ocdscale Posted September 5, 2009 Posted September 5, 2009 So there is no other way then just anticipating a divider and punish? Even though merely a beginner I used to use 5B to get them to either neutral roll(tech?) and block or roll away from me, which puts me in a good position of controlling the match. But with Ragna (and a few others i suppose) getting a knock down does not help me much, either he uses infernal divider, which they often cancel and from there continue attacking OR he rolls in any direction he wants because he knows I'm usually to afraid to use 5B. Having the advantage after a knockdown helped me a great deal in matches, without it I have a lot harder time pressuring. You can still control this part of the match after knockdown, but it's not without a gamble. You have to make sure you punish Ragna hard for every blocked ID. That shifts Ragna's risk reward towards more backrolls/neutral techs.
ichabod Posted September 6, 2009 Posted September 6, 2009 You can still control this part of the match after knockdown, but it's not without a gamble. You have to make sure you punish Ragna hard for every blocked ID. That shifts Ragna's risk reward towards more backrolls/neutral techs. I see what you mean, but it feels like the gamble goes both ways. An absurd thing happend two nights in a row when I faced a Ragna who actually did most of his damage from wakeup positions. What I mean by that is that I had no real trouble pressuring him and landing a combo OR defending his attacks BUT whenever I got a knockdown on him it would lead to a guessing-game he would win most of the time, which also resulted in bigger combos then mine and thus ultimately winning the round/match. Either Ragna would do infernal divider or he would roll behind me and do hell's fang at wakeup. This meant that even when I tried to wait/bait out infernal divider I risked getting a hell's fang unless I was fast enough to block on the other side of me. The problem I have been having is getting passive and reacting after a knockdown instead of being proactive and keeping the pressure up. Are the best options at Ragnas wakeup to either do 5B/5A (and hope he doesnt do ID) or block?
Siefer Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 I see what you mean, but it feels like the gamble goes both ways. An absurd thing happend two nights in a row when I faced a Ragna who actually did most of his damage from wakeup positions. What I mean by that is that I had no real trouble pressuring him and landing a combo OR defending his attacks BUT whenever I got a knockdown on him it would lead to a guessing-game he would win most of the time, which also resulted in bigger combos then mine and thus ultimately winning the round/match. Either Ragna would do infernal divider or he would roll behind me and do hell's fang at wakeup. This meant that even when I tried to wait/bait out infernal divider I risked getting a hell's fang unless I was fast enough to block on the other side of me. The problem I have been having is getting passive and reacting after a knockdown instead of being proactive and keeping the pressure up. Are the best options at Ragnas wakeup to either do 5B/5A (and hope he doesnt do ID) or block? He must have been hitting you a lot of times, because Ragna can not dish out a lot of damage when starting his combos with ID unless he RCs it. If you're knocking Ragna down that much, you will kill him before he kills you, so I'm not sure what's going on here. If all he's doing is wake-up HF or ID, simply waiting and baiting them out will make him change his strategy really fast...
A.X.I.S. Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 He must have been hitting you a lot of times, because Ragna can not dish out a lot of damage when starting his combos with ID unless he RCs it. If you're knocking Ragna down that much, you will kill him before he kills you, so I'm not sure what's going on here. If all he's doing is wake-up HF or ID, simply waiting and baiting them out will make him change his strategy really fast... if he's roll teching then 2B and 5B beats it right? i mean if he's gonna roll tech ID wouldnt the smart move would be J.B or J.D?
Siefer Posted September 20, 2009 Posted September 20, 2009 if he's roll teching then 2B and 5B beats it right? i mean if he's gonna roll tech ID wouldnt the smart move would be J.B or J.D? If all this guy is doing is wake-up ID/HF, then the smart thing to do would be to simply wait for it and punish accordingly. The damage/reset potential is higher than the other options. Now, if he were to start changing his wake-up tactics, than things change.
Killey Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 In general I find dash in 2A to be the best non-corner oki option. If an opponent just sits there you'll tag them with 2A and you can relaunch them. If they neutral tech and depending on how you timed the dash 2A you will cross them over where you can do 5B and catch them off guard. If they tech roll backwards you will most likely whiff if you dash in with 2A but if you just did 2A they will get hit depending on the timing. If they tech roll forwards you will hit them with 2A again depends on timing. The best part is that 2A has good recovery time so if you do whiff 2A you can option select block right away so it can be used to bait out counter moves like DP's.
Mobri Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 Ragna is a big challenge to me as a player because of his insanely long invincibility frames on a very large, fast special move that hits both ground and air effectively. It makes a rushdown very hard to execute (Jin isn't the most natural rushdown choice, which only makes it harder) but allowing Ragna to retreat and approach repeatedly is a sure way to die. I find that DP+C is unreliable as a means to combat approaches and wakeups, though it is essential that you use it. It's best to try it in a number of different instances and find which ways are found to be successful. It's very punishable, and even if it clashes with Ragna's DP you're not guaranteed the next blow. If you find that the Ragna player you're facing is particularly aggressive it becomes a more necessary tool because they're easier to bait. 5D is a fantastic tool because it has a large hit box, it's dash cancellable, and it has a lot of active frames (as someone else has already mentioned). It startup is slow, of course, so if you find yourself in a lot of close range fighting rely more heavily on DP+C. I don't find myself relying much on Jin's Distortion Drives for Ragna and use the drive version of his specials instead to create openings. Any one of his DP moves are amazing as well. Use A when standing drive is too slow, same with the b version (although DP+B is a great way to bait an attack). J+B really is a savior, like everybody has said. Air dashing low to the ground and tapping B adds a lot to Jin's mixup and zoning games. Just don't use it when Ragna is getting up from a knockdown or you'll get a face full of Infernal Divider. And tap 5A/2A lots. LOTS. And don't be afraid to RC out of a special to continue a block string or end it with 5D and cancel into a dash.
BANGER Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 And tap 5A/2A lots. LOTS. Be careful with this though. Vary your timings and don't mash 5A/2A because he'll get the timing down, IB, and ID you.
Mobri Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 No mashing?! Why do I even play this game?! Seriously, though, frame trapping Ragna is a good idea if you can approach it safely. Most Ragnas I've encountered have a trigger finger on that DP of theirs and pausing lets them occassionally sneak something in. I forgot to mention using 236C after knockdown. I know it's on the strategy disk but it forces Ragna to either block and let you approach, hits him, or eats his ID so you don't have to. Not 100% on the last one, actually...
BANGER Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 Seriously, though, frame trapping Ragna is a good idea if you can approach it safely. Most Ragnas I've encountered have a trigger finger on that DP of theirs and pausing lets them occassionally sneak something in. That's true, but I think with 5A/2A mashing, it's harder to bait out ID. Well, that's what I try to do anyway. Mashing to infinity will make him IB ID, and varying will make him try to ID in between the delays. Though, in those delays, you can bait and just block and punish ID instead, or try pushing another string of 5A/2A on the bet that he doesn't ID. I guess it depends on the ID timing of the Ragna you're playing. How I play, I try to bait ID through jump cancel barrier 5B or 5C.
smooshman Posted December 4, 2009 Posted December 4, 2009 all these numbers throw me off because they make me feel like the skill is gone... but that's me. this is a fun match up for me. but the only advice I have is this 1. barrier block hell fang if they hit with the follow up (like habit dictates) they still fit for the area of 2D so punish him and air combo is fast enough. 2. inferno DIVIDAH back dash wait for them to land and grab. this will probably not work on more experienced players but hey whatever 3. if your feeling edgy instead of barrier blocking hell's fang 623C get counter hit and air combo
BANGER Posted December 4, 2009 Posted December 4, 2009 all these numbers throw me off because they make me feel like the skill is gone... but that's me. this is a fun match up for me. but the only advice I have is this 1. barrier block hell fang if they hit with the follow up (like habit dictates) they still fit for the area of 2D so punish him and air combo is fast enough. 2. inferno DIVIDAH back dash wait for them to land and grab. this will probably not work on more experienced players but hey whatever 3. if your feeling edgy instead of barrier blocking hell's fang 623C get counter hit and air combo No decent Ragna would follow up on a blocked Hell's Fang. And if he does, he'll probably RC it and bait your attempt at counter. Back dashing against ID doesn't work; it's still active after Jin's backdash animation and has enough reach to hit you afterwards. 623C is extremely unsafe and should only be used on overly offensive people on wakeup or during IBs in block strings.
CrimsonMoonKing Posted February 27, 2010 Posted February 27, 2010 I've found myself getting crossovers by Ragna's J. B a lot, is annoying, good ragnas vary the way they dash in, and its rather weird that they approach with dash in air and J. C, you can freeze them easily, or Shoruyken them, but that J. B is CRAZY, not only can crossover, the animation of this hit is toooo long, and is combo time for him when it hits, another thing is good footsies, his 5B and his 5C has tremendous range!!, some other things that I had found annoying and that I don't really realize much what to do, after a simple combo he 5D and dash cancel it for more pressure, wow this is really annoying, and adding that fast 5A in the corners after a inferno divider, geez. is crazyness, I play the matchup in RushDown mode, bc zoning doest work much, you can Distortion drive his dash ins, or Shoryuken them, or maybe 5D them, but in this matchup I think the rush down is vital... For me is a difficult matchup, good ragnas are really annoying, their rushdown is incredible.
A.X.I.S. Posted March 20, 2010 Posted March 20, 2010 I've found myself getting crossovers by Ragna's J. B a lot, is annoying, good ragnas vary the way they dash in, and its rather weird that they approach with dash in air and J. C, you can freeze them easily, or Shoruyken them, but that J. B is CRAZY, not only can crossover, the animation of this hit is toooo long, and is combo time for him when it hits, another thing is good footsies, his 5B and his 5C has tremendous range!!, some other things that I had found annoying and that I don't really realize much what to do, after a simple combo he 5D and dash cancel it for more pressure, wow this is really annoying, and adding that fast 5A in the corners after a inferno divider, geez. is crazyness, I play the matchup in RushDown mode, bc zoning doest work much, you can Distortion drive his dash ins, or Shoryuken them, or maybe 5D them, but in this matchup I think the rush down is vital... For me is a difficult matchup, good ragnas are really annoying, their rushdown is incredible. 1. your letting ragna jump in on you for free? why? you got 5-6 air unblockable pokes, A or B dp beats IAD and C dp is nice for cross-up attempts. 2. if ragna is dash canceling his 5D then your poke beats his, and you can do whatever DP you want, hell you can bait it...point is no good ragna will do it. 3. ragna's 5A isn't that good just remember his 5B stuff's your shit and don't 5D much a smart ragna will hit you with 5C and poof you lost 3-5k health.
lxMetalSonicxl Posted March 20, 2010 Posted March 20, 2010 1. your letting ragna jump in on you for free? why? you got 5-6 air unblockable pokes, A or B dp beats IAD and C dp is nice for cross-up attempts. 2. if ragna is dash canceling his 5D then your poke beats his, and you can do whatever DP you want, hell you can bait it...point is no good ragna will do it. 3. ragna's 5A isn't that good just remember his 5B stuff's your shit and don't 5D much a smart ragna will hit you with 5C and poof you lost 3-5k health. 1. 6C and 2C aren't good anti-airs. 623B is punishable on instant block and a psychic one can lead you wide open. 623C and 623D aren't exactly best used as anti-airs. So 623A and j.A at close range might be your safest options. If you use C dp while getting crossed up by j.B, they will probably land in time to block. Depending on their location in the air, you can backdash to avoid this move and follow up. 2. Just IB 5D and wait a bit to see if they do something else. If they don't, free combo. If they do, it has to be a punishable dash cancel or a special move so IB high since his moves are easily figured out. Watch out for RC. Also, don't DP. You won't rewarded that much and having the Ragna burn heat is a much better option. 3. His 5A does suck, but if you're crouching, he may try to whiff throw. 2A that shit if you see it. If your reaction is poor...2A. 5B is too good, but just respect it and find holes in his soon to come pressure.
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