[CT] Iron Tager vs. Carl

[ShinsoBEAM]

Yeah I think we know the carl match is shit, basically the only hope I can really see, is doing some bullshit with backdodge, or airgrab 1million damage combo, and just like us and the clap loop, it will take 2-3 combos to kill. But yeah guys its 8-2 for a reason duh. Plus getting magnet on carl is a good thing it makes you more afraid of 360A, which means we can expect you to be on the ground less, or punish you easier if you decide to lose a few brain cells and do something dumb. I shall be back this weekend with more carl vs tager stuff hopefully, but damn did I notice an improvement versus other characters after sitting there IB blocking carls mixups when I got between nirvana and carl.

[4Corners]

What can Tager do v Carl when he's in the air and magnetized, btw? I can't think of anything off the top of my head that is scary enough to prevent jumping around behind nirvana, buuuuuuuut again, I haven't fought a REALLY good Tager that knew this match-up. I think that's another advantage us Carl players have. Despite being a little asshole character, he's REALLY underplayed.

[A.X.I.S.]

tch, if i magnetize carl, im 5Ding if i even think he's gonna jump..he's gonna smack into a counter hit and take 4000+ damage easy...the only thing im concerned with is if he decides to use nirvana as cover.

[ShinsoBEAM]

tch, if i magnetize carl, im 5Ding if i even think he's gonna jump..he's gonna smack into a counter hit and take 4000+ damage easy...the only thing im concerned with is if he decides to use nirvana as cover.

Hmmm the carl i played made his jump safe from obvious 5D by using nirvana, in many ways versus jump in's 6A with tager does well, blocks projectiles(nirvana:yaaay:), and pulls in magentized ppl closer.

[4Corners]

Doesn't Carl's j2c/allegretto beat out 5d, though? Again, not much exp vs people that know what they're doing.

[A.X.I.S.]

Doesn't Carl's j2c/allegretto beat out 5d, though? Again, not much exp vs people that know what they're doing.

thats why you stay the hell back, you need enough distance to start anything on carl...

IMO.:vbang::vbang::vbang:

[ZONG_one]

:vbang::vbang::vbang:

Heh, it's like one of those parties where someone cyanide spiked the kool-aid, only better.

I'm glad we can make Tager feel like that.

[ShinsoBEAM]

This match is p. much dependent on the carl messing up. Just learn his block strings and grab him out of them if possible, but then again he predicts you jumps, you whiff, nivana connects wham j. 2C, clap loop.

[Mikachiru]

Heh, it's like one of those parties where someone cyanide spiked the kool-aid...

And then there were none...O.o

Although it was soda, not kool-aid...

I'm glad we can make Tager feel like that.

Yup. The red demon who gets pwned at the hands of a 13-year old boy and his puppet. A fun match-up for me (except when I'm playing my friend Chad. Then again, he he knows how to rape Meta-Knights with Bowser in SSBB...).

[4Corners]

Not Chad as in PikaChad, right?

[Mikachiru]

Not Chad as in PikaChad, right?

I don't think so...

[4Corners]

Shame. Ohwell, what advice can we actually give Tager players in this match-up? This has almost become Carl general discussion. I mean, I know Carl kinda owns Tager, but I dun think it's right for us to dominate the character and the match-up discussion.

[Mikachiru]

Shame.

Ohwell, what advice can we actually give Tager players in this match-up? This has almost become Carl general discussion. I mean, I know Carl kinda owns Tager, but I dun think it's right for us to dominate the character and the match-up discussion.

Oh, right. Uh...Don't rush at Carl because almost all his attacks can lead into a combo or loop and...um...jab lock Nirvana into oblivion. XD

[MisoSowee]

if you jab lock nirvana into oblivion it leads into clap trap

[4Corners]

Been through that already. Also, jabbing the doll can get them ch into death, so they have to be careful. I dunno, I think most everything that can be said, has been. This is a crappy match-up, and you have to rely on your opponent not playing on par. Blegh.

[A.X.I.S.]

carl is doable much more than you guys think. you have to keep your distance and outsmart carl. i'll throw a few tidbits from fighting xcammy on xbl and the pain i experienced. opener..a good carl can hyper jump your ass easy but remember he wont come at you first thing, he will back away too. now hyper jump is the bullshit when carl turns a J.2B dive into a IAD fall trick, now for this to be effective from long range he's gonna high jump..be warned this shit is too hard to beat on reaction get back, i dont care if you wanna back dash..dont let him hit you with it, you will be between him and that fucking doll eating loops for breakfast followed by a clap loop lunch and a throw loop into clap loop dinner. next up when your pressuring carl dont use sledge, his 6C i think its 6C its this long range poke with the robot. you eat it for CH and loop again. if anything block that shit or high jump away, be real defensive but get your pressure in quickly, i noticed when carls use 41236D they hop towards you or use 236B to get behind you, you can sledge early to hit carl if you see carl jump you can a sledge and at least trade with him, remember you wanna play it basic for this fight, let him bring the fight to you, keep in mind when carl bursts they tend to burst only for loop or when they need you closer to the doll. use strings with low wiff so you can anticipate and block the burst and punish him with 360/720. i may edit this post later to make it more neat but this is all i got so far, i dont fight alot of good carl's but its a start right?

[4Corners]

Axis, we can play sometime if you'd liek. I've played xCammy, and he's not bad, buuuuuut if he's rolling while you aren't in blockstun, he kinda deserves to lose. I dunno, I play Carl v Tager like Nu v anyone. I wait until the Tager does something, then do sumfink on reaction. Sledging the fueco is cool and all, but you're pretty much asking to die if you do that. Aaaaaaand bursting for loop is pretty nifty, but I really think that unless there's no other alternative, Carl should just avoid burst, ever. He needs barrier too much to burst for anything aside from a guaranteed win/loss. But yeah, low recovery moves are pretty good in this fight. Keeps me from getting a stupid CH I didn't deserve into a free win. I'm sure this has been brought up a billion times But when carl does [2a, 5a, 5b, 6b, 6d]*n as pressure, make sure to IB the 6b. You miiiiiight be able to sneak in a sledge, if they weren't just baiting it. ALWAYS IB the 6b, though. Get some free tension and try to CA or something, if Tager's isn't balls. Or IB until you have meter, then IB>360 for some true pain. But that's all theoryfighter. I dunno if it works for real, since I don't get to fight legit MikeZ-esque Tagers.

[ShinsoBEAM]

Axis, we can play sometime if you'd liek.

I've played xCammy, and he's not bad, buuuuuut if he's rolling while you aren't in blockstun, he kinda deserves to lose.

I dunno, I play Carl v Tager like Nu v anyone. I wait until the Tager does something, then do sumfink on reaction. Sledging the fueco is cool and all, but you're pretty much asking to die if you do that.

Aaaaaaand bursting for loop is pretty nifty, but I really think that unless there's no other alternative, Carl should just avoid burst, ever. He needs barrier too much to burst for anything aside from a guaranteed win/loss.

But yeah, low recovery moves are pretty good in this fight. Keeps me from getting a stupid CH I didn't deserve into a free win.

I'm sure this has been brought up a billion times

But when carl does

[2a, 5a, 5b, 6b, 6d]*n as pressure, make sure to IB the 6b. You miiiiiight be able to sneak in a sledge, if they weren't just baiting it. ALWAYS IB the 6b, though. Get some free tension and try to CA or something, if Tager's isn't balls. Or IB until you have meter, then IB>360 for some true pain.

But that's all theoryfighter. I dunno if it works for real, since I don't get to fight legit MikeZ-esque Tagers.

Should be [2a, 5a, 5b, 6d, 6b]*n, man just the 6D hits after the 6B but you input it first but im sure you know that.

yeah p. much though this is what I do, also watch their tendences in that string, medicore carls do the same timing every time and can lead to free pokes.

Such as if they do the 6D a little late, IB, sledge, can be nasty as long as you weren't barrier blocking and putting them too far away.

If they do the 6D a tad bit early you can def IB the 6D for free 360A,720 unless they were baiting it and jumped or something.

also learn to barrier IB now alot of carls go ohh lol then ill just do [2a, 5a, 5b, 6d, 6b, 236a]*n, then ill just nothing 360/720 grab his face out when he tries that shit.

Also any spammy attack is free meter, aka nirvana 41236D attack is like free 24% meter, its not carl's wheel though use this for free like 60-70% meter.

edit:

Yeah another reason why not to burst is the odds of us 1hit KOing you go way up, due to the fact that you take 50% more damage and total lack of being able to have a I give up button sucks.

Plus unless I remember wrong you cannot kill with a combo from a barrier burst caused guard break you certainly can get a time out though, and if we try to throw break it counts as a new combo.

[A.X.I.S.]

so izzy when can we meet? i'm looking forward to it.

[4Corners]

Well, you're all the way out in Michigan. I guess I could take a greyhound... Joking aside, it'll prolly be tomorrow night. Maaaaaaaaaaybe tonight. I have morning classes on tu/tr, though, so I prolly won't stay up late on M/W.

[A.X.I.S.]

alright...looks like its almost time for me to go online soon..i slacked yesterday.

[4Corners]

Should be [2a, 5a, 5b, 6d, 6b]*n, man just the 6D hits after the 6B but you input it first but im sure you know that.

yeah p. much though this is what I do, also watch their tendences in that string, medicore carls do the same timing every time and can lead to free pokes.

Such as if they do the 6D a little late, IB, sledge, can be nasty as long as you weren't barrier blocking and putting them too far away.

If they do the 6D a tad bit early you can def IB the 6D for free 360A,720 unless they were baiting it and jumped or something.

also learn to barrier IB now alot of carls go ohh lol then ill just do [2a, 5a, 5b, 6d, 6b, 236a]*n, then ill just nothing 360/720 grab his face out when he tries that shit.

Also any spammy attack is free meter, aka nirvana 41236D attack is like free 24% meter, its not carl's wheel though use this for free like 60-70% meter.

edit:

Yeah another reason why not to burst is the odds of us 1hit KOing you go way up, due to the fact that you take 50% more damage and total lack of being able to have a I give up button sucks.

Plus unless I remember wrong you cannot kill with a combo from a barrier burst caused guard break you certainly can get a time out though, and if we try to throw break it counts as a new combo.

Carl can kill from a burst. Loop until they're at one health, let them fall between you and nirvana, backdash, 5c+6d to force block, and then gear to chip them out. GGs everyone ever. D:

Also, it's actually not 6d, 6b, unless you've had Nirvana off the whole time. I time it 6b~d, and it keeps them in blockstun while allowing Nirvana to recover in time.

Buuuuuuuuuuutttttttt

I have some info for you guys!

STEP ONE IN FIGHTING CARL!

DO NOT TECH THROWS UNLESS YOU INTEND TO BURST!

If you don't tech, Nirvana has to almost have full health (unless the Carl knows my reset trick) to kill you with a clap loop. This means that if you hit her even once, you're not dying from a loop, and Carl will be without his doll. This means hammertime. If you tech, we can turn her off and on again without even really trying, and then you're dead for sure. Also, we get 50-70 meter off of one reset. 100% tension=unblockable anywhere on screen. Be careful.

STEP TWO!

DO NOT BURST UNLESS YOU ARE SURE YOU'RE DEAD OTHERWISE!

This may sound like I'm just trying to make it so us Carl players can get free throw loops that are inescapable, but it's not. When you burst, you lose the ability to block Nirvana's srk (the nail thingies). This means that you lose the ability to JUMP, something VERY vital in this match-up. Sure, you can IB, but then all Carl has to do is NOT do the SRK, and one karacan IAD later, you're dead. If you HAVE to burst to keep Carl in the corner or something, do it when 3c hits. MikeZ has mentioned this before, but no Tagers really seem to follow his advice.

DO NOT APPROACH UNLESS YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO!

And I mean absolutely. While fighting Axis, I tried a few different ways for fighting Tager. If I approached, his chances of winning went up. If he approached, then all I had to do was 5c+6d to force a block/combo, and then it was GGs from there most times. At least when I approached, there was a chance of me mistiming my iad j.c/2c, and eating a 360 combo.

TREAT THE MATCH AS IF YOU HAVE 9K HEALTH!

Tager cannot afford to be hit in this match-up, at all. IB, backdash, do what you can to keep from getting mixed up/sandwiched. DO NOT THINK YOU CAN EVEN TAKE ONE JAB, BECAUSE YOU CAN'T!

LEARN TO IB 5C/6B!

If you can IB these, at the very worst, you'll have a LOOOOOOOT of tension. At best, you can 360, backdash, 720 (this hurts my feelings), sledge (careful about being baited), Magna Tech Wheel (I ate more than my fair share today), CA (dunno how good this is), aaaaand, best of all...

SLEDGE THROUGH GEAR SUPER FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

I have this naaaaaaaasty habit of forgetting Tager can cut right through the gear super. The gear super can lead to unblockables, Nirvana health resets, NAAAAAAASTY mix-ups, chip damage deaths, time stalling while recovering Nirvana health, or a trade in hits that most people can't afford to attempt. By sledging this move (intelligently), you can really catch a Carl off-guard and do some MASSIVE damage. Learn a CH sledge combo, and learn when to recognize a gear attempt. Seriously, I forget that you can do this sooooooooo often. D:

BLOCK LOW IF CARL DOES AN EMPTY IAD AND MISS YOUR AA!

I think this may be the most important one. Every time I did a karacan IAD, I managed to nail Axis with a combo that pretty much=win. While Carl perfecting you is prolly gonna happen eventually, it should be because all the other bullshit Carl has.

Go into training mode with Carl, and practice IAD j.2c~b (hold C). You'll know you did it right when Carl plummets while going forward in the air. He lands with zero lag, and you can rest assured that all except for the ballsiest of Carl players will immediately follow up with 2a/2b. Learn to block this, and you'll win more(or at least not lose as badly) against Carl.

Aaaaaaaand, last but certainly not least...

DO NOT EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER DO A NAKED SLEDGE WHEN NIRVANA IS ALIVE!

Yeah, yeah. We all know that Nirvana counts as a projectile. Buuuuuuuuut, you aren't trying to kill Nirvana. You're trying to kill Carl. If you try to approach with sledge, rest assured that, while you got past 6d, you have now been CH by 5c, 6d is continuing the combo, and you're pretty much dead. Do NOT do this. Axis ate a lot of combos he didn't need to just because I'd wait until he was between me and Nirvana, and then I'd use 5c+6d to ruin his day.

SO yeah, those are just a few things to keep in mind. There's a LOT more to worry about, but we'll work on that when we have everything else down, first.

Anyway

----

GGs to Axis. Good Tager that did some weird things sometime. Stick to combos that end in magnetism. Yeah, I can use it against you, but those aerial tech-traps make me saaaaad. Also, it allows you to have some semblance of control during the match. I ate so many purple throws... ugh.

Axis actually did really well vs Carl. I ~think~ he took `/3 of the matches. He normally took at least a round in the matches he lost, and showed me not to get too bloodthirsty or cocky in this fight. Tager may be at a disadvantage, but his combos still hurt. Also, they feel almost burstproof sometimes. Magna Tech Wheel ate me alive sooooooo many times. D:

Just work on the things above, and I think your win rate vs me will go up pretty quickly. Thanks for stomping me when I tried to go Solo Carl vs you. I'll prolly try again, but it helped humble me a little bit about this match-up.

Oh, don't use spark volt when Nirvana is between us. I randomly turn/leave her on when I see your meter is full. It's better to keep it so I can't IAD, or to use it in combos to get me to panic and burst prematurely. Think of it as Dead On Time. Use it to CH on reaction, not to try for abare.

But yeah, good stuff. I think I'll use Ragna vs you a little next time, so I can get a feel for just how devious your Tager is. Carl has this nasty habit of making one of the players look like they're waaaaaaaaaay below the level they really are. I used to think a LOT of Colorado players sucked, then I tried playing with Ragna, and found out that Carl is just really really gay.

[A.X.I.S.]

man that fight was like arakune except there were death loops...i couldnt go down without taking your life, you even made me start using tech wheel to kill you when you burst and made me rush 720 you. needless to say that was the biggest ass beating i ever got online in player matches. good thing is after playing you i beat xcammy..i took some notes and played my odds accordingly with the experience you gave me.. thanks for the fun, im gonna have to practice with you again. feels like the 2/8 odds are a little inaccurate playing you, then again some people tell me i have a strange/evil tager. you forgot one thing though. 41236D will rape you, you can only beat it with A sledge or high jump, and your not gonna beat carls airs unless your there before him...

[4Corners]

I didn't think fueco did that well against ya. Remember that I try to refrain from allecan teleport combos, since there's no buffering in two separate spots and comboing online without buffers=no good. Pretty much, I think that if Carl plays boring as hell and waits for Tager to approach, he can win every time. Unless the Tager manages to land a naked spark volt (chip damage=damage=win by time out!), Carl has nothing to really fear sitting fullscreen at 5c+6d distance from Nirvana. But yeah, GGs. Was lotsa fun. I wanna play you more so I learn to stop being greedy. lololol.

[A.X.I.S.]

are you kidding it annoyed the hell out of me, that move is much longer than it seems. if i sledge it i have to hit you too, if i dont then you get to 5c ch me and show me kid power, you made it real hard for me to go for my usual aggressive smash your face in with magnetism, again i never got my ass kicked so hard lol, now i know how to keep myself alive. simplest yet hardest thing, dont fuck up! if you end up bursting then its best to do mike z's advice and finish it quick, or you die from the clap.