Teyah

I'll be running some tests this weekend on CRT setups. I've already clocked a couple of versions of GG and will finish the rest off then. Watch for a thread on this early next week.

It's finally arrived - Guilty Gear is here on modern consoles. Let's use this thread to share our info, report on the netcode, complain about the lag, and other fun stuff. I'll start! Gamertag: TeyahDL Location: West Canada Time online: Weekday evenings Giving it a go now. Hopefully this works at least as good as PC AC.

I haven't tested it (yet) but my understanding is that it's actually a '1F faster' jump, not a 1F jump. Just try doing it with Robo-Ky or Pot, they still jump noticeably slower than everyone else and their jumps don't look like one frame. It's one of a lot of things on my 'I should get around to testing this' list.

You definitely can move closer to twitch reaction time, but in doing so you're also increasing your chances of reacting to the wrong or fake cues - basically, you're using educated guesses. But for Testament's 6P, that move is 17F which is borderline blockable on reaction (by people with very fast reflexes only) so it's not that out of the question. Other fast overheads, like Eddie 6K (18F), are telegraphed early and can also be blocked on reaction on a consistent basis by some people. There is a point I'd like to bring up about the additional lag / startup of overheads that was added in, though. The extra startup of moves has been spread fairly evenly from what I can tell - for example, with May's 5D, there's a frame or two added during the initial spin and then another frame or two added right before the actual hit. This means that on top of the added 3-ish frame startup, it also telegraphs even earlier now, which makes it easier to block than if no extra lag/startup had been added. The way to avoid this would be if Arcsys added all of the startup right at the end of the move, but this would animate pretty awkwardly. So instead we get easier/earlier cues on top of extra startup, which might just end up making these overheads too easy to block. Also, that was a great write-up you did on reaction time. Major props to you, sir.

So while catching up on match vids I couldn't help but notice that a bunch of overheads seemed slower, so I went back and re-watched them in slow motion. Here's what I found (with timestamps included if you want to see): Ky 5D: 23F -> 27F, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5l6jo5fM5E#t=24m31s May 5D: 26F -> 29F, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5l6jo5fM5E#t=22m47s May Jackhound: Still 24F/32F OTG, no change, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5l6jo5fM5E#t=34m16s Millia TKBM: Still 16F, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg8AMQqpSg8#t=1m42s Millia 6K: Still 20F to hit crouching, can be seen clearly at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg8AMQqpSg8#t=4m20s Potemkin 6K: 19F; probably the same as AC (18F), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cOy4hXIs5A#t=10m48s Axl 6H: 23F -> 27F, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNXN46jC8V4#t=2m6s Axl 5D: 26F -> 29F. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNXN46jC8V4#t=1m31s Faust 5D: 26F -> 29F, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EHn7wUeE9c#t=14m51s Slayer 5D: 22F -> 25F, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5l6jo5fM5E#t=25m48s Anji 3P: 20F -> 23F, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5l6jo5fM5E#t=34m13s Bridget 6K: 23F -> 26F, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5l6jo5fM5E#t=42m45s Order-Sol 2H: Still 23F, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg8AMQqpSg8#t=1m25s Kliff 5D: 22F -> 27F, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNXN46jC8V4#t=5m45s - The reason this move seems so fast is that most of the startup is him crouching down which is practically indistinguishable from his normal crouching stance. I guess it's worth noting that most of the overheads in these examples that actually hit, were the ones that weren't slowed down. Just a note that the numbers given are ballpark figures to see overall speed changes. Since the videos are in 30 fps the frame counts could be +1 or -1 of what I've listed but not more than that, but the more likely result is what I've listed. It's reassuring that they let characters like Millia and Pot keep their close up unreactable mixups by not slowing down their moves, which would have also messed with oki timings/setups as well (for Millia especially). And because of the extra input delay due to LCDs/green bar netcode/other factors, on the slim chance that people were consistently blocking these mixups on reaction before, they definitely will not be doing so now. Also, obligatory pat on the back for predicting this many months ago!

I was just watching the a-cho 255th ranbat video and noticed that May's dust seemed a little slower than I remember: So I slowed the video down and took a look - it looks to be 30 frames startup now, up from 26F in AC. Wondering how many other dusts got this treatment?

Some of the biggest changes if you're coming from newer Arc games: 1) There is much more freedom of movement in GG due to zero-recovery FD break and fast dash acceleration speeds across the board, and zero landing recovery on (non Dust) normals 2) Knockdown situations and momentum favour the attacker to a much stronger degree, due to instant, damaging throws and difficult to react to or unreactable high/lows 3) There is a stronger emphasis on the ground game as the majority of characters have solid, reliable reactionary antiairs that can convert into decent damage and/or knockdown The other games feel dated in comparison.

Weiss shadow H (the mine) hits low on first hit only, followed by two mid hits - same as in past games and same as the new nerfed FB drill. Command throw or combo into mine UB is still going to hurt quite a bit.

Unfortunately I don't see too many uses for Weiss, due to two key changes from #R to Slash to AC: first, 2K no longer hits low - this used to be the go to low option after -K- j.K, now Eddie has to do 5K-5S/2S which has more pushback and gives much worse options for followups. Second, his dash acceleration was slowed down from #R to Slash, making chasing after the enemy after buzzsaw much worse since it takes longer to reach the enemy. Still, I think it will be useful on enemies in the corner or near the corner who get knocked down, since you can get that initial mixup into dust into high damage mine UB. And if 2K has been changed to hit low again, I think it'll be useful at more ranges than just the corner. Also, Weiss -P- is way more useful than normal -P- at neutral, so there are probably some applications there too.

You can find Shadow Weiss (old shadow) properties here in poon's guide from the Eddie forum: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?8773-Eddie-in-Reload-poon-s-guide Not sure about the Weiss moves in AC+R since it's uncertain if they (-S- and -D-) act like #R or Slash versions, or something new altogether. If it's like Slash, then D dolphin UBs probably won't lead to much since the dolphin launches them. It might be possible to do UBs in the corner using 1-hit SG, but this will probably require use of AD j.D into SG FRC which would be character specific and not possible to do on reaction to a single -S- hit like the SG UBs of the past.

He has one move based on a random number generator and only when certain conditions are met, and this is largely a non-factor because a) the move is not that great on its own, so it won't be attempted very often and b) when done in combos, the chance of having to go through the RNG is pretty low. Compare this to Zappa and Faust who have random dice rolls on two of their most important moves, though Zappa can remove this by summoning on a 0, 1, or 2 on the timer. It's really not the same at all.

Hey - looks like you're in the $50-70 budget range from what you've said, and you haven't yet decided if you want a stick or a pad. Here is what I feel is the best of each within that range. Pad: In looking for a good pad, the most important part - by far - is the d-pad itself. This is why I don't recommend 6-button pads like the Saturn-style fight pads out there, or the new analog clicky style pads. The d-pads on these are just one big plastic chunk with no separation between individual directions, which translates to imprecise inputs. To me, the definitive winner in this category is the standard Sony Dual Shock 1 or 2, with its smooth, segmented pad. The only caveat is that new Dual Shocks come with a gritty, bumpy covering that takes a little time to wear off, but once it does, it's smooth as butter. You probably already have a pad like this if you've ever owned a PS1/PS2. To hook it up to a PC you just need a PS2 to USB converter, which is very cheap and common (~$10-20). Stick: Just like with the pad, the most important thing on a stick is the joystick itself. In the $50-70 price range you can't really get a high-end Sanwa or Seimetsu stick, so you'll need to settle with stock manufacturer parts. Right now, the best low-end joystick is probably on the Hori Fighting Stick V3/VX, which you can get for $60 ($70 for the 360) over at http://stores.horiusa.com/. It'll take a bit of work, but you can also throw in better parts into the case in the future too, if you decide the stock stuff isn't cutting it. http://stores.horiusa.com/-strse-124/Playstation-3-Fighting-Stick/Detail.bok http://stores.horiusa.com/-strse-122/Xbox-360-Fighting-Stick/Detail.bok

Hahaha yeah that's actually what I meant, classic Kliff is so awesome

Man I can't wait for AC+ to hit XBL, I want to be an online Kliff monster so bad

Live stream from mikado currently running here: http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv108722505 Nico account needed to view, archive should be available afterwards

Hey everyone - my apologies for the lack of updates on the guide. I will be writing the rest of it (or at the very least, major updates) before the rerelease of AC online on XBL/PSN in October. I've been gradually shifting over to Millia from Eddie in recent months, so I definitely plan to be more active on this side of the boards as well.

Nope, that was a different image. Anyway, Arcsys has confirmed again a couple of days ago on their site (this time in article format that we're getting AC on PSN/XBL, and it'll be out in October. Until then we're stuck with solid netcode but outdated #R online, or input dropping, sorta-laggy nullDC AC online. +R to come at some point in the future.

It's official, we're getting GGXXAC on XBox Live and PSN. (Image is from Arcsys's japanese website) A lot of us #reloaders are concerned that it won't be up to par with even the PC emulation netplay of AC, but we'll have to wait and see. If nothing else it will bring a lot more players into the game, which is always a good thing.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/guity-gear-xxac-r%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B1%E3%83%86%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88 Oh god was that Long on the loketest stream using the blue Dizzy? That's his colour and he loves throws, just like this guy on stream. He's in Japan, isn't he? If he walks up and hits with a 6H into full aircombo, I'll be convinced Also hi, I've been gone awhile, I'll try to post more

But well, yes, your inputs really will lag by 4 or more frames - there's absolutely no way around that one. The only thing that can be done at this point is to redesign certain troublesome moves like command overheads, dusts, and other shenanigan / reflex-type moves, to make them easier to react to. Maybe also add in extra airdash startup time, because GG airdashes are hilarious in delay 4 environments too. I think we could already seeing it, with May's OHK being changed to a 30 frame startup running throw, and Ky's new 28 frame FB Greed Sever overhead. These are much slower than the standard speeds of 18-24 frames that you would expect for reactable moves, in older GG games.

Okay, I've updated Dream Maker's original change list to add in a bunch of changes as seen in the trailer (in bold), as well as all of the loketest notes (in italics) to distinguish from the other, confirmed changes. Main changes as listed on the character pages + those seen on the video + those reported on loketests: Overall changes: - Health bar is now green when full, and changes and stays at orange when you take any damage. - Combo counter now shows which hit was techable for black beat combos. - Stun/stagger meter added below the joystick waggling icon, shows how much stun is left. - Slashback has longer hitstop (was 2F) which makes it more realistic to SB multi-hit moves (eg. Dark Angel). - Slashback failure penalty changed - instead of being unable to block for 30F, guard guage increases instead. - Doing an IB in the air causes a "Guard Clean" (?) A.B,A: - Goku Moroha mode: damage up, damage penalty from hits landed reduced, longer duration, more powerful overall. - 236D FB fireball in Moroha or Goku Moroha: more hits, travel distance increased. - 5H now gatlings to 2H. - 5H now vacuums in on second hit, has slower startup, cannot be comboed from far 5S. - Moroha mode gauge moved to be above tension gauge. - Now has 4 bloodpacks, up from 3. - Can't do double Keygrab anymore. Anji Mito: - 6HS: FRC changed to be just before the move hits. - FB On (623D): New FB, FRC possible right after the move hits, not possible to combo after (yet). - 2H, 6H new gatling, combos on crouching hit only. - 6H is now special cancellable. - FB Butterfly (236D) travels farther. - K Stomp (214K) causes a smaller ground bounce. - Fuujin (236S/H) has shorter untechable time. - 3S cancel is easier. - Close 5S increases the guard gauge more. - 3K no longer floats opponent. Axl: - P, 2P, 6K, 2S, 2HS, jump 6P, jump S: you now hold the button to get the 2nd hit of each move. - Raieisageki (63214H): FRC removed. - FB Kyokusageki added, 4 (charge) 6 D, has vacuum effect. Combos after 5H, but not after 2D. - 5P-6K is now possible as a gatling. - Axl Bomber no longer hits overhead. - 623P counter on CH causes a different wall bounce. - Rensengeki followup upwards (charge 4, 6S, then up) hitbox modified, can combo from CH trades. - Close 5S looks different. Baiken: - Youshijin: new command is 623P, not possible as guard cancel anymore but only as a normal special move. - Zakuro: Return of the "wheel counter" from GGX / EX mode, command is 214P while guarding. Seems very fast, but not possible to combo afterwards. - Suzuran (run): now possible to do guard cancels during the last part of the animation. Recovery time seems longer. - Tatami (236K): hits twice, knockdown on second hit. Wall bounce on first hit. - Air Tatami (j.236K): Hits twice; if you hit with it below the opponent, 2nd hit whiffs and you can continue to combo. Knocks down in a down-forward direction unless wall is close, then it wallbounces. - j.D FRC has changed. Bridget: - 6K: now possible to cancel on hit into yoyo or any special move. - FB Roger Rush (236D): is now homing towards the enemy, causes wall stick. Chipp Zanuff: - FB Alpha Blade: New FB, command is D at the end of 236P (similar to Alpha Plus), causes wall stick. - FB Beta Blade: New FB, command is 623D, does two uppercuts: first one does 1 hit, second one does 3 hits. - FB Gamma Blade (41236D): new FB, holds opponent longer than normal Gamma Blade. Dizzy: - New FB version of Spear (421D), 3 homing blades. - K fish and followup bites 3 times. - Fish laser (214S) causes wall stick. - Text above tension bar (BIT NG) indicates if it's not possible to summon fish. Eddie: - FB Exhaustion (236D): Possible to recover eddie gauge over the normal limit with this move, command changed to 214D. Adds another full Eddie gauge, ~46 frames total. Only recovers gauge if the shadow gauge is onscreen. Is cancellable. - Executor (first hit) causes extra long knockdown state. - Shadow gauge moved above tension bar. - Shadow gauge seems to remain on screen, even when full, for some time. First level of bar is blue, second level (when charged with FB EXhaustion) is purple. - FB Drill Special (22D) has longer recovery; cannot combo 5P after -D- + 22D unblockable. - Nobiru (Shadow S) no longer hits sliding opponents, possible hitbox change. - Damned Fang (623S command throw): Possible FRC removal or timing change. - Shadow gauge refill is slower, both on unsummon and if shadow is hit. - Unblockables still work as usual. - 6P and Shadow Gallery nerfed (?) Faust: - FB door added, D after 214K. - New thrown items: konbu (eatable, recovers HP) and dumbbell (high stun, causes knockdown). - Coin item can now hit while bouncing on the ground. - 5K CH doesn't knock the enemy away anymore. - Pan item now hits 1 screen away. I-No: - FB Note (214D): New FB, FRC possible right after startup, sends 2 notes (one up, one across). - Can now airdash twice. - Horizontal Chemical Love causes wall bounce. Jam: - Can do the powered up versions of kick specials directly (using D) if you have the power up cards, no need to perform as followups anymore. - FB Charge (22D): Now gives one card of each. - 6H no longer wall sticks, causes knockdown instead. - FB Puffball no longer wall sticks, causes knockdown instead. Possibly slower startup. Johnny: - Coin (214H): New move, coin is thrown upwards with same trajectory as ground throw. Is not an overhead. Causes knockdown on air hit. - j.236236H: New overdrive, looks similar to EX Johnny's. - Divine Transport (623S) trajectory changed. - Diving Blade changed(?). - Mist (214P) is released quicker. - Can double jump after a super jump (?). Justice: - Is intended to be balanced / tourney legal. - Is no longer able to ground dash, triple jump, or triple airdash. - N.B. (missiles): command changed from 421 + button to 22 + button, added P, K and D version, possible to roman cancel each of them. - Detonation of N.B.: command changed from P to whatever button you used to trigger the move. - Strike Back Tail: command changed from 412K to 623K. - Michael Blade (41236H): S version added, now possible airborne. - Gamma ray: FRC added, timing is right after the first hit. - Forcebreak 236D now causes wall bounce instead of wall stick. - Valkyrie Arc (236P, counter stance) doesn't work on lows. Kliff Undersn: - Is intended to be balanced / tourney legal. - Sword vault (214K): FRC now possible just before the move hits. - Dodge (214P): has new FB D followup, instant stun, Kliff has long 'coughing' recovery animation. - 5K: Now launches. - 2H: Now ground bounces, now gatlings to 5H. - 6H can now be charged, does more damage. Special/super cancel removed. - Reflex Roar (236236S): Now causes wall stick instead of wall bounce. Ky Kiske: - New move 3HS: Same as the old 6H pre-AC. - New move, S raging Javelin: New S followup after vapor thrust, causes wall stick. - Lightning (222HS): FRC now possible just after the move hits. - FB Greed Sever (214D): new FB, 28 frame startup, causes ground bounce. - Lightning Sphere 214D followup after charged stun edge: command changed to 4D after CSE. - Charge Drive (236D~214D~46D) now wall sticks. - FB Lightning Orb (236D~D) sucks opponent down more when it hits an aerial opponent. May: - 41236D: New FB version of dolphin summon, appears behind opponent. - Now possible to followup vertical and horizontal dolphin with Restive Rolling (623S and 623H). - Dolphin level for 41236+ button appears above tension gauge. - Overhead Kiss (63214K command grab): Startup: 5F -> ~30F, May now runs forward during startup, looks the same as running animation. - Close 5S, 5H gatling on airborne opponent no longer works. Millia Rage: - New j.2H: return of the old jump H from pre-Slash. Is harder to combo into. - j.236D: FRC point added ~8-9F after input. - FB Secret Garden: New FB, command is 214D, ~76F total recovery. - FB Longinus (214S~D): now causes wall stick instead of sliding. - Harder to combo after throws. - j.K-j.D no longer combos, possibly due to slower j.D. - FB Disc (236D) has longer recovery, disc now disappears if Millia is hit during the move (previously only disappeared if she was hit within first 3F). - j.D causes ground slide if they touch the ground (?), previously caused slide only on CH. - Additional time added before you can retrieve Pin (j.214S/H). Order Sol: - Charge gauge: When using a move the gauge depletes slower. - Dragon Install Sakkai (632146S): Tension cost became 50% instead of 100%. - Lvl 2 Blockhead Buster (236P) now causes wall stick instead of stagger. - Lvl 2 Bandit Revolver (236K) now causes sliding instead of knockdown, has longer startup. - Air Lvl 2 Bandit Revolver (j.236K) untechable time decreased, no longer knocks down after air combos. - Lvl 2 Rock It doesn't cause ground bounce, knocks down now. - Lvl 1 and Lvl 3 specials are still the same. - 2D apparently has shorter range. - Can (still) dodge Slide Head with FD. Potemkin: - Slide Head: FRC added right after the earthquake comes out, possible to combo after. - Slide head causes groundbounce instead of knockdown, enemy enters normal OTG state after, full combos no longer possible unless you FRC. - Hammerfall (Charge 4,6 S(?)): FRC timing is later. - FB Judge Gauntlet (63214D): P followup added, cancels the animation of judge gauntlet. - 6H causes wall bounce. - j.S causes knockdown on air CH, otherwise knocks down. - Megafist (236P, 214P) causes knock down. Robo-Ky: - 623H: Now possible airborne, FRC possible just as the ground version. - 2H missile: Now comes back down towards opponent after a while. - 2S: Hits twice and launches when heat gauge is over 80%. - Currently has a bug that crashes the game if you do 2H missile the moment he overheats. Slayer: - Undertow: FRC added right before hit and causes ground bounce. - Bite: command changed from 63214H to 632146H. - New move, HS Dandy step (214H), Is like S Dandy Step but goes farther (about 2/3 of screen). - New move, FB Dandy step (214D). - 5H causes sliding now instead of stagger, still possible to do 5H into Pile Bunker. - 2H now causes stagger now instead of launch, still combos into BBU. - 2S has faster startup. - 2D has a little more recovery. Sol Badguy: - Fafnir (41236H): return of the old tensionless fafnir, possible to special cancel into. Combos from far S CH, 5H, and 2D. Does not have the old FRC timing. - FB Fafnir (41236D): possible to special cancel into, combos from 2D, causes sliding on Clean Hit. - Tyrant Rave (fafnir followup after H or D fafnir): command changed to 64D from 46D. - FB Sidewinder (j.236D): New move, always has Clean Hit property. Seems to have a really good hitbox. - Bandit Bringer: Clean hit property added. - 214K (airborne) during Dragon Install: new move. Same animation as VV followup kick, has flames, hits overhead, causes groundbounce. Can be looped, has minimum height requirement. Testament: - Hitomi (tree): command changed to 623S, can be done with 236S(?) - Zeinest (web): command changed to 623H, can be done with 236H(?) - Ruft Warrant: New move, command is 22 P or K. Doesn't hit, is only a warp. - New FB phantom soul: command is 236D, tracks opponent. - EXE beast - Can be held to hit after it is summoned. Can summon one while the other is charging. Both have FRCs Can still be done instantly, does 2 hits total. - 6K hitbox appears to be smaller. - Bad Lands range decreased, untechable time is apparently shorter, Bad Lands can no longer be looped. Venom: - 5Sc now gatlings into 6H. - FB stinger aim: no longer freezes balls in place, balls pushed with this move can now bounce several times on the floor and screen borders. - FB carcass raid: same as above. - 6P no longer gatlings into 6H. - 6H has faster startup. Zappa: - j.236H (sword mode): FRC now possible right after landing, now knocks enemy up on hit for followup combos. - Darkness Anthem (236S, Raoh mode): now possible airborne. - Last Edguy (214S, Raoh mode): now possible airborne. - Icons added above tension bar for each summon. - 632146H gives one orb per hit, maximum of 4 orbs. - Smaller chance to summon Dog (?) - When Dog gets hit in neutral state, he sleeps. - Sword 2H stays in place for a bit after the animation. If some of this info is wrong, let me know and I'll revise.

I'm working on it, will post here when done. There's a lot of changes in the video too that weren't picked up as well, those will be in there too.

...and it sounds like they are! To people who have attended the tests: have you noticed any changes in things like dust speeds or overhead moves (Greed Sever, Jam IAD firekick, Eddie 6K, Testament 6P)? Eddie 6K in particular... if that move isn't nerfed, double shadow gauge + unreactable 6K has potential to be very stupid.