WUT

Because Nu is easy mode to pick up and win consistently with relative to skill level, while Arakune and Rachel take a little more understanding to play effectively. That's why I'll wager and say you'll see more Bang and Ragna than Litchi, as Ragna's got easy combos that deal high damage in CS and Bang can perform quite well without having to get too intricate.

Question to anyone that knows: what can 6B and 6C gatling from? And apparently 236C gives you enough stagger time to link a 5C instead of a 5B. I wonder if the extra damage (presumably) is worth the difficulty (also presumably).

From the VAMOS 12/4 finals vid: *214D-> B, 623D, dashing 3C xx 236236B, *214D-> C, 5C 2C 4D->D, j.C (5) jc j.C (2)... He missed the ender, but without it the combo did ~5000 damage. Flash kick and kick super are crazy good. Also, something I realized while typing that out: we should probably assign some sort of notation to denote the delayed version of his specials, as I would imagine some combos will be able to incorporate them and some won't. Hence why I threw in an asterisk at the beginning.

Lol kick super is pretty much a DP. That leads to 4500+ damage on CH. Can anyone ballpark how long you need to wait on the 214D before inputting a followup for it to be the powered up version? Doesn't seem to take very long. EDIT: Wow 2C's got some wicked head attribute invincibility...

By fun you mean unnecessary? 3C, 623B for a free two primer break on pressure isn't needed with everything else he's received in CS. And unless Tao's j.B is no longer a high, 6D is able to autoguard highs now. True reversal go.

Is a CH 214D->B completely untechable?

Using A to cancel his Drive does not consume any of his Ouroboros stock. Should probably be mentioned.

J.c can be mashed for up to 5 hits. So N = number of button presses.

Exactly. Just old CT habits. And my god. Normal air throw into dashing super for 5100 damage. And CH air-to-air j.4B, dj.A, dj.B, dj.623B, v 5B, 623B, dashing super does 4200~. I stand corrected. CS Bang's damage is disgustingly easy and huge. Top tier train GO. Combos into 5D off of 623B are cool. Universal standing 2-seal combo that doesn't use nails.

Couple of interesting things: - 5B, 2B, 2C, 6D, 6239B, d.2B, 6C, (dj.4C), dj.C. Add the dj.4C and you get 2600 damage and no knockdown. If you can do this combo with a 5A starter it'll probably break 2800. Looks to be the basic BnB. - B nail second hit looks like it comes out a little faster. Nice. - New super is fast. And invincible. You can use it in place of guard points in an IB-autoguard scenario. It's safer than using autoguards as well. Of course, much more expensive. - I'm guessing 6C doesn't cancel on block or doesn't actually hit crouchers, because no one is pressuring into it. Seeing alot of 2C, 623B pressure enders for the Primer damage. - 5B's attack level was definitely boosted. It's now semi-safe to end pressure with it and work in a frame trap. - 5B, 2B, 6C, j.D, v 2B, 623B, dashing DD does 4059. That's about as universal as it'll get for punishing. If you add a j.C before 5B the damage is lowered to 3945. Extra proration on j.C isn't cool, man. - 2D, j.D, v 2B, 623B, d.6C, dj.4C, dj.C does 2723. - Dashing DD does 331# damage. Lost 300 damage, which isn't bad at all. - 5C, 2C, 6D, 6239B, d.2B, 6C, dj.4C, dj.C does 2309.

Doubt it's an overhead, but if bang can still jump/special cancel 6c on block then bang is absolutely disgusting. Ex: pressure into 5b/2b, 6c, 2369d (for slightly more height), free mixup (landing low, descending j.b, iad j.c). And it breaks guard primer. Ct bottom tier is looking crazy good.

Well technically it's quick rise and quick recovery, the latter being the invincible tech that some people refer to as a neutral tech. Quick recovery is also the same as an emergency tech in terms of attributes, you just do it as soon as you hit the ground (if possible).

J.C doesn't have any sort of forced tech property. They can still choose not to tech and just lay on the ground. And you don't "get a combo" if they lay there and get hit by the nails, as the combo counter doesn't reset. At most they take a couple hundred points of additional damage (if that) and can air tech instead of having to deal with oki.

That's the problem. "Realistically" that is a big waste of resources, because no one will tech if you do that setup unless they don't know the matchup. It's a huge commitment from you that's pretty much null and void if they don't move. This is the same reason I use B nail instead of D nail if I even bother to do a 2C, 214B setup: because it's not as expensive if they just lay there doing nothing.

Bumpers aren't going to cut it as far as improving Bang's gameplay is concerned. They're too dependent on conditioning and commitment to be effective. You can't react/punish a tech AND apply oki at the same time with bumpers, and that's a big problem. The other problem comes from just how easy it is to evade bumper mixup. Just hold up. Seriously, it's retarded. Whenever I pop a bumper and want to "use" it I just go for an iad/dashing jump command throw. It works much more often then any of the mixup options that bumpers present. Leads to more damage a majority of the time, as well. FRKZ is pretty much tapped out in CT as well. Unless you land a 2D, or a 5D against certain chars, you'll end up doing way too much damage to really have Bang Install make an impact on a round. Against the characters I utilize Bang Install against the most (Cat 1s and Noel/Carl), they generally have around 1/3rd of their health by the time I have enough Heat and seals to FRKZ. There's no real need to use Bang Install at that point, as a combo into dashing DD will more than likely win you the round. CT just makes Bang Install superfluous.

The delay after 2B is minor and doesn't really impact all that much, just gives you more time to get a deeper d.6C. And you can't replace 2B with 6A in the 5A combo. 6A's lack of forward momentum prevents you from getting a deep d.6C.

They do work, apparently. You have to delay the 623b after both the 2b and the first d.6c, j.623b, with the j.623b being reeeeally delayed. Using quadruple fire punch with 6a starter is 3969 damage. 5c starter is 3622 damage. No knockdown on either. You get either a 2b or 623b starter into quadruple fire punch for 3998(2b) or 3982(623b) damage. Ragna and tager only. EDIT: tager only, slightly further than halfway to the corner: 5a, 5b, 2b, 6c, j.d, v 2b, 623b, d.6c, delay j.623b, v 6c, j.623b. 3822 damage. For the lolz: 5a, 5b, 6c, j.d, v immediate 5a, 5b, j.a, j.b, dj.a, dj.b, dj.c, dj.623b. 3302 damage.

Dashing dd has more initial damage but is more susceptible to proration from combos. If new dd isn't ravaged by proration from being part of a combo then it could end up being the best combo ender for fire punch loops. If they want to differentiate each of bang's supers, I think dashing super should function like slayer's dead on time overdrive in gg: fast startup/small invincibility and used to punish things that bang normally couldn't. That would go a long way toward giving bang control and potential momentum.

Litchi's air normals really make bang install a risky option. Approaching her without bang install is difficult/expense as is. The problem is just compounded in frkz. Oh and her crouching hitbox is a bitch, frkz or not.

Umbrella super seems largely unchanged aside from being guaranteed to come out, provided no last minute adjustments to it. Which is fine, as that's all it needed. Now it's actually viable as a projectile punish and for oki. Especially considering roll, special move is no longer possible, umbrella is officially one of the most solid oki situations in the game. New dd can only be a good thing. I don't think it'll be very useful as far as tech traps are concerned, but being a solid aa and a hit throw gives bang more potential damage. Which is something he really needed in the corner. I just wonder if it will remain unprorated mid-combo. If so it will probably replace dashing dd as the ender for longer combos. Dashing dd fades into obscurity.

It's been covered. Hakumen is really limited in his approach and has to commit himself to alot of what he does. Granted, the options that he can commit to are really strong, but in the end he's still lacking in options. Example: Hakumen tries to approach. A ground approach is ineffective due to Hakumen's movement restriction and bang's air mobility. So Hakumen's best option for closing the gap is IAD. Now, Hakumen has to use something to pin you down so he can start pressure. This ends up being some form of either IAD j.B or j.C. 1- IAD j.B is safe from Bang's AA, but if you opt to IB you can punish anything he does before he lands, or punish a 6D/2D that Hakumen will mash out once he notices you punishing IAD j.B. 2- IAD j.C is 5D/2D bait. Only jump, delayed airdash j.C lets Hakumen land in time to guard it, which loses to 5A if it isn't done from far out. If Hakumen does a straight up IAD j.C he has to cancel to his DP (j.214B) to be "safe". Personally I have trouble at this point, as I have a hard time punishing j.214B before Hakumen mashes out a counter. Guess I need to TK command throw more. 3- IAD j.214B/j.D. Hakumen's "answers" to Bang's AA. Both of these are incredibly unsafe should they whiff, but j.214B leads to quite a bit of damage should it hit and j.D gives Hakumen damage and resets the situation for him. You won't see these two options until conditioning has set in (or if they're scrubby). Everything else is pretty much "don't get hit by stupid shit". Don't eat his overhead into 5K damage. Don't get hit by the 3rd 6A he throws in a row after you baited the first two with double jump and air dash. Always break throws (especially IAD throw). Don't get hit by roll, 214B (first hit has 9F startup and a deceptively large range). And don't take obvious baits so that Hakumen can counter you.

623b, d.2b, 623b, dashing super does 5100. Won't work from max 623b range but it's still a solid dp punish. Edit: didn't notice your comment smym. Yes 5a in that combo makes 2b, 623b techable. However, you can opt for a 5a starter and a 2b, 6c, j.b, j.c ender for slightly more damage (3211). I prefer it simply because it's easier to punish with a 5f normal vs an 8f one, unless you're too far away. Either way I'd still probably opt to punish with the (d)j.d combo on cat 1/2's instead for even more damage. Also, starting this triple fire punch combo with 2b and ending with 5b for tech traps deals 3929 damage. On cat1 chars you get 4013 damage with The 2c ender. Either way, this is bang's most damaging meterless punish on cat 2's. Cat 1's take more damage from the 6c, j.d combo with 2b starter. Stupid 2b being 13f. If it was faster bang's damage "problem" would be nonexistent in ct.

It actually works on arakune, tager, hakumen, ragna, and litchi midscreen, and you can add bang to the list when in the corner. It's not worth learning the delays to hit the latter three, however. Just know that you can delay the 6c after a 2b otg pickup slightly, along with delaying the j.b after the 6c. If you delay at both those points you can land j.c, j.623b consistently against tager and hakumen, even midscreen. Also found this out recently: if you land an air-to-air j.a and you're too high up to get a decent relaunch combo you can use j.a, j.a, j.b, dj.a, dj.b, dj.c, j.623b on tager and hakumen, as well as arakune.

While I appreciate the ct information being presented in different threads rather than as one big pile to sift through, I don't think it's necessary to do the same for cs information. Assuming nothing bang receives causes his gameplay to alter drastically, it's pretty safe to keep at least the how to be a hero thread as is. Personally I'd recommend 3 threads: 1- cs changes and info (sticky, closed, and only updated with useful info) 2- cs general discussion (so people can flutter about and we keep info clean and presentable in the other thread) 3- cs combos (sticky. The biggest change that bang is likely to receive comes from new combos. I feel that we can merge bang install and non-bang install combos into one thread.)

I've been trying out various bumper setups and I think I've found an interesting one. Instead of the usual bnb ender of 6d, 6239b, bumper set, use a 2369c, v j.d, 2147b/c bumper set. B bumper will give you either an iad into a 2- or 3-dash crossup low option, or an iad j.4c high crossup. C bumper gives you the j.c crossup/feint, and the 3-dash low option. Or you can do what I do whenever I try to use bumpers for oki: iad (b bumper)/ 6-dash (c bumper) into command throw. Costs 2 nails but it gives you a stronger bumper position and more time for oki compared to 6d, bumper set or the 6d, fire punch, bumper set.