[Xrd] Jack-O' Gameplay Discussion Thread

[TheRandomGamerD]

Can I clarify the technically official terms for her stuff?

Ghosts specifically are the pumpkins her servants spawn from, not the actual servants.
The servants have their own names and Jack-O' actually says these names when she places down their ghosts; K Ghosts spawn "Lancers", P Ghosts spawn "Knights" and S Ghosts spawn "Magicians".

 

I have updated the Jack-O wiki to reflect this.

[brningpyre]

At 4:01:30 in the match between ComicLEO and Jonio, ComicLEO triggers the explosion countdown, retrieves the ghosts, and then re-places the ghosts.

If you retrieve during the countdown, the ghosts lose the countdown, and you can re-place them while all the servants still countdown and explode. This looks like a cute trick for forcing the opponent to block while you place across the screen.

[Soniti]

At 4:01:30 in the match between ComicLEO and Jonio, ComicLEO triggers the explosion countdown, retrieves the ghosts, and then re-places the ghosts.

If you retrieve during the countdown, the ghosts lose the countdown, and you can re-place them while all the servants still countdown and explode. This looks like a cute trick for forcing the opponent to block while you place across the screen.

This looks quite useful if you have ghosts at low HP you'd like to "heal up" safely while creating space.

[brningpyre]

Potemkin can't flick the servants while they're idle, only when they have a hitbox out (example). To be more specific, he can hit them with flick, obviously. But they won't actually trigger flick unless they're hitting Potemkin at that moment. It looks pretty tough for a Potemkin player to do consistently.

If boxes clash with a projectile while being thrown, they stick around but take 1 hit worth of damage (example).

5H counts as airborne. In the example, she doesn't get hit by Slidehead at the tail-end of 5H's animation.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

I'm somewhat surprised the servants attacking triggers the flick effect but I guess it makes sense. In terms of being able to consistently flick them, I think the interval/rhythm that servants attack in is something that Potemkin players could use to improve the accuracy of the timing of their flicks in the long run but we'll have to wait and see.

Also, seems like Tsujikawa currently has a 15 dan Jack-O (tweet). So, in terms of notable players we've seen playing the character, we have:

• Daiji
• Koichi
• Sharon
• Tsujikawa

Not sure, who'll end up staying with her in the long run but it's nice to see a good number of people trying her out right now.

[Nobus3r1]

This may be kind of obvious but having just binge watched the Jack-O video thread it seems like a really good idea if one is playing against her to pick a color for your character that's as different from hers as possible so that you don't blend into a mob of servants.

[Zouf]

I thought she was weak at first, but the more I see her, the more I think she might be too strong.

In any case she looks really fun to play. I'm hesitant to main her. Ky is kinda plain (even though i like him a lot)

Is it me or her Fireball super is invincible? Looks kinda broken...

Edited September 7, 2015 by Zouf

[The Badgerine]

I thought she was weak at first, but the more I see her, the more I think she might be too strong.

In any case she looks really fun to play. I'm hesitant to main her. Ky is kinda plain (even though i like him a lot)

Is it me or her Fireball super is invincible? Looks kinda broken...

Nah, I've seen her get hit out of it. But the projectile comes out regardless., so it seems real useful for forcing the opponent to block and making it your turn, or just for getting some breathing room.

On a different note, her matchup vs Axl seems ridiculously difficult. Rensen and Sparrowhawk Stance demolish her houses and keep Jack-O away at the same time. The Faust matchup doesn't look too hot either.

[TD]

With the crazy chip damage  on sparrowhawk, it killing ghosts and completely stopping jack o, theres no reason not to use it lol. At least in the faust matchup she can low profile f.S with 3c

[RurouniLoneWolf]

eh, I think you guys are reading too much into week 1/2 Jack-O play. It just seemed like Tsujikawa didn't know how to handle Sparrowhawk stance at first. He was able to make the necessary adjustments later on in the casuals and was able to beat the Axl pretty convincingly.

[brningpyre]

I can see Sparrowhawk being a bit frustrating for Jack-O' (Axl main here), but I'm with Rurouni. "Just-Block -> 2P/5P" should be able to handle it the same way other characters do, but it'll take some time to get used to. Axl won't want to use Sparrowhawk into active servants, since he'll probably just get hit out of it.

The bad parts of the Axl matchup are (or will be) Rensen ([4]6S), 2H, and 3P.

[brningpyre]

Here's an example of the FED height glitch that's being patched out: http://www.twitch.tv/joniosan/v/15174547?t=3h52m9s

 

[Eshi]

eh, I think you guys are reading too much into week 1/2 Jack-O play. It just seemed like Tsujikawa didn't know how to handle Sparrowhawk stance at first. He was able to make the necessary adjustments later on in the casuals and was able to beat the Axl pretty convincingly.

he won 1 match after the Axl made a ton of execution mistakes & kept doing Sparrowhawk Stance at unsafe distances. Then they played again and Tsujikawa got blown up by Sparrowhawk Stance, again. Tsuji demonstrates plenty of ways to handle it; he punished bad spacing most of the time and kept predicting with 2P/5K to hit his extended hurtbox. Let's not downplay the matches.

 

I do agree with the larger problem being that Axl's huge normals make it impossible to put out bags in neutral, forcing her to approach cautiously or make 50/50 guesses. Most Axl match-ups are like that though and her movement isn't limited like I-No or Potemkin. Maybe 6-4.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Eshi

[RurouniLoneWolf]

he won 1 match after the Axl made a ton of execution mistakes & kept doing Sparrowhawk Stance at unsafe distances. Then they played again and Tsujikawa got blown up by Sparrowhawk Stance, again. Tsuji demonstrates plenty of ways to handle it; he punished bad spacing most of the time and kept predicting with 2P/5K to hit his extended hurtbox. Let's not downplay the matches.

I wouldn't say I'm downplaying the matches. I would say I'm being realistic. The footage is from 1 week after Revelator released. Jack-O players are still trying to figure out the character and probably haven't even thought too deeply about how to approach specific MUs at all. I don't really it's worth talking about MUs being good or bad based on this footage. But since I'm the only one who feels that way, I'll just keep my mouth shut from here on out. 

[Eshi]

Is it worth discussing anything from week 1 revelator footage then? Combos, setups, all of it is subject to change as the game develops past such an early stage. And yet here we are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brningpyre]

Also, seems like Tsujikawa currently has a 15 dan Jack-O (tweet). So, in terms of notable players we've seen playing the character, we have:

• Daiji
• Koichi
• Sharon
• Tsujikawa

Not sure, who'll end up staying with her in the long run but it's nice to see a good number of people trying her out right now.

Seems like Koichi has more or less gone back to I-No, but TORI has been playing quite well, including that all-kill on Nakamura/FAB/Nage last week.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Is it worth discussing anything from week 1 revelator footage then? Combos, setups, all of it is subject to change as the game develops past such an early stage. And yet here we are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There's plenty of things you can discuss. Byrningpyre almost filled an entire page of this thread with things. He has made a lot of great observations about very specific things and focused conversation around that. Trying to have a discussion about how good or bad MUs are when we don't even have a good understanding of what her ideal gameplan is in general, let alone for specific MUs, is really just :S

Seems like Koichi has more or less gone back to I-No, but TORI has been playing quite well, including that all-kill on Nakamura/FAB/Nage last week.

Has he? I noticed he was back to playing her in the 3on3 I was watching earlier but I was hoping he was still trying her out in casuals. Oh well. I kind of got the feeling he was just messing around with the character to get a feel for her so I'm not too surprised this happened. Hopefully, he'll give her a shot again when she has been developed. Also, I need to get around to watching those TORI matches. I hope he keeps doing well. He seems like our best bet to get frequent Jack-O footage from Mikado at the moment.

EDIT: Also, on the topic of people playing this character, I forgot to mention that I heard Denpa was playing Jack-O too. No idea what arcade he frequents though so I'm not sure how often we'll see footage of him.

Edited September 10, 2015 by RurouniLoneWolf

[plainblane]

Ok, this has nothing to do with her gameplay but I feel the official name of her ghosts should be "Chibi base buddies".

[TD]

Uh... Cute, but "servants from hell" definitely seem more fitting lol

in the axlmatchup it seems getting a ghost behind the chain-slinging Brit is best since there isn't much in the way of stopping them behind him. So when it's possible pickup- throw will help in the long run (not really short term).

 

shes so momentum based and while it's easy to end her momentum it also looks very difficult as well if that makes sense lol. Obligatory good matchup vs pot. Poor pot.

 

i don't know if it's just me but her 2s (vertical chain ball kick) looks like it's going to trade with a lot of stuff

[The Badgerine]

There's plenty of things you can discuss. Byrningpyre almost filled an entire page of this thread with things. He has made a lot of great observations about very specific things and focused conversation around that. Trying to have a discussion about how good or bad MUs are when we don't even have a good understanding of what her ideal gameplan is in general, let alone for specific MUs, is really just :S

I mean...I have a general idea what her gameplan might be (knockdown, plant houses, stay at mid-range where your 3HS can hit and be annoying in general), and I wasn't claiming anything to be concrete either. All I said was "the Axl matchup looks bad". Can it change? Absolutely, but as it stands now, and from my understanding of her, I simply made an observation that she might have trouble with him, which is worrying for me since I'm super stoked to play her when REV hits consoles. But if it bothers you that much, I'll drop MU talk for now. After all, I still see where you're coming from. (I recall myself being one of the folks who thought Ramlethal would be bad when we first saw her in SIGN 1.0, look how that turned  out)

[Tokkan]

Ok, this has nothing to do with her gameplay but I feel the official name of her ghosts should be "Chibi base buddies".

Uh... Cute, but "servants from hell" definitely seem more fitting lol

The official naming is "Ghosts" for the houses and "Servants" for the guys that come out of them.

Don't ask me why it's the houses that are the "Ghosts" and not the servants. Pachi was specifically calling the houses "Ghosts" and the servants... well... "Servants" in the 4Gamer video. Plus "Pick Up Ghost" (2P near one of them) picks up the houses and not the servants and "Recover All Ghosts" (P after 22H) only recovers the houses and leaves the servants out on the field to keep attacking.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Tokkan

[The Badgerine]

The official naming is "Ghosts" for the houses and "Servants" for the guys that come out of them.

Don't ask me what it's the houses that are the "Ghosts" and not the servants. Pachi was specifically calling the houses "Ghosts" and the servants... well... "Servants" in the 4Gamer video. Plus "Pick Up Ghost" (2P near one of them) picks up the houses and not the servants and "Recover All Ghosts" (P after 22H) only recovers the houses and leaves the servants out on the field to keep attacking.

I'm fairly sure that comes from Overture. In Overture, the command points that your Servants came out from were called Ghosts.

[brningpyre]

 I feel like it's fine to discuss matchups at this point, as long as you're using concrete examples rather than just generalizations, and that you're taking everything with a huge grain of salt. It's interesting and fun to talk about, but everything's fairly early.

If anyone finds any notes from Japanese players trying stuff out from Jack-O', I think that'd be fairly interesting, and worth discussing.

in the axlmatchup it seems getting a ghost behind the chain-slinging Brit is best since there isn't much in the way of stopping them behind him. So when it's possible pickup- throw will help in the long run (not really short term).

Axl has several moves (like Rensen and 5H) that hit slightly behind him. If he's on top of a box, he can destroy it while throwing out some pressure (though he'd have to be careful the Jack-O' doesn't just IAD over his Rensen, for example). Other players (like Nage) have simply IAD'd backwards to kill the box and let Jack-O' wake up, or gone for shorter pressure strings before backing off to deal with the servants.

Many of the good Japanese players I've seen (at least out of Mikado) have started to prioritize killing the ghosts, rather than going in on Jack-O' with ghosts still out. For characters like Ky, Venom, and Zato, who have more lengthy block pressure, it's essential to get those out of the way, in case the Jack-O' manages to block for a couple of seconds and gets saved by her servants.

Killing the ghosts is a lot like opening chests in M.O.M. mode - especially how you only get 1 hit if you do multiple hits in too short of an interval. Even the size is similar, but videos suggest the ghosts have a larger hurtbox than the M.O.M. chests. Another Jack-O' thing from M.O.M. mode is Aigis Field, which was an item you could use. It looks a bit different, but I believe it functions similarly. So if you want to mess around with similar things, you can do it right now in normal Xrd - I wouldn't be surprised if the mechanics are fairly similar.

Edited September 11, 2015 by brningpyre

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Kedako, my May Hero, got damage values for Jack-O and Johnny's moves. Greatfernman has updated his translation of the rundown of Jack-O's moves to include these damage values. He also added info on the startup frames of each move from another source.

Here's Greatfernman's rundown again for those who don't remember the link (Shoutouts to Greatfernman gathering all this useful info)

Interesting observations:

• 6K is 24 frames of startup. People should probably be able to react to it every now and then with time and experience. Varying our pressure wisely can help here though. It just that Clock Up Lancer oki > go for 50/50 might not be as good as I was hoping it would be. Oh well. 
• 6D/j.6D with tension is 18 frames of startup while the tensionless version is 23 frames of startup
• j.D's damage is 24 per fireball. So tension version is 24x3. Good damage.
• Seems like both tension and tensionless 2D have 1f strike invuln though this note has a question mark at the end. I'm curious if it's really just strike invuln though. Could've sworn I saw Tori 2D through Zato's drill to try and get out of an unblockable setup (Spoiler Alert: It didn't work, lol). Guess there's more testing to be done on this one
• The Knights damage scaled with level. Level 1 = 10, Level 2 = 15 and Level 3 = 30. 
• The Lancer's damage doesn't scale with level but as we all know, he does more hits per level. Each hit does 10 damage and apparently at Level 3, he does 4 hits
• The Magician's projectile's damage does not scale with level. It just stays a consistent 10. 
• Throwing the ghosts deals 35 damage for both ground and air version. 
• Explosions damage goes up by level. The damage dealt by exploding ghosts is also higher than exploding servants. Level 1 Ghosts deal 50 damage and peak at 80 damage at Level 3 while Level 1 Servants deal 30 damage and peak at 60 damage at Level 3
• Hmmm, interesting. Forever Elysian Driver (360P) was originally stated as something you couldn't jump out of post super flash but it seems like it was found that there are actually 3 frames of startup after the super flash so people should be able to jump out of it on reaction to the super flash. That's disappointing but it's comboable on hit so it might redeem itself in combos in the future. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by RurouniLoneWolf

[brningpyre]

Does that mean it's not throw invulnerable? Do you know what frame it's airborne on?

2D being throwable on startup would really suck.