Teyah

Just finished answering all three surveys. Took longer than expected, wrote a lot in comment boxes. Hope it helps!

I think you're just trying to throw the enemy when they have throw invincibility. The most common situations that would make it look like the enemy is ducking under WT would be 1) on wakeup - enemy has 9 frames of throw invul 2) during blockstun / hitstun (but not stagger) - enemy cannot be thrown 3) after the enemy is leaving blockstun - enemy has 5 frames of throw invul 4) after the enemy is leaving hitstun - enemy has 6 frames of throw invul So if your GF FRC -> WT is whiffing, you're most likely inputting the grab too early while they're either still in blockstun, or still have some of their 5 frames of throw invul left.

I don't know if I'm reading this right, but - are you saying that WT whiffs on crouchers? If so.. I think you had better check that again.

Hey, no worries. It's true that it is tougher to land the IAD down j.S + far drill FRC UBs, but it is very doable with enough practice. And I also agree that using reversals to lessen damage is generally a good idea, unless the reversal leaves you in CH state (then you'll just get dizzied via 6P CH). If you summon with Nobiru, if it is blocked you can generally follow up with running 2S to Far Drill (or running 2P-2K if closer), then Mawaru, to begin shadow mixups. It's not really a big commitment at all, and is one of the preferred ways to go from blocked normal -> shadow mixup. Jumping IB -> backdash can work for characters who get distance off the ground quickly (eg. May), but for most characters it doesn't work too well since you get caught by Nobiru fairly close to the ground and get pushed down to the ground or below minimum airdash range while still in blockstun. For a low/slow jumper like Hoss, jumping away is not too effective unless you are a decent distance away.

From far away, you can jump away from any poke -> shadow summon fairly easily (and you should), but this is not the case up close: Eddie can do summon -> Nobiru, which will be blocked and force you back to the ground. Backdashing can also be risky, since you can get caught by Mawaru if Eddie just summons into that instead. You can reversal out of the puddle/far drill unblockables, but Eddie will land before your reversal comes out and will block it, allowing him a free punish. You also can't FD jump out of the (FB) drill + shadow D UB if it is timed properly, and I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying the Drill FRC IAD UB doesn't work on HOS. For a more detailed list of Eddie's UBs and how to escape them, please see sections 10.1 + 10.2 of the AC Eddie guide.

I also filled this survey out yesterday. Looking forward to seeing how other Eddie players responded.

Thanks for the responses. The Order-Sol players I took these combos from were Kaqn, KZO, and Inoue. From what I've heard these three seem to be among the top OR players in Japan, but I did only look at ~10 videos in total, so this isn't a completely representative sample. In these vids I rarely saw HJI used or relaunch dustloops, most of this probably due to positioning not being perfect to hit with them. A landed CH Fafnir was also rare, most of them were blocked / whiffed. I don't doubt at all that he can break 200 damage in some combos, what I'm saying is that he's far from it in the average successful mixup / CH situation.

I really don't want to get off-topic here, but I can explain why I'm here if you don't know. In this thread, Hellmonkey basically made a post saying "no you're wrong" with a whole bunch of unqualified statements (I've reposted this quote twice already). Then he closed the thread before I had a chance to respond, leaving me with the message to take it to the OS forums for further discussion; so now I'm here trying to separate the bad from the ugly... If the damage issue has been settled, can we move on to mixups? I'm really itching to know how Order-Sol's mixups (or lack of) make him above average in this category too. For mixups, Order-Sol has: - 2K that leads to 50 dmg + knockdown - 2H overhead that requires 50% tension (unless you somehow CH with it) and leads to 97 dmg + knockdown - A short-ranged dust that has big lag at the start, making it easy to see and not too useful - Late crossup that is usually limited to okizeme situations, does ~35% dmg but no kd if it works - Throw that does good damage in corner only - Level 3 overhead that leads to BIG DMG (if you can get level 3 consistently) - A lot of moves that can hurt you if they CH (but this isn't a mixup really) If I am missing something, it'd be appreciated it someone could add it. Also, some explanations as to why these mixups are so strong would be great, as I certainly don't see anything overly threatening about any of these. Thanks!

Can all definitely do over 50% in practical B&Bs: Eddie A.B.A Slayer Jam Axl Johnny Testament Sol May Potemkin

Thanks for the reply TB. I would consider average damage from a full B&B in AC to be ~50%: this is 210 damage against Sol. From what I've seen in pretty much every OS match video I've watched, he isn't able to get 50% damage without serious guard gauge jacking (certainly not exclusive to Order-Sol) or landing a CH Fafnir (not the 'average' combo). Judging from videos, in actual matches it usually takes him ~4 successful mixups or punishes into combos to deal a full bar of damage. Here are some practical combos from mixups I've noticed from OS vids and tested: Gunblaze, r.5Sc, sj.S-H-D, BR: 148 dmg FB Fafnir, r.2S-5H, IAD j.K, SV: 173 dmg Corner throw, rj.H-D, dj.H-D, land 5Sc, sj.S-H-D BR LV2: 146 dmg + kd Gunblaze LV2, 5Sc sjc.S-H-D: 144 dmg And some CH situations: j.H CH, r.2S-5H, IAD j.P-H, SV: 152 dmg 2S CH 6H RC, r.5K-5Sc-2S-2D: 153 dmg + kd CH 5H CC, rj.H-D, dj.H-D, BR LV2: 181 dmg + kd One of the few times I was able to see OS break 210 damage in a practical setup was via FB Fafnir CH, so I tested a couple of those out as well: FB Fafnir CH, r.5S-5H, j.S dj.S, SV LV2: 217 dmg FB Fafnir CH, r.5S-5H, sj.S-H-D, BR LV2: 219 dmg + kd So yeah, it really looks like the magic range for OS combos is "140 - 160 damage", with a bit more added to that if using Level 2s or FB Fafnir. From what I've seen and tested, I don't see Order-Sol being capable of dealing 210+ damage from the average setup into B&B, even with a level 2. It looks to me like most of his main combos deal ~35% with good positioning (slightly less otherwise), with FB Fafnir + charge + CH being the exception that can actually break 50%. Average damage from full B&Bs I would place around 40%, but I feel even that's being a bit generous. CCing has its uses in combos for sure, but as far as an actual pressure tool (as it was initially believed to be) it's not as much of threat as was thought early on in the game's life. Frame advantage is good, but when you're blowing most of it on dashing back in because your reach is so short, there are definitely limitations there.

Right.. but it is not difficult for Sol to obtain 50% tension before or during a random connected hit and then go into a high damage combo. Whereas OS has no such option with an additional 50%, really. Anyhow, my main point of discussion was this quote here, which I'd like to get back to: I just want to see some examples of this average to above average damage of Order-Sol's on both basic random hits and B&Bs, examples of mixups that outdo at least half the cast's in terms of practicality, damage, and further setups, and also some very threatening uses of his 'great CC'. And I am speaking in realistic terms here, so please don't respond with only stuff like Level 3 combos.

Depending on the poke, Sol gets a lot of damage (sometimes a full B&B!). And if it is or goes to a 2D, he can easily BR RC into B&B for high damage as well. On random stuff like j.H, he at least gets a knockdown, which Order-Sol does not, unless he's carrying charge (not too common). For mixups, I'm referring to the options of being able to go high (2H RC), low, throw, and occasional crossup instead of just low/throw and sometimes crossup. Or is 2H RC not used much anymore? Either way, low mixup leads to like 50 dmg (lol) + knockdown, crossup does ok damage (150ish?) but no knockdown unless carrying charge, and throw is only good in the corner. Just seems rather unimpressive to me, especially considering the risk and ease of escaping most of this via something like FD jump.

Yeah, I was comparing to the average cast member in AC, not like.. one of the worst (Bridget). It is good to know that he isn't at the bottom though! And I did mention his 'most effective' mixups happen when he has 50%, not all mixups. The only really threatening thing I can think of otherwise, is corner throw at level 2/3, which leads to good damage and another knockdown in a bad situation.

Okay, so Hellmonkey says From what I've seen, Order-Sol has lower than average damage output on any connected hit (when compared to the rest of the cast), and less than average damage on a successful mixup -> B&B. His mixup also requires 50% tension to use most effectively, while many characters have more reliable/damaging forms of mixup for less (or for free). I also rarely see his 'great CCs' used in matches anymore... can ye olde Hoss forum explain/correct some of these things for me so the above quoted post makes sense? Many thanks!

Yeah, the equips highlighted in red are character-specific and predetermined; the yellow ones are just randomly chosen from the remaining EX/Golds (or you may get none at all sometimes). All predetermined equips: Lv100 - EX Shadow Bridget = Hunter Saving Lv340 - EX Shadow Johnny = Guard Mist Finer Lv440 - EX Shadow A.B.A = Berserk Mode Lv700 - Gold Bridget = Hunter Saving Lv720 - Gold Potemkin = Soul of Zepp Lv860 - Gold Axl = Time Traveling Lv880 - Gold Slayer = Vampire Form Lv910 - Gold May = May's Fist Lv960 - Gold Sol = Sheer Heart Attack Lv970 - Gold A.B.A = Berserk Mode - Hunter Saving and Berserk Mode won't appear if you already have them on. Just when I wanted to try out a Berserk Mode / Soul of Zepp / Berserk Mode combo... Edit: Actually this applies to every ability. - Guard Mist Finer doesn't appear with Gold Johnny, I assume since there is no more need for it. - Hunter Saving has the side effect of lowering attack power by 1/2 or so, if it wasn't already noted.

Here's the final order, just a bit different from what Blade had listed: 0880 – GOLD Slayer 0900 – GOLD Jam 0910 – GOLD May 0920 – GOLD Johnny Let's Enjoy a Great Showtime 0930 – GOLD Dizzy 0940 – GOLD Robo-Ky 0950 – GOLD I-no 0960 – GOLD Sol 0970 – GOLD A.B.A 0980 – GOLD Kliff 0990 – GOLD Justice 0999 – GOLD Boss Hoss Also here is the clip of me scrubbing out at Lv999 from last night: http://www.sendspace.com/file/46ptbd And here are my stats at the very end (Lv990), after having accidentally Time Travelled back 500 levels: http://www.sendspace.com/file/00fuye

I said it was horribly non-meaty because well... it is. It seems like you're greatly overestimating the downed time on OTG hits. You can test this out yourself if you like, or just watch this video clip (recorded using first frame CPU teching, with an early j.6PH, j.S as possible). This shows many ways out, including a non-reversal Slash VV CHing the j.S, which means there is an 8+ frame gap here at the least. As a side note, if you look at the connected airthrow here, note how quickly Sol gets up shortly after Millia lands - this certainly isn't enough time to dash -> Disc. And since you end up just outside of the corner, all Discs can just be backdashed here as well, leaving this as a very suboptimal setup. If you're in the corner and rushed for time (which itself isn't too common since you usually push the enemy to the corner via combos), any successful mixup leads to a knockdown and gives you your potentially round ending scenario. If you arrived from a combo, then you're already in the scenario. I wouldn't OTG at midscreen either, except for situations where you don't have time to set up a Disc, and even then only once every few rounds or so to see if the enemy is caught off guard and fails the tech. You risk giving up far less here than you do in the corner by going for the OTG. In the corner I would never OTG (outside of OTG kills), because you always have better options there.

"Time Travelling" = sends you back ~500 levels (sent me from 860 -> 357). Sounds bad, but you can further level yourself up this way. "Soul of Zepp" = 2x attack and defense, very nice. "Vampire Form" = Recovers as you deal damage. Much, much better than Life Recover. "May's Fist" = Deals higher stun (2x-3x) on all attacks, nice as well. "Sheer Heart Attack" = Extra damage? I swapped it out for Soul of Zepp and noticed I was doing slightly less damage but that's it. Also, Attack/Defense max out at 15, not 20. Best items now IMO: Soul of Zepp, Vampire Form, May's Fist Oh and I scrubbed out to Lv999 Gold Ordersol lol

I think I had Life Recover and Berserk on at the same time, so that's why I didn't see the poison effect. Bonus Up does not store more abilities, that's what I originally thought though. Maybe it increases the life bonus after matches? Shrug, gaining 20 levels a round either way is pretty easy so it's not too big of a deal which one you pick. For the best specials, those you listed aren't bad, but I would take Vampire Attack over Life Regain, as well as Berserk Mode and one of Hunter Saving/Experience Up.

Looks like Kliff got hit by the nerf stick in quite a few ways, but got a couple welcome changes. - 6P has had its insane stun multiplier lessened. It now takes about as many hits as Eddie's to stun someone (much harder since Kliff's 6P only hits once). Feels like it went from 5x or 6x -> 3x. - The 214P dodge is still invincible to strikes all the way through, but is now fully throwable - Kliff has become heavier by a slight amount, he no longer floats away like May during combos. His air hitbox feels like a lighter version of Chipp or Zappa. - j.D now gatlings from j.H, allowing for it to be used as a late overhead in jump-ins. It also knocks the enemy up and back higher, allowing for better combo opportunities (Reflex Roar will combo from anywhere, better stuff is probably doable in the corner) - Air Reflex Roar FB (236D) is new. Does good damage and wallsticks on hit, but is techable afterwards. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like you can rapidfire TK them in the corner for an easy loop, there's some amount of time after you do one where you're not allowed to do it again. If you use a normal like j.S in between you're usually ok, but this seems tough to do.

Played through AC+ Survival, seems a lot more fun with all those random abilities added in. Also seems like making it to level 999 won't be near impossible this time since levels go by pretty quick. Here are some more options you get at every 20 level interval: "Guard Beat" = you receive no damage from the 2nd hit of a combo onwards. Not bad against random supers, but would be more useful if the CPU knew how to combo! "Berserk Mode" = you deal 2-3x regular damage, pretty crazy. No side effects. "Life Recover" = Regens life at a pretty decent pace. "Hunter Saving" seemed to do the same thing as "Experience Up", which is allow for quick level gaining in Survival. Having both will net you 20 levels in half a round or so. Very useful to have at least one of these. "Bonus Up" = no idea.

Well yeah, at low life many unfavourable risk/reward setups become more appealing. The window to tech is small but anyone who knows to drum their fingers will tech it with relative ease. If you do OTG into jump, you pretty much throw away any chance of solid oki right there. j.6PH, j.S OS airthrow will result in a horribly non-meaty j.S if they don't tech; if they do tech you get (at best) a 55 dmg airthrow into suboptimal pressure. Turning a potentially round-ending scenario of corner kd into something like... this.. is just wasteful unless they're near death and you've got them read like a book.

If the line of thinking is that people watching these kinds of videos do so for the music, I don't believe that. Most of the time I mute the volume when watching combo vids anyway. Tough luck Rae, hopefully you can get this worked out.

The original frame data is wrong, this error was noted in the errata list in a subsequent issue of Arcadia. Also, you can pretty obviously tell it's not active for 17F just by looking at the move 3 or 4 frames active time seems about right.

Against 6H -> throw stuff you can try to FD jump out, but if you do, make sure you immediately IAD down and away or just come down with j.K since you shouldn't hang around in the air too long. Jam has great AAs against Eddie in j.S, 5Sf, and possibly 2H, which lead to combos or tech -> mindgames. If you want to poke out of that, use 2P(-2P) or 5P-2P since it is leads to free knockdown on hit (2D) and summon on block (5H-236K). Also remember to delay your UBs by ~5 frames due to Jam's slower get-up animation from the ground. Tbh I don't really have much experience against competent Jams, I've only played a couple for short periods of time. Look up the recent FRXI vids of Flash vs Latif if you want to see Latif's approach to fighting this matchup.