so moe kona Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 I meant to share this sooner but for some reason, I couldn't remember it for the longest time. It was during a tournament I had and I was playing against my friend who was using Tager against me (and he mains Nu) in loser's finals. Because I treated every Tager I came across like online players, rushed him down at every opportunity. DON'T DO THAT! A good Tager will want you to rush so he can 360 you every chance he can get. Don't try to chase them after knockdown either. Use D after knockdown when you're at a safe distance. If you try to pressure during knockdown, the Tager has the ability to roll tech and 360 or 720 you on the spot. Your absolute best option is to run away and ZONE ZONE ZONE! I don't care if the matchup is 7-3 in Nu's favor. If you let Tager close the gap on you, you're done. I did end up winning that set because I smartened up (at the last minute). If you want to win, think distance.
kriaser Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 I mean to share this sooner but for some reason, I couldn't remember it for the longest time. It was during a tournament I had and I was playing against my friend who was using Tager against me (and he mains Nu) in loser's finals. Because I treated every Tager I came across like online players, rushed him down at every opportunity. DON'T DO THAT! A good Tager will want you to rush so he can 360 you every chance he can get. Don't try to chase them after knockdown either. Use D after knockdown when you're at a safe distance. If you try to pressure during knockdown, the Tager has the ability to roll tech and 360 or 720 you on the spot. Your absolute best option is to run away and ZONE ZONE ZONE! I don't care if the matchup is 7-3 in Nu's favor. If you let Tager close the gap on you, you're done. I did end up winning that set because I smartened up (at the last minute). If you want to win, think distance. I mentioned before in one of my posts about Tager getting a 360B off of me when I act pulsar behind him. This once again happened today while I was messing around with a Tager online. Basically, it only happens if they know you'll Act Pulsar or rush in. Once I changed my game plan to ranged and gravity wells, he'd do command throws when I Act Pulsar backwards, which lead me to free damage. Also, never use D once they tech from a knockdown. Unless you RC from a 214D combo, don't ever D on a Tager knock down unless you're max range and can be ready for an Act Pulsar if he sledge hammers toward you.
Heroic_Legacy Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Oki with D is very good. Because if he attempts to sledge you can pulsar backwards and CH 5D or 6C. Try this: When they are knocked down up close, do 214D and charge it to the max if they roll tech, free combo. If they neutral tech and don't block, free combo. If they don't tech, free combo. If they tech and sledge, 2C that shit and 5k combo it.
kriaser Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Oki with D is very good. Because if he attempts to sledge you can pulsar backwards and CH 5D or 6C. Try this: When they are knocked down up close, do 214D and charge it to the max if they roll tech, free combo. If they neutral tech and don't block, free combo. If they don't tech, free combo. If they tech and sledge, 2C that shit and 5k combo it. Never. Ever. Ever. Do a full charge 214D vs a Tager unless 1) you're full range. 2) He has no spark bolt to use. Sledge hammer beats this, and it's not like it can't be blocked upon normal teching. No Tager does a natural wake up.
Heroic_Legacy Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 But 2C beats sledge hammer. The time spent from the blade hitting him gives you enough time to recover and 2C it. dotSafety does this constantly after a crescent blade combo ender. Only half the time he screws the timing up and I get the CH sledge, the other half I lose all my health because he'll RC the combo into 7k unless I burst.
kriaser Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 But 2C beats sledge hammer. The time spent from the blade hitting him gives you enough time to recover and 2C it. dotSafety does this constantly after a crescent blade combo ender. Only half the time he screws the timing up and I get the CH sledge, the other half I lose all my health because he'll RC the combo into 7k unless I burst. So, in other words, it's roughly a 50/50 chance for Nu to tack on an extra 3k or so damage vs Tager. That chance is a huge chance to take. If there was a way to perfect this, I could see it working, but it's simply canceled out by Tager doing a normal tech and a normal/barrier block. I get what you're saying though. 214D causes a barrier for the Sledge to break through, whereas you then punish the Sledger with a 2C, 3C or whatever. In my personal opinion, I would still favor a knockdown > gravity well > retreat tactic. Being close to Tager for a 'maybe it'll work' chance is really not something you want to try when you're a glass cannon like Nu. I will look into this though to see if it can be made more practical. I know I've used a full charge 214D at full range, ran along side it and either did a 2147D or a grab, or a sweep, whatever. EDIT: I looked up dotSafety for some youtube videos, found one of you guys fighting. If you have a link to a specific case in which this strat was used, I'd like to see it
Andy6000 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Kriaser, you're not really taking timing into account... Hell, barely anyone in this thread is, and when fighting a Tager, who can throw out a 360A if you leave 4 frames in, that's a problem. You get the fully charged spike chaser early, if he neutral techs at first opportunity, his only choice is to block or sledge the 214D~C, if you did the spike chaser early enough, you're now just sitting there feeling dandy, and should probably be putting a 2C out there right as he decides to sledge. If your timing is down, worst case scenario is you have him in a blockstring, and you have excellent mixup (for a bit) as Nu, best case, CH 2C, which if you've already knocked him down, means you're probably going to get him to a corner, which means about 7k meterless if you know what you're doing (I don't generally know Tager specific combos very well, so probably about 6-6.5k for me)
kriaser Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Kriaser, you're not really taking timing into account... Hell, barely anyone in this thread is, and when fighting a Tager, who can throw out a 360A if you leave 4 frames in, that's a problem. You get the fully charged spike chaser early, if he neutral techs at first opportunity, his only choice is to block or sledge the 214D~C, if you did the spike chaser early enough, you're now just sitting there feeling dandy, and should probably be putting a 2C out there right as he decides to sledge. If your timing is down, worst case scenario is you have him in a blockstring, and you have excellent mixup (for a bit) as Nu, best case, CH 2C, which if you've already knocked him down, means you're probably going to get him to a corner, which means about 7k meterless if you know what you're doing (I don't generally know Tager specific combos very well, so probably about 6-6.5k for me) Again, look at this in the sense of risk/reward. The risk? You screw up and die. Why die? Cause Tager will end you if you're put into a corner from a CH combo from him. The reward? You maybe got a 6k additional combo on Tager. Nice. For timing to be a factor here, it's not worth the risk. It's reliant on Tager doing a Sledge hammer at a 214D. Most Tager's don't sledge hammer on wake ups. It's pretty stupid and heavily punishable. The only time I use 214D up close is after a 3C > 236D, when I don't have meter to RC. If this is what you're talking about, I'm sorry about the confusion. I still will NEVER do a 214D~C at that close of a range. If he does tech roll foward, you risk a lot.
Andy6000 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 If he tech rolls forward... He should get hit. That's the point of it. And 'timing something correctly or not' doesn't really sit with risk vs. reward for me, that's just execution skill. If you can't do it, yeah you'll get punished. If you can't do 5DD 4DD 236D, you're going to have problems, same thing, higher level. I mean, yeah you don't have to, and it'd probably be an easier plan to sit at the other side of the stage spamming swords. But that's... Well, boring. And I'm willing to try harder to get a higher reward, and make things less boring.
Heroic_Legacy Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Looking at the range that you should be doing 214D it appears you already just caught him in a nice MY DEFENSES! combo that literally killed his health bar. Not to mention, shouldn't you just burst when he sledges you for a counterhit? It isn't like he can one shot you or anything once you bursted with full health. What's worse? Bursting your last 20% away because he CH sledged? Or bursting right away because you know damned well that he can't even catch you from full screen if you play your cards right. If Tager really attempts to move forward from full screen, you can just, you know, blockstring him back into the corner. Any type of tech, Tager will get hit by the damned thing unless he blocks or sledges. And if he blocks, you 2C into a nice blockstring that eats his libra, if he sledges, you get a 6k combo. If wrong, you only take about 4k and magnetism, which can easily be averted by using D's that don't move you off the ground. Or as I've found out, jump up for the collider, but j.C spam CH lead into combo from there.
Arcade Fire87 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 ...I don't really like the advice you're giving Heroic. Doing that shit against a good Tager is big trouble. On top of that, some Tager's can do all sorts of tech traps once they've just landed a SINGLE BnB on Nu, which forces you to burst. Getting smacked with 4000 damage if Nu can do more is great and all, but you'll most likely feel the effects of more than just 4000 damage. Nu doesn't have to be fancy in this fight, zone, zone and zone more. I would never try to rush down a Tager at ALL if I were playing seriously. Sure, I do it when I'm bored but that's it. And that spike chaser isn't really a smart idea. If Tager rolls from a distance back or forth, 5D catches him into a 6DD>2DD>jDD>jDD>j2DD>cresent.No need for spike chaser And full range I'll throw out a full spike chaser, if they're dumb enough to sledge through it just follow up with a 5D combo
Andy6000 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Spike chaser sets up a blockstring, and Nu's pretty good in close range as long as the momentum is in her favor, especially against Tager. Not to mention... You're not going to get caught by tech traps if you know what to do. Can he cancel the move into AC? Don't tech in the air. Obviously that's the most simple, but you really shouldn't have to be bursting to not eat combo after combo. As for 5D catching him, it's an especially good idea against Tager, since it'll catch him if he rolls or if he takes too long to neutral tech, but against a good Tager... The spike chaser idea is probably better. He can sledge through it, but that's really his only option while remaining offensive, and either way, following the spike chaser with a 2C will be to your advantage.
Arcade Fire87 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Andy, I'm not talking about tech traps like...when he does a regular Bnb, smacks you away to the other side of the screen and then does atomic collider hoping you air teched. I'm talking about more complex one's, like Astraroths. The kind where you'll get jabbed in the air, either he does AC if you air tech or do a 360/720 of some kind if you fall on th ground. You're right, Nu has some awesome close game capabilities, but it's better if you just do hit and run tactics with her, if you hit with a good 2C or 3C that's awesome damage. You also play a really aggressive Nu though, Andy, which is out of norm with Nu in general. (I'm beginning to become 60 runaway Nu and 40 close up now though). Like I said though, no need to get fancy. Spike Chaser is really good for pressure from across the screen, but don't ever do it while he has full meter I don't think I've lost to one Tager in the past two weeks with simple zoning tactics
Andy6000 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 I just listed the simplest one I could think of for example's sake, considering that most people know it (it kind of sucks when you don't). As for the weirder ones... You really have to get a feel for how Tager plays, preferably being pretty good at Tager yourself to know what he can do, when. If you get jabbed in the air, it's probably pretty beneficial to just let yourself fall for a bit until the Tager does something telling to react to. If he 2Ds because you're just lying there, neutral tech through it and go to town, if he does a 360, just lie there for a bit, etc etc But yes, it's pretty much always going to be most effective against Tager to just sit back and let your range do the talking, since then your only real worry is watching his spark bolt meter. But if that's all you know... Well, suffice to say, you're going to lose. You're not going to keep up the impregnable defense forever against a Tager who can IB and knows the tricks to getting through, and if all you've been thinking about is that shiny D button, you're going to get pounded by the aforementioned tech traps. Being able to escape without having to waste your resources is a precious skill to have in this matchup. Oh speaking of important things... Tager's looping blockstrings. Those are a serious pain. It's sometimes not the worst idea to just let him hit you with a 5D just to escape. Heroic, if you're reading this, could you enlighten us as to the normal Tager blockstring? I honestly can't remember what it is, or even how I'm supposed to get out of it (other than my usual fantastic 'let myself get hit in the face with a giant flaming punch' method).
Arcade Fire87 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Ah, that's pretty interesting about the 2D, didn't know neutral tech worked. I gotta disagree with you though, Andy, I've had matches were I primarily used 5D. I watch for flying Tagers, don't 5D too close to them, be cute and dash 2D. Seeing Tager fly and dash underneath them to the otherside is fun too. Suffice to say, I do like to mix in pulsars for 2C in hopes of either a CH or 2C combo>RC A lot of Tagers don't ever seem to block low against Nu either. I like to rush Tager on the ground sometimes, but only at mid range at last second I dunno, we play very differently I guess, Andy. I've only watched you v Astaroth so I can't judge yet, but you had a really fun Nu.
Coinage Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 arcade fire87, im a tager player, even against shitty nu's, its a bad match up for tager so oh well well i know if you time sledge hammer you can counter when he recovers from the move
Heroic_Legacy Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 @Andy, Counter Assault makes Tager cry. Blockstring is usually 5Ax# 5B 5C/6A/6C(Overhead) 5D Sledge, repeat. If this is the first loop and you aren't magnetized, you can block his 5C and backdash before he can 5D. If you are, then wait until after 5D to backdash. Jab to collider is NOT an advanced tech trap. It's the same damn trap, the only difference is you're semi smart, you're in the corner, and you just took close to 400 more damage. Cry more. It's just 5A. There are nastier tech traps out there. But all the tech traps that do major damage are when you are airbourne. I can't anything AC anything if you mash 5D. The bigger tech traps don't require magnetism. As half of them are off of A sledge.
Arcade Fire87 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 I...wasn't crying about it? And I mainly was refering to it in the corner since it can lead to taking damage no matter the choice you make Like I said, the matchup is crazy uneven, I have nothing to cry about
so moe kona Posted October 31, 2009 Posted October 31, 2009 This is for when you're magnetized and Tager caught you in one of those tech traps. When you're midscreen away in mid-air and you teched after Tager's BnB, when he goes for an Atomic Collider, you can 2D him in the air which will save you the frustration of getting caught in the trap and escape. You'll end up on the other side of more than mid-screen away which is a reasonably safe distance to be at to continue your zoning game.
Heroic_Legacy Posted October 31, 2009 Posted October 31, 2009 Much better to do your air to air melee combo.
kriaser Posted November 1, 2009 Posted November 1, 2009 This is for when you're magnetized and Tager caught you in one of those tech traps. When you're midscreen away in mid-air and you teched after Tager's BnB, when he goes for an Atomic Collider, you can 2D him in the air which will save you the frustration of getting caught in the trap and escape. You'll end up on the other side of more than mid-screen away which is a reasonably safe distance to be at to continue your zoning game. In the same sense, when you get pulled in from his atomic collider, you can use jC or j2C in some cases for this same effect, except the jC lasts longer than a j2D. Both require timing and knowledge of where you're at. It's still in your favor to avoid high jumps when magnetized. j2D and jC won't clip Tager if you're too high up. Still a good tip to know if you ever end up in an "oh shi~" situation.
so moe kona Posted November 1, 2009 Posted November 1, 2009 Still a good tip to know if you ever end up in an "oh shi~" situation. I'm always in those situations I play like an idiot sometimes.
kriaser Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 New discovery! Tager can 360A if your 2C is blocked and you go for a 6C. Not Sure why I thought doing a 6C was a good idea, but I did it and took the damage.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 25, 2009 Posted November 25, 2009 New discovery! Tager can 360A if your 2C is blocked and you go for a 6C. Not Sure why I thought doing a 6C was a good idea, but I did it and took the damage. by theory if you do 3C we can 360A you if we IB it, i don't know lately i haven't 360A'd much.
severin Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Right, I wanted to test the previous point a bit. Training dummy set to dash 3C, then hold up. Tager instant-blocks 3C, nu jumps away from 360a Tager instant-blocks 3C, nu gets grabbed by 360b and 720c
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