So it makes no difference where it occurs within a combo, so long as it happens at all. Edit: What I said probably didn't make sense. I don't mean that nothing after it loses damage. I mean that MF is not factored into damage scaling afterward. So it's basically free, inconsequential damage. Edit again: If 1.0 info is correct, then even though you always get 1500 damage, it would still scale every attack afterwards by Noel's 80% combo rate. If my theories on 1.1 info are true, then even though you're only getting 1000 minimum damage, you're gaining back damage on every attack afterward by about 20%.

If it does, then that's pretty significant, because it means that using it won't affect the damage of any of the moves that follow it, unless it's the first move (shitty P1).

But how would you explain Fenrir doing the same damage after 5C and also after 5C - MF? The MF HAS to inflict some loss on the combo. Unless MF ignores character combo rate. Which I suppose is possible, since our data is out of date. I guess I'd have to test if MF causes loss on different combos. I'll get to the bottom of this if it kills me!!!

2C has 2 hits, and each hit has separate base damage. But that brings us to another issue: If a move has multiple hits, is each hit calculated separately, or is the move considered a single move? And this is even more important on moves where multiple hits are a matter of fact, like Muzzle Flitter, where it's impossible to not get both hits. It's all or nothing.

P1 only matters on the first move of the combo. P1 of every other move goes ignored. P2 is used on every other move when factoring damage. 5C has a P1 of 100%, so there is no loss of damage from it's P value. Muzzle Flitter has a P2 of 100%. So if you did 5C - Muzzle Flitter, they would both do full, unprorated damage. HOWEVER, the character combo rate would dictate MF only doing 80% of it's full damage, according to the equation. But even that's not true, because it actually GAINS 15% damage. And as far as I can tell, there is no 1.1 frame data. Also, even if MF has a higher base damage than 1600, and the first hit of 0 damage was factored in, it's still a mathematical impossibility. Since we're dealing with percentages, and Noel's combo rate is 80%, there will ALWAYS be a loss of damage. Edit: There SHOULD always be a loss of damage. So something is missing. Edit Again: I just realized that the P values are meaningless on 1.0 data, since MF always does 100% damage. I really need 1.1 data for MF to actually make any sense of this. Also, does the stream of bullets on Fenrir all count as 1 attack, or does proration effect each bullet individually?

What you just said makes no sense and does NOT follow the equation. According to the wiki, and according to the basic rules of the game, every successive move will lose a percentage of damage per each character's predefined combo rate, unless that move has special prorate properties. Also, any raw move WILL do base damage by the very definition. Something is clearly missing from either the wiki's combo equation or Noel's frame data table.

@Luna - None of what you said factors in character combo rate, which would dictate a universal loss of damage regardless of action taken. And the frame data doesn't show any special prorates, except on 2C follow-up to Revolver Blast.

So that only works when Kokonoe is in Overdrive?

Nah. Does like 2.5k. While we're on the topic, could someone please explain to me why some moves do MORE damage following a 5C than they would just on their own? It only works with certain moves. Fenrir and Muzzle Flitter for sure. Fenrir does 2487 by itself. 5C - Fenrir does 3375, which breaks down to 5C doing 680 and Fenrir doing 2695. Muzzle Flitter does 1600 by itself. 5C - Muzzle Flitter does 2520, which breaks down to 5C doing 680 and Muzzle Flitter doing 1840. Also, when you do 5C - Muzzle Flitter - stuff, it doesn't affect the damage scaling compared to just doing 5C - stuff. Like the Muzzle Flitter is just free, unprorated damage. But it only works like that when you do 5C - Muzzle Flitter, and not anything else - Muzzle Flitter. i.e.: 5C - Fenrir = 3375 5C - MF = 2520 5C - MF - Fenrir = 5215 680 + 2695 = 3375 680+ 1840 = 2520 680 + 1840 + 2695 = 5215 Fenrir does the EXACT same damage, and it doesn't matter if the Muzzle Flitter is there or not. Edit: I just read the wiki for calculating combo damage. Seems that each successive move will drop damage by the percentage of the 1st move's P1, all the following move's P2s, and the character combo rate. 5C has a P1 of 100%, and Muzzle Flitter has a P2 of 100%, HOWEVER, Noel's combo rate is 80%, which means there should still be a 20% loss in damage on the next move, and it still doesn't explain the INCREASED damage on the move following 5C!