ehuangsan

5C > 66 is also extremely hard to deal with, and that's where the vortex resets if Touka used an assist to bring you down with a stupid mixup beforehand. Touka has only a symbolic frame disadvantage because she could go into counter super or air super, and from Touka's point of view, going in from the 66 and gaining high emotion is more important than the possibility of going wrong off the 66 and losing life. Worst is if she normal throws you to allow for assist recovery.

Yeah, that looks like Machabo is just trolling some random scrub. As for Order Sol, I could do that for the context of AC, but the +R matchup is a LOT different and I don't understand it too well. Maybe I'll do the Machabo-Ogawa match next since that one is pretty epic.

Mojirice, he plays Tamaki/Yu and is one of the best players in Hokkaido. Also qualified for EXAMU cup. He plays melty as well, but for now his main game is AP. I play him a lot online because for whatever reason we luck into a fairly stable 3 bar connection most of the time, and he appears to enjoy bodying me at a 20:1 ratio. He showed me the Touka stuff since he also sides Touka, and yeah, it's very BS. Basically it is possible to be vortexed to death off of one knockdown unless you are Tamaki. And it may be because everyone played Chizuru in the beginning at AP, but the general feeling is that Chizuru is more or less solved outside of certain hi/low situations where the other side simply has to guess and certain katame situations, which makes sense to me since it always seemed like she was a rather straightforward character. However, obtaining those situations has now become quite hard, as I have learned from playing hundreds of games against him.

Guess the only way to resolve this is to have a NorCal vs East Coast 5v5 or something at Evo. MMs also work too, but I guess most people will be poor coming into EVO. RagnaHades is almost certainly the best Hakuwolo in the US especially compared to some guy who just picked up the game, since there are a lot of nuances that are not easy to pick up with him. Also FWIW, after consulting with a rather high level JP AP player about the arcadia tiers I have now come to fully accept them as correct.

We don't really have another legit Chizuru, but we do have a fairly legit Sasara who I tell to do this, do that, don't do this, etc when I mess around in casuals with Chizuru. Yes, I also ran Sasara and other characters many times against Pain fairly recently to give him an idea as to what other characters play like. He blew me up until I learned that 5B, 2C, 5C, etc. are not allowed. So basically you are left with 2A, 5A, 2B and situational jumpins to work with, along with the occasional 5B 2C Ma-Ryan cancel. It turns out that that is good enough if you play like you are C/N Iori from CvS2 and enter into massively high variance hitting and footsie wars, though I guess if you don't know what that looks like then you'll have to dig up CvS2 match vids involving Iori. Sasara does not lose by much to either character in damage, and Sasara's 2A and 2B allow her to attack both Chizuru and Tamaki. So basically you are going to call Ma-Ryan, do ground dash shenanigans of 2A or throw while trying to constantly keep emotion high. 2B is safe on block so you can get away with 2A xn, pause for poke whiff, try for 2B, or dash throw, etc. Jumping is not really an option for either character, since Sasara's AAs are strong, especially against Chizuru. Yeah, once you lose the initiative it can be hard to get it back, but again, you can fight back with 5A, 2A and trying for 2B or other shenanigans. Once I started to play like CvS2 Iori, the games looked very ugly, but I was able to compete at about a 4:6 clip against Pain. That being said, I will personally pick up the tab for drinks for anyone that can beat Pain in a FT10 with Riannon, so long as someone records video of such a match.

I actually agree with a lot of their remarks, though the Touka stuff is something I would have to see to fully accept them. Having tried the Sasara/Tamaki and Sasara/Chizuru matchup on both sides quite often (I use to main Sasara), I don't think the matchup is really that bad for Sasara as it looks on paper. Most likely only 4-6. It's true that Tamaki and Chizuru delete a lot of Sasara's buttons which makes the matchup extremely counterintuitive for Sasara, and she is more or less forced to use Ma-Ryan as a partner. But as long as she has 2B and high damage options available she can fight back by playing fast and loose. Think CvS2 Iori style of play. I don't understand why the Touka matchup would be that bad (2-8 implies that the best Sasara player in the world would lose to American Toukas just because of the matchup), but again, I would have to see the Touka stuff to see why. I also mash Arawn a lot and the Arawn stuff is truth. He is horrific and almost instantly losing in low emotion so you have to fight aggressively to avoid it. But it's extremely hard to do so since his guts are also pretty bad. The Ogre mode super mitigates that somewhat, but you have to find a safe point in time to use it, and that's not easy to do. Chizuru also has many glaring weaknesses that are not easy to mitigate, which could explain her fall to A. I can imagine Tamaki and Konomi eventually surpassing her because of new nuanced exploits to those weaknesses (maybe the Konomi/Yuma trend has something to do with this), but the Touka stuff is still something I would have to see because Touka doesn't exploit those weaknesses that well. I would've liked to see an explanation for Multi too.

AP does not really have hard combos. Even Chizuru's fancy neutral tension double BC combos and multiple jump cancel lvl 3 mode combos are pretty easy to do after a few tries, although they are generally impractical. Like sibladeko said, with Chizuru (and with pretty much any character in AP) the rule of thumb is if you can visualize it comboing then it probably combos. Tacking on the super at the end depends on your meter, emotion and your style of play really. If you have extra meter or are in high emotion with <50% life then I would say add the Chizuru combination at the end. Though the BC x 2 corner combo should always end with the fireball super since that does massive amounts of damage.

The thing with Arcadia tier lists is that they are always heavily biased towards new effective tech. It happened before with CvS2 tiers when P-Kyo was suddenly placed on the top of the top tier but below god tier because of all of the new things that they discovered with him and his recent tourney successes. Eventually he fell to the bottom of the top tier. I suspect that is what is happening with Touka and Konomi, as recent tourneys seem to all have Konomi converge to Konomi/Yuma for reasons I don't quite understand, though in the past there were a variety of Konomis with Mizuki, Ma Ryan or Satsuki. I do think the Multi ranking is complete nonsense. Dunno about Oboro; I think that may be bias due to the recent Camyu and Rathy tech that has been going on, but the new tech does make him more effective so it could be that he has improved.

New Aquapazza Tier list from Arcadia: https://twitter.com/Kurushii/status/461916200352903168/photo/1 S Tamaki A Touka, Konomi > Chizuru, Karulau B Sasara, Morgan > Oboro, Arawn C Hakuowlo, Multi > Riannon D Manaka Guess NorCal had it right all along when it was all Tamaki mirrors in the beginning. Good thing that everyone in NorCal has a pocket Tamaki since East Cost has banned Chizuru and all. I've actually long suspected that Chizuru would eventually fall from being the best character, though I do wonder what everyone is doing with Touka.

I guess I could update some of the mizuumi wiki pages if people are interested. Some of the stuff looks fairly out of date, and some of the stuff just needs to be filled in.

Tamaki's 360s have no invul. You can hit her out of it during her startup. I think you can hit her out of 720 during the startup too, but her startup is only 6 frames long so good luck with that. Her Germans have massive invul, but I don't know exact frame data. C German will stuff pretty much everything. Tamaki is the most fun grappler in the history of fighting games. She has heat knuckle, CvS2 run speed, an unblockable laser, Rugal's god press, and SSV enlightenment mode, which makes her a fair character. The only reason that she's only 2nd best is because Chizuru beats some of the lower tier harder than she does. Tamaki is dead even with Chizuru and has no bad matchups and generally has all the fun while the other side suffers and tries to survive even if the other side is Chizuru. You can also ignore your lifebar because if she isn't dead then it doesn't matter. You only need to see her face portrait to recognize when you are allowed to press the win button (lvl 3. SSV enlightenment).

CvS2 Results (16 entrants) 1. Leezy 2. Eh-Sama 3. EMP Cowboy Frieza 4. Danny Aquapazza Teams: Team Ginyu Bandits (W) Captain: EMP Cowboy Frieza Eh-Sama RagnaHades Lark Talon Chun White Devil Team Waifu Victory (L) Captain: Delta Pain Tone Tsubasa Angel of Hope KaneBlueRiver N4US

You don't have to impact guard every hit; just enough of the hits to avoid guardbreak. You can watch for the block stun and attempt during the block stun since you get a 9 frame window per hit. Tapping back rapidly during the block stun will auto impact guard maybe 70% of the hits for you without having to do anything special.

Actually, that super is fairly easy to impact guard offline since you get such a wide window, so long as you just normal block the first few hits. Of course, that is much different from online because of lag.

It feels like a 3-7 to me only because it feels like I have to win off the one or two knockdowns I get per round, otherwise I automatically lose. Yeah, TK HS SE only sorta works, until Justice decides to just block or do the high bomb to negate the SE. If Ky does it and airdashes, and Justice blocks, 2HS catches every possible move Ky can do. She can also always do her FB or super if Ky tries to TK HS SE too; it's free and hands Justice the initiative. Ky's other options are to IB the air bombs and try to double jump through with an air S SE FRC, run up and dash brake/trade 5S with a bomb so the bomb only does one hit, or sometimes, sacred edge if justice gets too predictable to hit the bomb startup. All of those answers are mediocre. Basically you forfeit 40-70% of your life before you get a turn on average. Ky cannot even really effectively anti air justice other than air throw and HS VT, as jump HS is very very buff. So if Justice wants to attack Ky, it is awfully difficult to stop her from doing so, especially since her ground normals are better than Ky's ground normals, even at Ky's effective range. Also, Ky has literally no answer to Michael's sword, other than trying to force it to whiff into FRC HS SE combo. It's a get out of jail free card on defense against Ky, unless Ky backdashes or something during offense. At the start of the round, Justice can open auto Michael's sword or TK backwards Michael's sword, unless Ky opens the round with HS VT, but who does that. I watched a match video with Ain where the commentator said that it is 非常につらい for Ky, so I'm guessing JP thinks it's 3.5-6.5 or 3-7 as well.

I can get a fluctuating two to three bar connection with JP. Sometimes I luck out and get a steady three bar, though most JP players opt to just play one game and leave with that kind of connection.

Online is close to being a completely different game from offline. Even the tiers change quite a bit for the online game. Like Manaka, Riannon, Hak, and Sasara becoming super buff when there are several (5+) frames of lag to worry about, while Tamaki, Touka, and Konomi become almost unplayable. Even Chizuru suffers.

Not so much online. Still alive offline in Norcal. However, a surprising number of very high level JP players still play online every now and then.

So, after playing over a hundred games against good justice players, I'm firmly convinced that the Ky-Justice matchup is 3-7. Unless someone has some tech out there that I do not know of?

It was B DP. Call Utlhury as oki and then B DP tamaki on wakeup, but she reversaled 720 FTW. There's a reason why most people run Riannon with Yuki so as to not auto lose on the select screen. Her only playable assists are Yuki, Rathy, Satsuki and Octavia. Everything else is an almost automatic loss against a lot of characters. You should also try a different assist than Octavia with Oboro. Satsuki, Ulthury, Boss Ma-Ryan, or Camyu would work a lot better and do a lot more damage off of random hits. Also, and it's probably because you only play netplay, it looks like you have almost no sense of danger in a lot of situations where it would be dangerous to hit a button or jump, which is why you got killed by Arawn DP into Ulthury a lot. It's one of those unfortunate things about online; the lag lets you get away with that a lot especially with a character like Riannon and Hakuwolo, as both of them gain quite a lot from the lag. Unfortunately, Oboro doesn't gain that kind of lulz from the lag on defense other than dp randomly hitting where it shouldn't sometimes. I know that because I also cheat with Riannon and have a 88% win percentage online because of lol lag, but can barely scrub one game in three with her in the offline world. Against the good Tamaki players in NorCal, I would be lucky to win a game at all.

More proof that Aquapazza is a treasure trove of lulz: Tamaki's 720 grabs Arawn's DP. What a great game.

That is more player style dependent. Some players will burst very early at the first possible burst point, OTG or katame situation on the belief that they can fence through the rest of the round without it and also play well enough to have the off chance of getting the burst back during the round at around the 40 sec mark or so. Others specifically reserve it for the high damage situations if they still have chances to win the round, or even only for the game losing round. I think either saving or burning it early is okay, so long as you have a gameplan behind doing so.

Didn't realize that most people play private lobbies. Explains why online seems to be dead, and of the few people that I've had matches with, 9/10 try to abuse lag and then rage quit when it doesn't work out. Especially that tortugaviejo guy, who always seems to be on but immediately rage quits at the first sign of trouble when his lag tactics stop working.

Ky vs. Eddie 6-4 in favor of Eddie. If Ky gets caught, Ky loses. If Ky can avoid getting caught while attacking, Ky wins. For those people who play third strike, the matchup is like Dudley or Ken vs. Yun. The little Eddie is basically equivalent to Genei Jin. Neutral Ky must attack, either directly or indirectly. If he doesn't, then Eddie can start his very dangerous offense off the little Eddie so this must not be allowed. However, what makes this so difficult is that Ky must attack while avoiding the knockdown. If he gets knocked down, then Eddie can possibly end the round right there. So Ky has to attack in a rather oblique manner to reduce the risk of knockdown, and constantly harass Eddie. He can do this by staying in lock step with Eddie at about 5S range and attacking with 2S, 5S, j.k, j. HS and TK SE. Basically you use these pokes to approach Eddie and dance around the 2S range. If he jumps, you can counter with 2HS, j. k or 2HS. If he steps within range of the 5S, the 5S, 2S chain is very helpful. TK SE FRC is a good way to seize initiative from Eddie, as it is rather difficult for him to counter that. Staggered strings into stun dipper/SE also work as Eddie might look for the SE to try to IAD. If he does, the stun dipper will catch him. Eddie will try to knock you down with drills and try to create space for himself to launch little Eddie. Once the little Eddie is out, Ky has to basically stay far back and try to kill the little Eddie with air SE or 2S, or trying to make Eddie block something with TK HSE. Avoid getting knocked down as much as possible. Even eating a Noboru combo that permits an air tech is sometimes preferrable to getting knocked down. Yes, it is that bad. Defense If you are here, you have screwed up somewhere. If Eddie tries to go for high/low/command throw mixups, the best you can do is either DAA, burst or try to one frame jump out. However, if he goes for the unblockable projectile/drill setup, there isn't much you can really do about that and he will basically take most of your life away from that setup alone. Some Eddie strings into little eddie are illegitimate. For example, his 5S into summon loses instantly to 5K, however, clever Eddie players may try to go for the drill instead. If you manage to escape and the little Eddie is out, then you have to try to kill it with 2S or jump back air SE. If you get knocked down and sent into the puddle for the unblockable setup, you can actually reversal SVT out automatically. Even if Eddie does a safe jump, blocking the SVT will cause Ky to get sucked into the puddle, whereupon the game confuses itself by registering the block animation on Eddie which makes the puddle vanish, handing Ky the imitative. Offense Because getting knockdown is so bad, Ky must be aggressive but not overly aggressive. Best is to stay just inside 5HS range and go for katame patterns. Eddie's defense is not very good, so going for throw/counterhit setups are very good. 2S/5H stagger patterns are especially good IMO. The analysis on the Faith matchup video in this thread should give you a good idea of what both sides are doing in the matchup. This matchup hasn't really changed, even since the XX days. Another good video to watch is the Machabo-Ogawa SBO finals from a few years back. Machabo has the right idea, but....Ogawa is frighteningly good. Someday I will do an analysis on that match vid.

They are very different. Order Sol is slightly ahead in the matchup (maybe 5.5-4.5) but it's pretty fun for Ky since almost everything can lead into a chain into stun dipper so you can do a lot of interesting things.