Sin vs Faust

[Zephyrion22]

 This is the thread to discuss about the Sin vs Faust Match-up. A quick overview will be made available once players from both sides give sufficient info

 

Sin vs Faust

-Round start

-Neutral

Sin's efficient moves against Faust and Faust's possible answers

-236H (Beak Driver) is useful to control space and playing the footsies game. It can be baited and punished by Faust's 41236S (Scalpel Thrust), or preemptively stuffed with a well-spaced Love bag (j.P)

-Elk Hunt goes under f.S and 41236S, but loses to Faust's 2K FD cancel j.K or 2H

What tools you shouldn't use, or use sparingly against him

Faust's efficient moves against Sin and Sin's possible answers

-f.S,41236S and 2H can force Sin out of his ideal range. Sin can Elk Hunt(236K) under f.S and 41236S

-Item throws along with the aforementioned tool will force Sin to be very careful wih his approaches. answers depends on item thrown

-Faust air normals with/without FD cancel will force Sin to focus on ground game and punish him whenever he takes the battle to the air. Sin  can air 236H through Love bags,

What tools you shouldn't use or use sparingly against him

 

-Offense/Defense

discuss what works or doesn"t work for Sin against Faust when  pressuring or on wake-up, and Faust's defensive options that are useful  in this Match-up

-Sin can use his  high/low mixups quite freely against Faust because of his poor defensive options. In return Faust can AA Sin easily with his moves

discuss what works or doesn't work for Chipp against Sin when pressuring or on wake-up, and Sin's  defensive options options that are useful or in this Match-up

 

Misc Info

Faust crouching animation forces Sin's 6H to whiff

Edited October 2, 2015 by Zephyrion22

[KentoHardRok]

So there used to be a lot of good information in all of these threads... 

so to start off I guess my experience. Last tournament I went to I spent some time playing against Elvenshadow and learned a few things about faust. He has a nasty overhead wakeup option with is 2K>FD cancel. It crosses you up and he can attack quickly too. His crazy hitbox also make you whiff a lot of basic combos so its a good idea to go to the lab and get combos specifically for characters like him. 

Most Faust players take to the air more often than not. Although he is slow, in the air he has a lot of options it seems. Beak Driver works well but looses to Fausts Scalpel... That mid screen pressure is where I feel comfortable. Not jumping in as much but sticking to the ground so you can react to his items just as fast as he does  and air beak driver to get him out of the sky. 

[www.keeponrock.in]

In the air, Faust's options are mainly: bag, drill and FD cancel. Sin can use beak driver to blow up bags and drills need to be spaced close and above Sin to avoid beak driver. FD cancelling seems to be very very useful in case Sin slides. If Faust FD cancels over a slide, it's very easy to punish with JK. I believe Sin can also slide under fishing pole, so strings like f.S-fishing pole can be countered on a good read.

[zissou]

I didn’t know (FDC) j.K could beat Sin’s slide- I need to try it out in training mode. Faust really needs to scare Sin off slide since it wrecks f.S and rerere for free. I’d found the 2P could stuff it, but j.K might be safer/more reliable. 

Sin’s overhead special is really good for knocking Faust out of the sky, which is a strong tool also. On the flipside, Faust has a super easy time punishing Sin eating- keeping a close eye on his calories and doing raw rerere, 2HS (CH) rerere, or f.S (CH) pogo are all long range punishes you can use. I like to burst if Sin is nearly out of calories when lands a hit so that he can’t eat for free.

[KentoHardRok]

Eating for a Sin player usually isn't a problem. He doesn't loose his command hops and if he has 50% meter he has a ton of options if he ever gets to the point of no calories. If your playing a sin that gets into that Hunger state, it should be an easy win, but most Sins can avoid it pretty easily. keepon, Fausts j.HS if done low, can really keep sin out of the air as well sins its got great reach, let alone universal options like air throw. 

Sins Overhead (bull bash) is really slow on startup and is pretty easy to jump over. Just mind your distance because it reaches really far. It doesn't touch projectiles so if he does it and you jump up and throw a bag, Sin will eat some damage. Playing as sin I feel like the best option is to get in and stay in close. Although Sin's mixups are pretty slow, Faust doesn't have much of an answer for sins pressure other than universal options like burst, reject, etc. 

[www.keeponrock.in]

I actually find it pretty hard to punish Sin for eating, since I'm usually too far. If I really really want to punish him for eating, what I'll do is I'll YRC before using f.S. That usually makes it in time and might even make Sin mess up cancelling eat into YRC.

FDC JH is probably really good, but sometimes I think it might be better to not play the JH vs air beak driver game, just because I don't want to get put into the corner immediately if I lose and all I get if I win is one move.

For bull bash, I think you can time 5D to make it whiff, but I haven't really practiced that since I don't see bull bash that often.

I think you're right about Sin's pressure though. Faust's 5D and crawl don't help much here, since everything is very active or he's using moves that hit crawl like slide. Maybe against JD mix-ups they might be useful though. Sin needs to cancel JD into J214S whatever that move is called so if you make it whiff he'll fly up. lol

[Killey]

Sin can be content with just playing a solid ground game and not taking to the air. That's generally his game plan in most match ups anyways since his ground game is really strong but his air-to-air and air-to-ground game is lacking. Elk Hunt low profiles Faust f.S and Scalpel Pull (41236K) but loses to Faust 2HS, TK Drill, or Paper Bag (j,236P) if any of these are timed correctly. Both sides have to think about when and where to use those tools but generally Sin's Elk Hunt forces Faust to think more about his neutral. Sin's Beak Driver (236HS) is also a solid ground tool with good range and a very good hitbox that can contest with Faust's normals; however, whiffing it in Faust's face is bad. 

Sin 214S (Bull Bash) can be used to control air space because of its range and large hit box; it's probably used more for that purpose than it's overhead properties due to its slow start up. Faust has to be careful with the spacing of Bag (j.236P) because it can get blown up by Bull Bash and the subsequent counter hit combo is a lot of damage. You can Blitz Shield Bull Bash on reaction but then you have to be aware if Sin has 25% meter because he can YRC it to bait and punish the Blitz Shield attempt.

Post knockdown from Sin, he can run up and make you guess between 2K/2S/2D, instant j.D overhead, or his DP - Hawk Baker (623S). The Hawk Baker is mostly a throw bait but also beats wake up buttons and is a low risk option because he can cancel into Elk Hunt (236K) and then transition into his pressure game. Wake up throw will beat the low option unless they space it outside of the throw range but it becomes too telegraphed and loses the fear of the other two options. Wake up throw will also beat the instant j.D overhead because you'll get 5HS instead and hit Sin out of the air.

Sin's got a good throw game as well and with 50 tension it leads into huge damage anywhere on the screen. The basic throw game is incorporated into his pressure/frame trap game and can also lead into instant j.D overheads. He can also use Elk Hunt YRC to set it up as well so that's something to be aware of.

Corner throw, RC, 214S xx 236[HS], etc... is a common burst bait combo starter. If they burst right after 214S Sin is out of range, and since he's charging 236[HS] for the combo anyways the whiffed burst gives him a 236[HS] unscaled starter. Even bursting at the 236[HS] won't work since he's still out of range. You'll have to hold onto the burst until he pogos in to continue the combo and that also has a few layers of burst bait possibilities but at least the Sin player will have to make the read.

Here's also a few Japanese Sin vs Faust matches to use as references for both sides. First one is Evo2015 Dogura vs Nage and the rest are various Mikado clips of Zadi vs Nage & Gyouza. The last video I linked is from GGXrd Revelator but there wasn't many balance changes to either character and besides the new system mechanics the match up still remains relatively the same.

 

 

[Ryyudo]

I've gotten to play/study this match up a lot more lately, as Faust.  Couple things I noticed:

 

- For some reason blocked 2P, 2HS frame trap catches multiple Sin players.  I don't know what the Sin players are gunning for, but it seems to be consistent in both videos and in matches.  It's also good, because 2P, 2P, 2HS Scalpel/Item will push Sin out a decent amount to his range where he has to make a more committed play.

 

- One thing I've spotted in a lot of videos is Faust using Scalpel Pull at 3/4s+ screen range.  After messing around with it in matches afterward, I feel the reasons for this are two-fold:

1. It forces a guessing game with Sin against his Beak Driver (or 6P, but most seem to try for Beak Driver).  Which means he's using resources for Beak Driver while you're dilly-dallying and throwing items and faux-motions to bait Beak Drivers out.  If he gets a good jump, you have YRC to punish as his air-to-ground game is lacking when raw.  So suggest doing this with 25+ meter.

2. Beak Driver seems to lose pretty often to scalpel unless timed super well.  Which means you get a free scalpel pull combo or free harass keeping Sin fullscreen.  If he hits you with Beak Driver, it sucks, but it's not the end of the world necessarily either because he has some ground to cover and doesn't have AMAZING oki.  Once again, he was using resources, he might even choose to eat depending on the necessity.  Keep your eye on that.

 

Additionally, at 3/4+s screen, Sin might go for stuffing his face.  As Keeponrockin said, if you spot it: YRC punish (or you can force their YRC too).  As Homer J. Simpson once said: That's good!

I noted the 3/4+s screen.  This is because any closer and the slide move becomes the go-to solution instead of Beak Driver.  And as Homer J. Simpson once said: That's bad...

 

- Japanese Fausts seem to spend a lot of time above Sin on his wake-up.  I figure it's to mess up/discourage DP use.  This is something I haven't experimented much with yet though.

 

... That's bad.

[drzero7]

as a Sin player, I checked to see here what Im lacking against Faust mu, and as I thought, I believe Faust wins this matchup overall. (I knew it, Beak Driver gets murdered by Faust pretty easily) So I should use slide more to low profile under (But watch out for FDC j.K) Not too sure about Sin's air Beak Driver. Yeah it can beat bags  and drills but I'm having prob with Faust' jH which I think Sin doesn't have any good answers unless Im missing something. 

[dinotail]

A few notes I have for this matchup from a Faust player's perspective:

-Slide into 5S loses to:
   -5P and 5K on regular block
   -2S/cS on instant block
-Slide into 2S loses to:
   -5P on regular block
   -2S/cS on IB
-Slide into 2K loses to:
   -Low blitz and super on regular block
   -cS and 5P on IB. Trades with 2S on IB.

-Slide into delayed DP loses to:
   -Jump back drill (not instant).

Conclusion:

Best option is to IB and mash S. If you are afraid of the DP option, IBing the slide and doing jump back drill gives a minimal punish in most situations.

-In neutral favor 2HS and scalpull over fS.