zissou

Is there going to be any reason to do up dust over side in revelator?

This is an annoying MU for Faust. Rifle is really good in this MU. I originally thought that door teleport might be an option to stop rifle stance (not knowing the frame data), but it seems like perfect reloading means Elph will hit Faust out of start-up every time. Watching Nage play against her, it seems like jumping out is the most reliable option (keeping in mind you have to FD to block shots in the air)? Superjumping is good because you can go above maximum crosshair height and airdash forward and/or bomb bag. He also does dust YRC to use the invul to avoid the shot, which could be useful.

As Faust against Leo, you mean?

Haha, thanks. I knew you'd mentioned the getting off the pogo version in a previous post, but I didn't include it because I couldn't consistently end it in a knockdown (dummy was able to tech out in the air). Maybe I was missing something?

Made a video about the corner RC extension. I'm sure there are lots of improvements to be made to these combos, but it's a start!

I didn’t know (FDC) j.K could beat Sin’s slide- I need to try it out in training mode. Faust really needs to scare Sin off slide since it wrecks f.S and rerere for free. I’d found the 2P could stuff it, but j.K might be safer/more reliable. Sin’s overhead special is really good for knocking Faust out of the sky, which is a strong tool also. On the flipside, Faust has a super easy time punishing Sin eating- keeping a close eye on his calories and doing raw rerere, 2HS (CH) rerere, or f.S (CH) pogo are all long range punishes you can use. I like to burst if Sin is nearly out of calories when lands a hit so that he can’t eat for free.

I'm wondering if it'll end up being smart to do the item toss mid-combo at all. Of the items that positively affect the combo, you have: Bomb: gives you a significant damage boost Poison: depending on distance you are from the corner and item throw distance randomness, it may or may not make contact. IF it hits them, you get a very significant damage boost. Of the more debatable ones: Hammer: you can adjust the combo to get a hard knockdown and do better damage than usual (gmw (2 hits) > RC > 236P (aerial) > f. S > 236P > 2HS (hammer hits) > pogo > tongue > gmw) but if you don't react in time (just go into pogo after bomb bag hits rather than doing 2HS) you'll get average damage and not even get a hard knockdown. Weight: you can adjust the combo to get a hard knockdown and a little better damage (gmw (2 hits) > RC > 236P (aerial) > f. S > 236P > pogo > weight hits > tongue > gmw) but if you do 2HS after bomb bag instead of directly into pogo, the weight will knock you down. You have to do different combo routes that deviate immediately after item toss depending if it's hammer or weight, which sucks (have to react quickly). Then you have black hole, which I haven't found any way to use to help the combo (best I've found is slightly abbreviating the combo so that black hole doesn't mess it up). Jump pad doesn't (seem?) to give you combo extension but it gives you an unblockable on wake-up. Chibi faust can miss completely, add a tiny amount of damage, or situationally add a bit better damage (at certain spacings you can do tongue > chibi hits > tongue > gmw). I haven't found anything with meteors or oil, and of course donut/chocolate/helium do nothing. I'm mostly debating because hammer can lose you the hard knockdown unless you adjust correctly and it's a very common item. Then again, bomb is also quite common and it's one of the best extensions you get. Hmm...

Haha, my bad- prob best to leave the comment on youtube then. Thanks for linking the vid here anyway!

Vids with annotated player comments like that is very helpful! You maybe don't need quite so much slowdown/pausing (just let the viewer choose when to pause) but that's personal preference. It would also be cool to have the full text of Nage's notes in the description with time stamped links to the appropriate points in the video.

I'm curious what responses I missed. I've read all of your posts since the one I originally responded to and I don't see you acknowledging the things you say you are. You made claims on the page 4 of the thread about Faust's 'awesome recovery' and 'all the benefits of a character who can reach across the entire screen with very little of the drawbacks' but I didn't see you saying 'oh, I see there are ways around Faust's ranged game' or anything like that, which is why I responded to that point. The hurtbox thing is what it is. Lots of weird character-specific combos is a guilty gear thing in general and applies to everybody. If hurtboxes (during combos) were more standardized (though character weight and stuff matters too), it might actually help Faust. As a Faust player, I have combos that only work (or are far more consistent on) other Fausts. I looked at the first page of the Pot combo thread, and there are a bunch of combos that only work on Faust and only a handful of others. You call using his drill his 'shorthop' but it's for specific situations (like against certain low attacks) and is pretty easily anti-aired (it doesn't have some crazy hitbox), and while it can be made safe by cancelling it into GMW, GMW itself is only safe if done below a certain altitude. This means if you block Faust's drill high enough, he has to delay the cancel into GMW until he his low enough for it to be safe, which means there is a gap and you can press a button. Of course, Faust can cancel earlier and catch you pressing said button, but then he's taking a gamble because if you didn't press a button, he's doing the GMW too high to be safe, which means you get a free punish.

I'm saying there is some logical disconnect here. You want Faust nerfs because he is considered high tier- so apparently character tier alone sufficient justification for nerfing. Shouldn't the opposite be true as well? I.e., 'not buffing' because a character is already considered high tier? If someone requested a long list of Zato or Millia buffs, no one actually has to address that person's points. The only refutation you need is "those characters are already the best in the game." Since you didn't respond to the stuff about the weaknesses you can exploit in Faust's ranged game, I guess I can assume you agree with what I was saying? Also, 6HS acting as an anti-air is a happy accident at best, and 5D is not an anti-air either- not sure why you keep bringing it up.

Some people find Faust annoying to fight, but more people aren’t complaining about him because while he’s clearly very strong, he certainly isn’t the best character in the game, and all told, the game is pretty well-balanced. All of his screen control carries some risk, and everyone has answers to anything predictable Faust might do. Any character with a conventional anti-air 6P can use it to beat Faust’s f.S. Lot’s of characters can low profile f.S to make it whiff or even go under and punish it (Sol’s grand viper, for example). f.S also has 10 frames of startup and 18 frames of recovery- if you whiff, that’s a big commitment. 2HS is another long reaching move, but it’s even more of a commitment with a 14 frame start-up and a 25 frame recovery. If somebody decided to jump in on you or IAD, Faust is fucked (or at least forced to YRC to avoid getting wrecked). You also mentioned rerere, which is even a bigger commitment than 2HS, so again, it’s very risky to throw out in neutral (and the scalpel has a hurtbox- Slayer can 6P you out of it, etc.) You mention his ‘5’ anti-airs, and Faust has very strong anti-airs, but this also means the Faust player has to think and know which anti-air to use in what situation (5K to beat IAD, 6P for a more conventional jump in, etc.). Some of the more reliable ways to get items on screen is canceling his far-reaching normals into item toss. As I explained above, all of those moves can be countered in various ways. If Faust just does raw item toss, he’s taking a risk. Between startup and recovery, item toss takes 23 frames, so unless your opponent is quite far away, you’re taking a risk. You’re choosing to spend 23 frames doing nothing to roll the dice on an item that may help you later. It’s a trade off- 23 frames of vulnerability for the possibility of a benefit later. Closing note- you specifically reference Faust being able to “rank so high in tiers” when he’s considered to be the same tier as Sol by many strong players. Why do you accept the tier list as proof of Faust’s strength yet completely ignore it when asking for Sol buffs?

Choosing two characters generally considered to be in the same tier and asking for endless buffs for one and nerfs for the other is pretty genius trolling.

Yes! Thanks for the hard work- I'm excited for more active MU threads in the future.

Made a quick video going over the pogo backwards movement/charged flower combo options in the corner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02SJsY_vNDw

I feel like you're needlessly concerned with complicating the match-up threads. Clearly presented true information does not require knowledge of which of the characters the poster in question plays. "Slayer's 6P counters Faust F.S" requires no special extra information to understand. Of course if the poster instead said "Use your 6P to beat his ranged normals!" it wouldn't necessarily be clear who is who, but that post is shitty and vague to begin with.

Ahh- I suppose that would work too (assuming both links could be made to go to the one thread as you stated). The core idea of a single thread per unique match-up is the most important part, IMO, but since everybody seems to be in agreement on that, now it's just deciding the interface for navigating to the appropriate thread. Part of that will just depend on what's technologically feasible- I'm not sure which of the ideas proposed so far are possible/practical to implement.

I'm glad my idea gained some traction! I really believe the core idea of one thread per unique match-up is the best way to get more match-up discussion happening and to get both sides (people who main each of the characters in question for a given match-up) participating. I agree that using a grid to select the match-up you want to discuss could get unwieldy with higher numbers of characters. You could just two drop own boxes where you select the character names as used in the keep on rockin' video database.

Made a video for Faust beginners about drill cancelling! Hopefully this thread is an alright place to put it.

Thanks to you both for all the advice. I think my mistake was that I tend to try and understand a character (at first, at least) in terms of one main/dominant tool. As good as f.S is, it is not the be-all end-all and I think I've been overusing it and ignoring other important Faust tools.

Another match-up question that's not character specific: almost every character has a move to challenge f.S if they know when you're going to do it (6P seems very common). Given this, it seems like it can devolve into a guessing game where: 1) They do 6P or something else with the goal of beating my f.S and I do 2HS and get some damage plus an item toss. 2) They do an IAD or some else to circumvent 2HS and I do f.S to stuff it. If I guess right in either guess, I get the damage off the hit plus an item toss (or if I want to take the risk, I can go for pogo or rerere for the CH combo). If they guess right, they get in, do a lot of damage, and stay in. What am I missing in terms of risk/reward that makes Faust so strong? Let me give a more concrete example: Slayer 6P at a reasonable distance beats every button I have on the ground that's not 2HS. If I successfully 2HS him, I get a bit of damage and an item on screen or I can take a gamble and go for 2HS into rerere instead. If he thinks I'll 2HS, he can IAD in and hit me for free. If I did f.S or wait and do 5K or something, I can stuff the IAD approach though. Either way, it seems like when he guesses correctly, I lose a ton of life and am stuck blocking, whereas when I guess correctly, I get peanuts for damage and an item which may or may not be ass on the screen. What am I missing?

So the plan is throw items in relative safety until you get one that allows you to approach safely?

Faust bros.- I have some general MU/game plan questions (as somebody who only started GG with Xrd). 1. What's my basic game plan against characters with 'standard' projectiles (i.e., stun edge, gun flame, etc.)? By this, I mean one of Faust's main strengths is his space control game with his normals, but it seems like you have to abandon that (on the ground at least) because getting counter-hit by gun flame or whatever is very dangerous. People give advice like "Faust beats Ky because Faust is a better version of Ky (at mid-range space control)"... but how does this pan out when stun edge beats every grounded move I have? 2. What's the way to go during the opening gambit? Obviously, this is character specific, but it seems like deciding to press a button the second the fight starts will work against me as very often as other character's normals at that starting range can beat Faust's consistently.

Having a lot of trouble getting those vid combos to work on certain characters. Easy to do against Faust and worked on Zato (for whatever reason) but I could not get it once on Ky or Slayer. Anybody have ideas for ways to make it more universal?

Bag head nerf is very noticeable. Mettakiri is whatev.