[Xrd] Sol Badguy Okizeme/Mixups/Gimmicks Thread (Updated 02/14/2015)

[VR-Raiden]

Hmm I didn't try reversal VV or something right on landing but I had the dummy holding up to jump after their burst and WT still worked, so from that I assumed it was guaranteed.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

There may be a forced landing recovery or something. I could be wrong, though.

[D.R.F.]

Blue Bursts have 3 frames of landing recovery, you probably grabbed the dummy there

[Kikuichimonji]

I think that you get the non OTG damage on Wild Throw based on what I tested. That would be silly as shit otherwise, because the WT would be an OTG and maybe wouldn't knock down.

[Kikuichimonji]

Hmm I didn't try reversal VV or something right on landing but I had the dummy holding up to jump after their burst and WT still worked, so from that I assumed it was guaranteed.

There may be a forced landing recovery or something. I could be wrong, though.

I did some testing with Leo uppercut versus Damned Fang recently. Just because the Damned Fang was unjumpable didn't mean that I couldn't Eisen Sturm it. But I think it's possible to punish with a perfectly timed command grab, but only on IB on the burst usually. You can still get the unjumpable WT without the IB, but they can reversal it. Either way, it's like 98% guaranteed as a punish, so I'd go for it every time.

[D.R.F.]

Don't forget that when VR went for that with the dummy jumping, it had about 3-4 frames (idk the character) before it got off the ground, which is about a 6-7 frame window once they touchdown to grab their ass. Assuming you read it correctly, if they to try jump out after the burst it should be pretty free

[VR-Raiden]

Pretty sure jump startup is unthrowable though. So the window to have it connect is just their landing recovery after the Burst. And yeah the punish is much more realistic if you IB or jump IB the Burst.

Random oki thing I have seen work many times in videos and play testing:

So if you aren't going for jump-in oki from a far away knockdown, something I see a lot that works is dashing to about max 2D range or so then dash stopping as they are knocked down. People love to backdash or jump in that situation because I think it gives the illusion that it would be pretty safe to do so. You follow that up with a quick dashing 5K/f.S/Fafnir or whatever else to catch them trying to take the opportunity to escape. I think the significance of his dash stop animation, along with the spacing and situation in general gets reactions like that out of people.

[Final Ultima]

I think that you get the non OTG damage on Wild Throw based on what I tested. That would be silly as shit otherwise, because the WT would be an OTG and maybe wouldn't knock down.

 

Correct. Once the opponent touches the floor, they are no longer in OTG state.

Also, interesting tidbit: Unlike Air Throw, P.B.B. cannot connect on an opponent in OTG state.

[Laziefreddy]

I have a noob question.  For the corner gun flame YRC okizeme, what do you confirm into if the opponent gets hit by the GF?  Right now I'm using j.K > J.D > kudakero, but there's only time to confirm if I go for the empty jump option.  I could not get any confirms if I go for a late air dash.

[VR-Raiden]

Yeah if you already planned to empty jump 2K you can convert pretty well if they just took the meaty GF hit. But on mininum height air dash j.S whiff, you can attempt an air throw reset or just stay grounded and pressure after they tech. I think only Potemkin gets hit by the air dash j.S > j.D at minimum height after GF hits.

Something you can do in theory to cover them getting hit by GF while still getting mixup if they blocked is use j.HS at about the peak of your jump after GF YRC then act accordingly to what happens. If they got hit by GF, the j.HS will combo and you can convert. If they blocked GF crouching, j.HS whiffs and you go for the usual mixup. If they block GF standing, j.HS connects and you go for the mixup after that (different blockstun here though due to j.HS). I think this would be pretty hard to confirm due to timing of things changing depending on whether j.HS connects or not but in theory it would work. Haven't really tried in real matches yet.

If they start purposely getting hit by GF and you expect it, you can always falling j.D too to easily convert into huge damage.

Also might as well mention something interesting from a recent match. I messed up the YRC timing and did it too early so I got RC, improv led to possibly really expensive extra mixup options: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh1XDwom9VU&t=45s

Haven't gotten that gapless on IB yet, but IB timing on that GF is really weird, the slow down is so significant. No gap on normal block though. You can do this sort of thing in the usual GF YRC setup, but if they're quick they'll be ready to throw your landing and you'd have to mix in empty VV and whatnot.

(also yeah I totally could have killed with OTG's in that round, oops)

[VR-Raiden]

Some theory mixup. Messed around with GF RC oki and stumbled on this trick. Looks hilarious, need to play test. You do BB so it whiffs just before their wake-up then 2K. Timed right you're still airborne so if they reversal throw GF will CH. You can delay BB more to make it connect.

http://www.twitch.tv/vrraiden/b/653165550?t=00h55m10s at 55m10s

More to be seen out of it this I think but wanted to share the BB thing.

At the end I'm toying with whiffing something horribly obvious and making the opponent try to hurt you, not realizing GF will connect meaty (because it's somewhat hard to tell that it will, and if timing is off slightly it won't). Then you probably still have time to mixup if they blocked. Gonna be looking at it more.

[Gramas]

it seems new blitz kills sol gf yrc oki.

even in this version there are some characters(sin leo chipp) who during gf yrc oki the advantage is so big that if they reversal blitz you get repellead

doesnt seem reliable at high level of play...still can be used if opponent has less than 25%

Mugen does now new enders to get perfect spacing for safe jump OS  land 2k or IAD mixup

[VR-Raiden]

I think it's also lost effectiveness just from people getting more familiar with Sol and Xrd in general. It wasn't ever strong enough to last as a 100% go-to oki option. I definitely use it less than I used to.

On another subject I was looking at unblockable off wall slump possibilities a bit ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbRY2vHEH_A. It doesn't seem that great for Sol (not surprisingly). If you do it with WT, you can't combo after GF hits due to WT recovery (WT RC would probly work though). It seemed best with GF(YRC) > walk 6P+HS since you get 6P on GF hit and throw otherwise. But that requires 75% to get anything off that throw. Only practical situation I can see is you have 75%, and corner 5D won't kill them but your throw reset combo will.

It's also pretty annoying to time and if you mess up, well say goodbye to any profit off a nice corner 5D hit.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I'm not sure if the lack of GF YRC oki is due to Blitz blowing it up. It may have more to do with just conserving meter. The presence of the new Blitz does somewhat reduce the effectiveness of just doing GF YRC meaty into flowchart oki mixup, but you are still vulnerable to GF YRC IAD crossups because you cannot Blitz them on reaction; you must guess, and if the Sol player didn't IAD and did just a regular jump, you won't Reject him and I think he gets a free throw or WT at that point. The downside is that usually, the combos available off of GF YRC IAD are not super strong, so it's not an efficient use of meter. I think that's why Mugen usually saves those setups for when the opponent is already down a large portion of life and can't afford to get opened up again.

The other side of this is that wakeup Blitz leaves the opponent hella open to eating counter hits if you didn't commit to anything, which oddly enough strengthens Sol's oki because the potential to end rounds suddenly becomes available off of minor openings. For example, wakeup Blitz is an easy way to deal with safejump S off of an oki setup, but if you guess wrong, you get all sorts of screwed over. This leads more conservative players to just block on wakeup, but this is usually a wrong answer against Sol because the chance of getting blown up by a command grab or some other mixup into a high damage combo is always present, and a single opening is all Sol needs to end rounds in Xrd. You can also see this in the way Mugen usually ends combos. Often, instead of sealing the deal with a guaranteed oki setup off of BR or VV, he will end the combo prematurely at Kudakero and aim for an airthrow reset. The way this is timed, it's basically a guaranteed snatch if the opponent techs at all, but if the opponent does not tech, Sol has plenty of time to run another mixup on their wakeup. It's basically a lose-lose situation, since teching almost guarantees that you eat the airthrow, and it's usually a very low throw that gives Sol the opportunity to combo you again. If the preceding combo was strong, there's a good chance that you get stunned and lose the round right there. Even if it's not a low throw, conserving meter often means Sol has enough meter to just RC and stun you anyway.

The end result is that often good Sol players can run simpler oki setups that are actually more powerful (because the new defensive system ironically gives you more powerful ways to open a defensive player up). These setups use no meter, which allows Sol to reserve meter for resetting offense after the opponent blocks correctly and for baiting Burst. In fact, I often see Sol players just reserving their meter and going for oki -> simple combo -> reset oki, making him even MORE setplay than he was before. Then once the opponent is low on life, the meter can be used for crazy oki setups that are incredibly difficult to block. If you watch one of these players (again, Mugen is a great example) and really get into the flow of the match, you get accustomed to seeing these basic oki setups over and over. Then when the player finally goes for something funkier, like a surprise midscreen GF YRC IAD crossup at the end of a round, it's very jarring and unexpected. I wouldn't be surprised if the opponent of the Sol player feels the same way, which makes the setup even more difficult to defend against.

It's interesting to see how evolving metagame affects strategic choices and character placement. Funny how system changes that initially seem to negatively affect a character end up making them even stronger in the long run.

[Gramas]

the risk of reversal blitz during gf YRC oki is almost 0

you reversal blitz on reaction and you just get benefits from it

even if sol doesnt get repellead you can OS throw all options and even safejump will whiif and gets punished depending on the character hurtbox

 

the desprectfull of oki game is really large these days, the opponents who want to commit during their wakeup are always more and more

usually ppl would rather guess reversal blitz(who beats safejump low AD and high AD j.p) or OS throw. just to change the momentum and we all know that changing the momentum is huge in gg. backdash is still used but a bit less since the reward from anti BD os is actually good in damage and reset the same situation

I really hate reversal blitz on safejumps, you can still bait it but xrd is the first game where safe jumps are not safe. (lol) and sol is one of the character who gets hurt more by this

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

On 11/20/2015, 12:46:15, Gramas said:

the risk of reversal blitz during gf YRC oki is almost 0

you reversal blitz on reaction and you just get benefits from it

even if sol doesnt get repellead you can OS throw all options and even safejump will whiif and gets punished depending on the character hurtbox

 

the desprectfull of oki game is really large these days, the opponents who want to commit during their wakeup are always more and more

usually ppl would rather guess reversal blitz(who beats safejump low AD and high AD j.p) or OS throw. just to change the momentum and we all know that changing the momentum is huge in gg. backdash is still used but a bit less since the reward from anti BD os is actually good in damage and reset the same situation

I really hate reversal blitz on safejumps, you can still bait it but xrd is the first game where safe jumps are not safe. (lol) and sol is one of the character who gets hurt more by this

Reversal Blitz during GF YRC oki only works depending on the setup. Midscreen you can space it such that the opponent is out of throw range, so if they try to throw OS after doing it, they are vulnerable. It works better on corner YRC oki.

As far as guessing reversal Blitz against safejump oki, this is a losing bet in the long run. The risk/reward is skewed so heavily in Sol's favor. You are spending 25% meter on a chance of changing the momentum while potentially leaving yourself open to death. Yeah, you shut down the safejump option, but if he does either airdash j.S-D or land into 2D, you get CH and lose a ton of life + stun. You can guess OS throw against those options, but then if he does safejump, you either get hit, or block and then do DAA if you happen to have 50 meter stocked, which he can then block and punish. In the long run, the benefit of changing the momentum gets lost when you end up taking 50% plus and leaving yourself open to being stunned on a semi regular basis. A lot of this depends on the players in question though, and it's always possible for one player to have a better read on the other, making certain situations work better than others. But in terms of overall numbers and risk/reward, Sol actually benefits more than he is hurt, because reversal Blitz gives him huge openings to do killer damage with one of his CH combos.

Another point is that in spite of your statement on disrespect of oki, Japanese Sol players do safejump oki all the time, even against players who have a ton of meter stocked, and this is in Revelator, where Blitz got buffed significantly. Maybe it's just a by-product of Japanese players being extremely respectful on defense, but if something just straight up doesn't work well anymore, most top level players probably wouldn't touch it. I don't think safejump oki falls into that category, as it's something you will literally see all of the time in matches.

[Gramas]

you cant ch 2HS BB if you bait blitz in a proper way because empty jump or double jump expose you to big risks(especially against character with strong vertical anti air such as elphelt c.s) you expose yourself to airthrow as universal punish, actually you can bait it just by airdash back

Yes japanese players are too rspectfull...I even reversal blitz FAB multiple times and then built the mind game after when he tried to bait my blitz(too bad pot cant airdash lol)

its still a guessing game when you are attempting to push your advantage to the max(opponent knocked down doing safe jump OS) and then you can find yourself knocked down with 30% less health

I really dislike the mechanic against safe jumps but i really like it against meaty eddie/grenade lol

 

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Who said you have to double jump to bait Blitz? Doing land into 2D or airdash S-D both beat Blitz and result in big damage, especially in the corner. If you are spaced properly, wake up throw OS is not a concern.

And yes, it is a guessing game, but it is one that is grossly in the favor of the attacker. The person on defense has to blindly commit to using 25% meter while risking getting CH for huge damage. At worst, the attacker might take some damage, but even then the damage is not guaranteed because you can still Blitz Return if you have meter; the only time this is a really bad idea is if the opponent has another 25% meter stocked, because then after Blitzing they can use YRC OS to bait your Blitz Return and then deal guaranteed massive damage.

How'd you do against FAB overall? High level players can always get caught by something they aren't expecting someone to do because it's not viable at the higher level. That's just the nature of fighting games.

[Gramas]

not saying you are not in advantage but still kinda sux not having a 100% safe option when the opponent is knocked down to condition him

I did bad and even when i could have won he pulled out some "FAB" things

not really easy to play one of the god in an obscure MU...it was back in may and i wasn't even half the player im now though, especially neutral wise

[Tofma]

GF YRC isn't all pointless. Mugen for example still uses the old trick where you do GF YRC timed so that the YRC happens AFTER the opponent has already committed to something on wakeup. Such as Slayers backdash shenanigans or just shitty reversals in general. 

https://youtu.be/Gfq4Bgvbl-Y?t=557

Blitz is kinda gay but on the positive side punishing it with CH 2H or 6H is really satisfying.

[Gramas]

we are talking about perfect spaced gf yrc jump 2k/low AD mixup. that option is still really good against slayer

[Don Blow Jon]

Here's a gimmick you can use when applying 6P pressure in the corner  

 

 

They can counter the gimmick by mashing before the YRC or jumping after it (which can then be countered with just going for a normal to continue applying pressure).

[EXWildWolf]

Some stuff by Eiji.

 

 

 

[EXWildWolf]

 

 

[EXWildWolf]