[CT] Jin vs Rachel

[Killey]

I'm looking for advice on this match up as I got wtfpwned by an exceptional Racheal player yesterday. If I could maintain pressure I had the match but the minute the Racheal player could get out of my pressure it was game over for me. From what I can tell Racheal is vulnerable to Ice Car if she is launching those lightning rods from the ground correct me if I'm wrong though and I think I am. Frog in jumping animation can die to 5D but not sure if I want to be doing this often with all of the other shit Racheal throws at you during this time. Jin has a weak hi/low mix up game and the only way to do an overhead is after a 2.a, which makes it a bit obvious in your block strings. Once the opponent sees I'm starting something with 5B he can low guard and be safe unless I mix it up with a throw but a few of those and they will anticipate and tech out. Racheals pressure game is sick especially when you are put in a position of blocking the frog. I'm now in a guessing game of low jump overheads or low knockdowns. Part of my problem is I don't know what Racheal that well so is there any visual indication of anticipating on those hi/low mix ups? Furthermore, is there anything in general that can help in this match?

[ryokoalways]

mixup isn't your only way to pressure. Beat Rachel with frame traps. Rachel has bad defense, and her electric chair is more of a gimmick then anything (since you can jump cancel basically all your normals, use that to beat that slow move). You should be able to make her pay dearly everytime you get in. Be creative in staying close, setting up frame traps, and once you have them a little dazed, throw in a few other tricks (throws, 6a, etc). Try to not jump too much though, rachel's 6a is good. Don't use musou to engage. Rachel doesn't really have anything that has that much recovery that she would do if you are that far away. Don't worry too much about frog. And just keep in mind that it takes 700 damage to kill it (so a 2b isn't gonna do the job I think. Rachel has amazingly good offense, but that applies to all characters that go against her. Nothing to do here other than to get experience blocking her mixups.

[Killey]

What are Jin's most commonly used frame traps at the moment? Although I've heard of frame traps I'm not too familiar with the concept. To my understand you are doing a move that basically puts you in a position where you have frame advantage at the end so whatever you do next you should have the priority. I think I've heard that 5B was Jin's frame trap but I'm not sure. Also, what are good options after Jin's frame trap? If this is all explained in a different thread can you point it to me. Thanks.

[ryokoalways]

Anything will work. I mean, there isn't a set rule for this. 5bX2, delay of c moves, backdash/poke baits, etc. Anything. Jin has a pretty decent collection of things he can use to break an opponent's defense.

[Killey]

So in other words I need to stop rushing in like an idiot and try to bait counters. Thanks. I'll be incorporating that into my game for sure tonight.

[shtkn]

teh frog dies/disappears the instant rachel blocks or is hit, same for the pumpkin. as for strategy, i just try to stay right outside of her 6B range (the fork attack of hers), and punish anything she does with 5D. if she is able to set up the pumpkin and frog and poles... then i dunno what to tell you other than learn to block and dodge. her 6A is very scary, so don't try to jump in on her. also, learn to punish her special moves with ice wave super.

[umgogo #]

Not to be overly picky, but this is the only "Racheal" I know of...

[Killey]

Oh didn't notice the typo thanks for pointing that out. Fixed now. shtkn: Thanks for the strats and advice. I didn't know pumpkin and frog die when Rachel is forced to block. Good stuff. I think I should be able to put up a better fight against that Rachel player next time I play. Just didn't understand the match up and limited experience against Rachel wasn't going to prep me for that.

[shtkn]

errr, correction, frog only disappears if rachel is hit, not if she blocks your attacks. you can also hit hte frog itself to kill it, but the frog has 700 health, so plan your attacks accordingly.

[InfiniteAmmo]

Rachel can tend to make Jin players feel claustrophobic. She can feel the screen up. Rushing her down isn't effective either, because most rachel players have to block patiently because her defense is worthless. Good news is, she doesn't have that " WTF Get the hell of me!!" move. She can't really pwn you for using you 5D at Jin sword length. If you can get her frozen into a rushdown, the chaos generally slows. Use lots of 236Bs to keep her on her toes. Play cat and mouse......and just be thankful you are not playing a NU 13 player.

[cosplayerkyo]

I've noticed you can hit Racheal with the Ice Car (the D version) twice in a row (so if you hit her with the Ice Car, just do it again and it'll pick her up right from the ground).

[QuickFast]

I've noticed you can hit Racheal with the Ice Car (the D version) twice in a row (so if you hit her with the Ice Car, just do it again and it'll pick her up right from the ground).

yea it's funny. it's because she lies down on her cat thing.

[Killey]

Thanks for the advice early on I've now played multiple Rachel players and have been succesful in handling all of them.

[faylar]

I'm pretty sure rachael players can use her 2C as a "get out of my face" card.

[ryokoalways]

Electric chair is slow and way too unsafe. That's not a card, that's a gimmick. You guess right once you are going to break out at least 4k damage on her ass (and it's easy because, again, it's super armor so you can reflexively jump and block that thing and still land to punish).

[Killey]

Okay here is my match up experience with Rachel. Her 6A is incredibly good. It's got so many good properties to it. It's her best anti-air, can OTG, and has super armor to it. It cleanly beats out Jin's j.B so do not use it for rush down/zoning tactics. It has 13 frame startup and has 5 active frames and takes 13 frames to recover from so it can be punished if baited. Just don't try to counter it on reaction as it does have armor properties wait until the attack comes out and then punish. It eats projectiles but just 1 so 236D will still go through. 6B is one of Rachel's better pokes and she will use this to fish for counter hits. On counter hit from midscreen can lead to her corner combo that will deal around 50% of your health. It has long recovery so can be punished if whiffed but good Rachel players will have Pumpkin/Frog/Bat Poles as means to keep her safe. j.C is a good juggle for Rachel so if you get jump/air tech happy she can keep you juggled with this move. j.2C is the spike drop overhead that is commonly used in her rush downs in conjunction with her Drive. It can be normal cancelled to kill the recovery of the landing allowing Rachel to resume her rush. You don't have to be too concerned if the frog is out as part of the Rush uses her Drive which pushes you far away from the frog. The pumpkin on the other hand keeps her safe (the rush in general is safe). This rush down uses a lot of hi/low mixups but is easy to predict as j.2C is the only overhead in the rush so you can block low and when you see her jump block high. Granted, it's a really low jump and comes out fast due to the use of her Drive but can't be predicted. You can C Fubuki her or barrier guard to try to reset the distance and pacing. 2C is the Cat Chair and has armor properties. It's a bad move overall but is good to get her out of over committed rush downs. She can combo if she nails a CH on you with this so be aware. It's got horrible recovery and can be baited on people who spam this with some dash cancelling. Rachel crumbles when pressured so just like any zoning character you want to get close. Jin has a better poking game then Rachel within 5C range so within that distance standard pokes are good. Anything farther from that range and Rachel has the advantage since she can set up Bat Poles/Frog/Pumpkin to prevent you from getting close. Her ground Bat Pole launch has bad recovery to it so if you can anticipate on the trajectory and landing of the Bat Pole you can Ice Car your way in. If you screw up you will get nailed by the Bat Pole and can eat the 22A follow up or her DD follow up. Don't try to outzone Rachel from full screen away as she can simply out do you in projectiles. Ice Wave Super is good to punish Bat Pole launches. The Frog is a pain in the ass and you need to keep an eye on it once it's out. As mentioned before it takes 700dmg to kill it. 2B to smack it on the ground. 5D to kill it if it jumps at you. You can simply avoid it but the Rachel wants you to do that so she can set up her games and eventually force you into a position where you are eating the frog hits or blocking it. Aerial 236A/B/D can kill the frog as well. I will somtime use those as a last resort if I feel I need to make a last minute dodge as it will push me back. You may be able to catch the Rachel player by surprise if they try to push towards the frog. If Rachel is hit the Frog dissapears so when possible get in close to Rachel to land a hit but if that Frog is closing in on you and Rachel is on the defensive its best to backwards air dash away then continuing to apply pressure. The Pumpkin can only be used as an offensive tool with Rachel's Drive. Floating by itself it doesn't do anything. Good Rachel players use the Pumpkin as part of her mixup, start to her rush, or means to keep her safe. It is rarely used as an offensive tool by itself as it wastes her Drive guage that is necessary to her rushes/pressure games. Pumpkin will dissapear if Rachel is hit. If Rachel has Bat Poles, Frog, and Pumpkin on screen then it's best to go on the defensive as Bat Poles stuff your attempts to getting in close. With the frog on the field you will always be keeping an eye on its position and you are bound to make a mistake which will lead to Rachel dealing big damage on you. On top of that the Pumpkin is keeping her safe as well as being a zoning tool. There is too many things to keep track of for Jin to launch a successful counter attack once she has all the traps laid. It's best to play defensively and try to bait out something punishable. You'll want to kill the Frog first but don't commit to that strategy as that's exactly what the Rachel player wants you to do. Essentially, she has divided your attention and can catch you with a mix up game while you are not paying enough attention to her. If she follows up the bat poles with 22A then you have some breathing room and now have a better means to get in close.

[ryokoalways]

Just nitpicking, but rachel 6a has super armor, so it doesn't kill projectiles, it just eats it up. This is important because if you fire d fireball, you can beat it. It can eat one, but not 2.

[Alzarath]

Minor corrections: You don't need to IB to punish 5B -> j.2C if you see it coming. Just don't get baited~ She CAN combo from CH 2C and get knockdown off it. So be careful of that.

[Killey]

Ah thanks for the corrections I'll edit my post here. Good stuff with the j.2C counter I thought for sure you had to IB that and I don't bother trying to IB stuff online due to lag/delay issues but if I can just C Fubuki it on anticipation that would be even better. Wouldn't the CH 2C combo be dependant on where you get hit? I can see her getting a combo off if she CH me on the ground but if she uses 2C as a CH anti-air I don't see her being able to combo off of it. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

[Alzarath]

If you're not too high, I'm sure she can still combo off AA CH 2C. Not 100% certain, and no good Rachel would want to use it as AA anyway, so that's not a big deal.

[Discotheque]

2C is probably the worst choice to be using as a getaway against Jin just because the risk-reward factor usually isn't worth it. D shoryu can rip apart Rachel's offense when used well and can have ridiculously nice damage output depending on location. This match-up is pretty momentum based imo. It's a matter of how well the Jin manages his tension.

[Darcius]

Its pretty simple. Don't have a fucking heart attack and rush her while she tries to zone, you will get ripped up by cannon and frog/pumpkin setups. Be like the Wet Bandits. Thats exactly what he wants you to do. Go around the other way and you'll have her hung on your coatrack in no time. Also, stay the fuck away from tarred stairs, paintcans, icy steps, and doorknobs. All of this shit is fucking evil.

[HamsterJohn]

I don't think this is Jin's worst matchup (that's probably VERY OPEN) to many peoples' opinions but after playing 2 good rachels you REALLY need to be on your toes and be able to read the tempo of this match by the millisecond. Also keep in mind of EVERYTHING you have at your disposal (ie after being air combo'ed in the corner, tech and ice car out of there) IMO I'm beginning to realize Jin needs everything he has to keep this match being lopsided (ie Noel vs. Rachel) . Although I'm pretty sure everyone knows this but it doesn't hurt to put it out there: 2D kills frog, straight up.

[Discotheque]

And then you get hit by pumpkin, 分かります。 General gameplan for Jin Get Rachel to the corner via aerial combo/whatever Commence rape. Hope to god that the Rachel player doesn't IB->jump+wind or just jump away when you have a break in rush-down. Keep her pinned down as long as you can. Also your air D hadou (the one where you shoot 3 ice sword) is really fucking good during pressure if you tk it.

[ocdscale]

I noticed the discrepancy in the first and second page of the thread. For the record: Frog disappears when Rachel is hit only (or can be killed) Pumpkin disappears when Rachel is hit or blocks.