[CT] Jin vs Tager

[ryokoalways]

I don't actually think tager has a legitimate counter to 5d > a dp on reaction. The only time he is dangerous is when he has spark bolt.

[Darcius]

I don't actually think tager has a legitimate counter to 5d > a dp on reaction. The only time he is dangerous is when he has spark bolt.

Haha, that was another close call. These forums really keep me on my toes.

[ryokoalways]

Unfortunately I wasn't trying to be funny. Am i mistaken? mid-max range this worked out ok for me the few times I get to play against tager.

[Darcius]

Tager has many extremely damaging setups outside of spark bolt. I'm surprised you haven't found this out the hard way yet.

[ryokoalways]

I was mainly commenting on the zoning part of the fight. Also please note I have not really played any good tager. Most tager's I faced I could easy escape with a few good IB. Their setup are also fairly standard. My experience revolves more around nu, rachel, and noel. My apologies if I was giving out bad advice.

[pacoveli]

And IAD j.b a fuckload, that never hurts as long as you take initiative and don't wait around.

Now that I've been playing, this is what I do. That, and a lot of IAD j.C > j.D, then a late 214A into ground pressure, or a triple fireball to get away. I usually end up pushing Tager into a corner, then working on him there.

[phytoporg]

Now that I've been playing, this is what I do. That, and a lot of IAD j.C > j.D, then a late 214A into ground pressure, or a triple fireball to get away. I usually end up pushing Tager into a corner, then working on him there.

This worked for me for a little while, but if you get predictable Tager will start backdashing and punishing your ass. A running jump-in will force Tager to guess whether or not you're going to follow up with an airdash (to catch his backdash with j.B or whatever). If he guesses right it can suck though, so be sure to switch it up

[Darcius]

I start out every tager round with 5c. I hope nobody who is going to play me in the future reads this.

[Killey]

I've posted a bit on the match up earlier but I've been playing some very competent Tager's lately and have more to add to this match up. I highly recommend reading up on advance Tager strategies as you want to know what typical Tager play is and what other Tager plays look for when playing against Jin. So far the only advice going on in the Tager vs Jin thread is how to punish Ice Car but we all know that as good Jin players we only do Ice Cars as part of combos or sparingly use A Ice Car to get in close and usually during a block string. Know what Tager's setups are for his 360 and 720 and then obviously try not to fall for them. However, the 360/720 can be avoided by back dashing or jumping so you can use this to bait out 360/720 attempts and then punish afterwards. So here is a generic list of good Tager strats: -Tager's back dash has good invincibility frames to it and is used often to dodge attacks, like IAD's and can be followed up with a counter throw. Keep in mind trying to follow up with an attack after whiffing an IAD will lead into a Counter Throw against you. Best to back off after the whiff and prepare to tech regular throws or jump/back dash if you suspect a 360. -When Magnetized do not tech when in the air as Atomic Collider will always suck you in. It is possible to smack Tager before Atomic Collider connects but don't count on it as a reliable counter. Depending on the distance and how fast you recover you will most likely eat the Collider instead. A whiffed Atomic Collider can be buffered into a 720. Good Tagers will use Atomic Collider to suck you in should you decide not to tech. Then when you neutral tech near them you eat the 720. In these scenarios don't tech at all or backward/forward tech roll but this is much easier said then done. -Tager's Sledge destroys all projectiles so don't bother using 236A/B/C/D too much if at all. They open you up to a CH and punish afterwards. Also, be aware that Jin's 5D, 2D do count as projectiles so do not throw these out carelessly as Sledge will go through them. They can be used in the match up for certain scenarios. For example, you can Fubuki Tager's sledge by properly baiting with 5D. Also, 5D will CH Tager's flying elbow drop. -Tager's 2D sets him up for a variety of favorable positions for him. Tager can follow up his 2D with a 360/720 so do not attack after blocking 2D or if 2D whiffs. You will eat a Counter Throw if you do. -Learn how to tech against Tager depending on where you are on the screen. Sledge/2D will hit you if you decide to tech roll backwards if Tager is close to your downed Jin. This also leads into 720 setups for Tager as well. Slow Sledge, followed by a quick Sledge then 720. Neutral teching in this scenario means you eat the 720. You want to rush down Tager as much as possible and try to mix things up when on the offensive. Giving Tager breathing room allows him to find ways to approach you to try and magnetize you to set up for bigger damage. Tager has huge hit boxes so he is more susceptible to cross up j.B or j.D giving you an easier time when rushing him down. You can also set up instant j.B overheads as well though I'm not exactly sure how this works but I've seen it in multiple match vids. To my understanding early j.B's still whiff on Tager but I could be wrong and it could be that his hit boxes are so big that even in a crouching state an early j.B is an instant overhead. Double jumping followed by a falling j.B helps bait out those godly back dashes and when timed right can land a CH into a BnB. j.B in general is your friend in this match up and as I mentioned before Tager doesn't have a lot of options against it with no reliable anti-air but being predictable with it's use can lead into an air-throw counter. Getting hit by Spark Bolt when Tager has 50%+ heat is very bad as he can bait out your burst attempts with Magnetic Revolver. If you are low on health and get hit by Spark Bolt and Tager has 50% heat just burst immediately don't wait to get close to Tager to use the Burst. If you don't Burst he'll do a regular combo to finish you off or combo into Magnetic Revolver to prevent you from bursting. If you Burst Late he'll buffer into Magentic Revolver which will continue through the Burst. As I said in my previous posts if you manage to block Magentic Revolver on the ground Tager can rapid cancel it and attempt a 360 on you. It comes out super fast so the timing on the jump or back dash to dodge it is very tight. If you do get caught by it you hope to god that the opponent screwed up the timing and it comes out as a purple throw which can be teched out. Depending on their timing of the 360 it's not techable and you'll eat the 360 regardless. It's safer to block this in the air but again small window to punish so avoid blocking this super when Tager has 50% heat to rapid cancel it. You don't want to be in the corner with Tager at all as he will magnetize you with a block string and this is where it gets annoying as everything will draw you closer allowing him to continuously put pressure until he is in prime distance for a 720. Keep a cool head and continue to block his pressure and keep a look out for the 360/720's and jump away and if you have heat throw a aerial 236D for a CH into a combo. In the corner you cannot back dash to avoid the 360/720 so you must jump to avoid them. TL; DR: Rush Tager down with liberal uses of j.B and mix it up with double jumps to bait out back dash happy Tagers. Frame trap when possible and maximize the damage from your combos. Know how Tager sets up his 360/720's and bait them out for a punish. When on the defensive keep a cool head and continue to dodge those 360/720's until you can get the momentum back.

[Skye]

Play defense too long = Negative Penalty When the Magnet's on you, random aerial Frostbites are good if you jump and dash. Do it sparingly, or get predictable. That and grabs take neat advantage of his slow startups, time it right, it becomes a throw counter. I wonder if Gale will win in an invincibility frame fight with Tager.

[Dream Maker]

Instant air jB does work against Tager crouching so that opens the door to crazy mixup games against him (and you can go for the classical jB > jC > jD > land > etc... combo after it). Thanks Killey for posting these tips against Tager. I'm quite a noob at this game especially matchup-wise and Japanese players do not forgive errors.

[Darcius]

Play this matchup as if you are Robo Ky with Lover's super on you. The stupidest mistake is NOT rushing in.

[Killey]

623C and 623D beat out Tager's 720 but only if you time it a little before the super flash animation for the 720. I've experimented with this and this is extremely good for baiting those 720's but don't get predictable with it. Tager's hit boxes are weird. Besides being huge they make some of Jin's combo's do funny things. In the corner if you follow up a 6C with a DC 5C it will put Jin on the other side of Tager, which is extremely odd and screws up some corner combos and corner games. Also, it seems that 623D (2 hits), 6C, 214D won't work on Tager but it works on other characters no problem. Tager is able to tech out before 214D connects. Not sure why though. I can't get the instant overhead j.B to work at all anyone who has any insight on this care to share how this works. I tried block strings of 5B, 5C, j.B but no go. Tried experimenting with distance and instant j.B and still no instant overhead. I've seen this in videos so no idea how this works and I thought this would be simple. If you want to deal 6000+dmg on Tager in the corner off a 623D you can follow up with 6C, 623D, 5C, Ice Wave Super. I think it only deals that amount of damage to Tager because of his hit boxes so he eats more hits from the Ice Wave Super or something.

[Skye]

Air Dash to j5D behind him when the magnet's on you. It's a wild card after the first time.

[Killey]

That and grabs take neat advantage of his slow startups, time it right, it becomes a throw counter.

Thanks for this bit of advice. Used it today in a local tourney and it got me out of his pressure strings with ease. Will definitely come in handy in the future.

[Skye]

Always a pleasure.

[BANGER]

Excellent info. Really appreciated, Killey. Hard to get any info cause there's barely any Tager's to practice with, and when they do come out, they're either really shitty or damn good. I've a short question though: so IAD j.B is my friend... it worked for awhile on some weaker Tagers but the good ones always 360/720 me the moment I land. This is usually after a IAD j.B j.C. This seems unsafe on block (to grab), and I don't do a IAD j.B j.C on block anymore, but sometimes a normal blocked IAD j.B eats 360's on landing. I know I'm doing something wrong. What I have in mind is IAD j.B j.C then 5B 5C j.B etc. bnb if j.B connects, but on block of IAD j.B j.C, either bait/punish a backdash or punish 360 with a 214D or if no heat, just use 214A 214B or 214C to back up and try again. tl;dr how do I avoid/get safe from a 360/720 after doing a blocked IAD j.B? I read the whole thread. It seems the one-all solution to avoid 360/720s is to back dash or jump out. I've tried these, but if so, I guess I'm shitty at it. And damn it, I'm not one to be technical (I just plug and play) and I just read here that Atomic Collider isn't an anti air. I got into a phase of not using j.B ever, afraid of being punished by an Atomic Collider but I guess there's nothing to fear. Man I ate a lot of losses from losing faith in j.B

[Skye]

Aim low on Tagers to mix it up, 3C or 2B does fine. Your biggest fear here is/should be Tager Guarding your approach and punishing, which equates to 50% HP gone, which a super throw would do the trick from there. So don't always go in the air, aim low too.

[Killey]

IAD j.B, j.C is not safe at all since Tager can back dash and then 360/720 for punish. If he does block it nothing you can really to escape the punish. You can bait that back dash if you time late the j.B late and catch him in his recovery frames. Anyways, I've got a ton of new information on the Tager match up after playing some incredibly good Tager's the past few nights. Your zoning game is not garbage after all and is actually quite handy when used correctly and I stress correctly in this scenario. 5C, 5D and 2D do work against Tager but you have to do them at maximum distance in case Tager Sledges through them so don't get predictable with them otherwise he can anticipate and Sledge into a CH combo. A lot of Tager pokes/zoning game have a lot of start up frames to them so this is the best time to capitalize on 5D and 2D to CH him into a combo. Tager's hit boxes are incredibly odd and causes some weird situations. For example, a combo into 6C, DC, 5C will 90% of the time put Jin on the other side of Tager so doing combos to keep Tager in the corner requires creativity and for the most part you'll have to sacrifice damage to keep your corner game. Also, any air combo that ends in Ice Car will usually put Jin on the other side of Tager so be extremely careful of how you want to end the combo as you may put yourself in the corner due to this and that's the last thing you want. Better to do j.D or A Ice Car and attempt a reset on the ground then placing yourself in the corner. You can throw Tager out of his block strings but the timing is really rough even on IB as Tager can alternate his block strings and sneak in a throw or 360 of his own in there to catch you off guard. Alternatively, you can IB his 5D and C/D Fubuki if he tries to Sledge or some other long start up normal in the next part of the string. Again, this can be baited but the good thing is that if he tries to sneak in a throw he'll eat the Fubuki instead so he has to block and punish instead. If you have 50% heat then rapid cancel and reapply pressure. Purely rushing Tager down does not work all the time as good Tagers know how to time those back dashes into 360's. Baiting them with double jump falling j.B's will work to a certain degree but you want to vary the timing of that j.B to catch them from back dashing later. If you do miss the j.B then back dash immediately to avoid getting punished. Basically, you need to space the falling j.B at maximum distance so that you can back dash out. Your cross up game doubles against Tager due to his hit boxes so take advantage of that and mix him up constantly with IAD j.D, j.B, or the reverse cross up of 236D. Be careful of your jump patterns as any character can just air throw you out. Be extremely careful when Tager has 50% heat. Obviously, he's looking to set you up for a 720 but his Magnetic Revolver super is extremely good for punishing rush happy Jins as well as good burst punish. Instant Air Dashing when Tager is waking up can be punished with Magentic Revolver. Ice Car Rapid Cancel tricks DO NOT WORK on Tager when he has heat. You try the RC 2B and you eat Magentic Revolver or 720. You RC into an air dash j.B, j.C you'll eat Magentic Revolver but if they attempt a 720 you will CH them. If you must RC an Ice Car for safety the best option is to air back dash and hope you can escape the Magnetic Revolver. Magnetic Revolver on air block has some odd cross up capabilities so if you do bait it out be on the lookout of how you are blocking and switch appropriately. One thing you can do is C Ice Car yourself to safety unless you are near the corner then try to block it and punish after wards. C Fubuki will go through Spark Bolt so if you suspect he's going to throw this from full screen and you want to avoid getting magnetized on block throw C Fubuki out to dodge it altogether. C Fubuki beats out 2D clean. Also, you can 5D it from a good distance away or 5C it if you space yourself right it will lead into a CH 6C combo if you do. When magnetized lessen your zoning and up your rush down. Zoning is less efficient as the magnetism screws up your safety distance so it becomes risky throwing 5D and 2D out. Although sticking close to Tager is what the Tager player wants, the magnetism causes odd properties with your spacing and can be taken advantage to nail CH's into big damaging combos. In particular your air game cross up increases so if you throw out j236D as he is pulling you in with magentism you can cause odd cross up games with him. Any aerial move tager does will be promptly beaten by any of Jin's DP's but A or B need to be position slightly in front of him for it to work. If they are directly on top of you then C and D Fubuki will nail you a CH. To me the typical Jin plan seems to work for Tager as well which is zone him for the beginning of the match then slowly make your way in when you are landing those CH j.B's or 5D, 2D's. This doesn't seem like an easy match up for Jin if he gains momentum the problem is that Tager can instantly take it back at any point in the match.

[H-F Blade]

I played against MikeZ's Tager a bunch last night and I think I did pretty well for the most part but he still got me pretty good. I was having some problems, like running j.B j.C blockstrings or jump cancelling into whiffed j.A would sometimes cause me to get hit by his 2C. If I traded with his 2C, it was a free combo for him. What should be done about this? I'm so accustomed to running fuzzy guard blockstrings against Tager since it works so well but I thought Tager had no reliable anti-air without meter. You were right about how ending air combos with ice car in the corner would cause a cross up and put YOU in the corner. I found myself in a lot of trouble when that happened because when he neutral techs it almost feels like HE is at an advantage at that point. NOT fun. If they're backdashing a lot (and they probably will be) learning double jump into falling j.B is CRUCIAL. After blocked air hits in the corner, you can also use j.236D to catch him out of his backdash and it's a free combo, otherwise you keep him pinned. I dunno if it's just me, but the way I was playing, it kinda feels like you'll have almost 100 Heat to spend at some point during this matchup. Meter feels like it racks up very quick against Tager. One trick he showed me is that if you do something like 5B or 5C and it clashes with the first hit of Magnetic Revolver, you can IMMEDIATELY cancel the clash into C Fubuki and it will always win.

[Killey]

If you are j.A whiffing and he's countering with 2C then I would try throwing in a j.B immediately after j.A to either keep him pinned or CH his 2C. Yeah, I absolutely hate ending an air combo near the corner with Ice Car as it puts you in the corner and Tager can just neutral tech and already be in the advantage. He'll have good corner pressure and is basically setting you up for a 720. You basically have to play on point in your defense in the corner and avoid those 720 setups then escape. I tend to like to do a lot of cross ups on Tager so I tend to spend my heat on reverse cross up j236D which has been catching a ton of people off guard. However, Heat does build up pretty fast if you manage to land a combo or 2 on Tager on top of the block strings. I absolutely love j236D with that sexy +22f advantage. So good at locking people down in the corner.

[Skye]

Tager is the only character who I know random Ice Cars won't work on.

[BANGER]

Tager is the only character who I know random Ice Cars won't work on.

Ye, the Tagers I've played seem to be very defensive (and thus always on block) and capitalize offense from magnetism (which doesn't require them moving forward much) or punishes into 360/720. Also, as I read and noticed here too, they use backdash invincibility a lot. It was really helpful knowing that from this thread. I've since integrated double jumping from falling j.Bs ever since.

[o m3gatron o]

i find that the j b.c.d. works good w/ tagers .. if they block u can follow up 236 b .. just dont over use it cuz a sledge will punish it .. but i find that it works for me .. and i dont play scrub tagers

[Skye]

Sledge is all hype and intimidation. I figured out exactly how to get past it, and felt so stupid that I didn't before. Any non-projectile hit > Sledge. Seriously anything can work, 5A, 3C (recommended), even fucking Ice Cars beat Sledge. My issue was (won't mince words) I was scared to get close to Tager, because who feels comfortable being that close to that infuriatingly lovable robot beast? So when my friend start sledging through all my shit, I panic. When I was playing Arakune, I use 2C to get by it and to set up for curse, then it hit me. So now I easily punish Sledge when recklessly used. I found that Jin's best remedy is to punish Sledge whenever possible, which is basically free combos, and try to sneak in an anti air (with Invincibility frames) when he tries to rebut your advances. The fight is still mad hard, but now I'm starting to loosen up and win some matches other than getting 5 rolled. (I do best 5/9 with friends)