Luminos564 Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 10 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said: Basically as long as people continue to have free will and do stupid things as people are wont to do, everything is doomed. This would explain why all of the worlds the villains wanted to create (Terumi's world of despair where everyone kills each other for his amusement, Relius's world of perfect dolls, Izanami's world of death and Nine's world only for Celica) have no way for people to repeat the process by eliminating free will from the equation. At least, that's my theory, hopefully this makes sense. Right, I forgot Nine called it Central Fiction in the first trailer (though she never explained what it means). But, if removing free will from the equation is the villain's penultimate goal then all their plans/wishes are ultimately hypocritical. Take Terumi's own "Despair World" idea and everyone killing each other for his own amusement. It is an entirely contradictory idea since: A. "Free will" persists within himself because if he didn't have it, then he would not be able to make the choice to enjoy the endless slaughter in the first place. B. If people killing each other off have no "free will" then why would they ever make the choice to kill the person next to them? C. And finally, even if the above people are mindlessly killing each other as the new decree of the world, without "free will" how would they ever feel the "despair" over their situation which should be the end result of Terumi's machinations and desire? You could deconstruct Nine, Relius and even Izanami's endgame plans in a similar fashion as well: Nine: OK so you're removing "free will" and everyone with it, barring from Celica. Which means you're ultimately enforcing your own over the very sister you claim this is all for. Furthermore, if you remove yourself and everyone else from her vicinity, then why would she ever want to live in a stagnant world with no ambition or interaction? Relius: Everyone gets turned into mindless dolls, but then so should he be turned into one. Because otherwise, you're enforcing your will over the husks you created and free will remains. Izanami: Just a classic "kill everything" in sight. But then you must destroy yourself along with everyone else. Because last I checked, Izanami isn't mindless. She too has free will of her own, despite being (supposedly) the manifestation of True Noel's Drive. In other words, the villains are trying to invoke Third Impact and are being really stupid about it.
Ogiga99 Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 29 minutes ago, Luminos564 said: Right, I forgot Nine called it Central Fiction in the first trailer (though she never explained what it means). But, if removing free will from the equation is the villain's penultimate goal then all their plans/wishes are ultimately hypocritical. Take Terumi's own "Despair World" idea and everyone killing each other for his own amusement. It is an entirely contradictory idea since: A. "Free will" persists within himself because if he didn't have it, then he would not be able to make the choice to enjoy the endless slaughter in the first place. B. If people killing each other off have no "free will" then why would they ever make the choice to kill the person next to them? C. And finally, even if the above people are mindlessly killing each other as the new decree of the world, without "free will" how would they ever feel the "despair" over their situation which should be the end result of Terumi's machinations and desire? You could deconstruct Nine, Relius and even Izanami's endgame plans in a similar fashion as well: Nine: OK so you're removing "free will" and everyone with it, barring from Celica. Which means you're ultimately enforcing your own over the very sister you claim this is all for. Furthermore, if you remove yourself and everyone else from her vicinity, then why would she ever want to live in a stagnant world with no ambition or interaction? Relius: Everyone gets turned into mindless dolls, but then so should he be turned into one. Because otherwise, you're enforcing your will over the husks you created and free will remains. Izanami: Just a classic "kill everything" in sight. But then you must destroy yourself along with everyone else. Because last I checked, Izanami isn't mindless. She too has free will of her own, despite being (supposedly) the manifestation of True Noel's Drive. In other words, the villains are trying to invoke Third Impact and are being really stupid about it. I think I explained myself poorly. I didn't mean no free will quite like that, I just meant it in the sense that people would not be able to make the decisions that would lead to the end of the world (trying to access the Boundary and gain the power of god, kill Amaterasu etc.). They want a definitive world that will not be destroyed or overwritten. It doesn't matter whether or not the creators retain their free will since they know not to make the decisions that would lead to a reset and they do want a world that has them enforce their will on it as opposed to leaving the world to it's own devices as The Girl seems to have done (or had to do). Terumi's world doesn't need true free will, in the sense that everyone can have their own thoughts, opinions and morality that they develop based on their experiences, since all he needs is for people to inherently have a desire to kill each other. Even if they did have free will, if they are consumed by despair and violence then they wouldn't even have the chance to rationally experiment with seeking the Boundary and such. Relius wants "perfect dolls" not mindless ones. What exactly this means is unclear but it seems to suggest that he believes that these dolls can have infinite possibilities but still never screw up like people did. Nine is clearly a bit insane so she is enforcing her will on Celica. I can't find exactly where Nine explains her goal so forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure all she cares about is creating a world where she thinks Celica will be happy, and that world will not let people stupidly destroy the world. Izanami isn't just "kill everything" she believes that death is the natural state of the world and wants to return it to such. Why would she have to be mindless now if my point was about the world they intend to create? Whether she will let herself "die" when that happens is unknown but the implication of her being True Noel's Drive is that Izanami is the manifestation of her despair with the world and wants to simply have everything end (hence Rachel's line from the trailer about this needing to be resolved before "she wishes for the destruction of the world"). Maybe free will wasn't the best way to put it. I just meant they want world's where it is impossible for people to screw up so bad that everything needs to restart again and they all have different reasons and methods of trying to accomplish this.
churchblue Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 There must be a reason why Naoto crossover into this world. There will probably be flashbacks in between the main storyline explaining that when console version come out. Es appearing in CF is a surprise. This only means that there are more stories for her. It seems Naoto has to find Es according to his ending. Surely Es wasn't put in CF just for fanservice. I guess in Act III everything is spirally out of control. Hopefully we will find out who Yuki Terumi really is (someone told me he was just using the name).
JustaMaskedFreak Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 I may be wrong about it, but is it only me or Naoto and Amane somehow seems off-topic about the main threat in the story?
Ogiga99 Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 9 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said: I may be wrong about it, but is it only me or Naoto and Amane somehow seems off-topic about the main threat in the story? What do you mean by "off-topic?"
JustaMaskedFreak Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 Sorry, i meant something like out the main spot, y'know. they kinda looks like they are passing by or not being THAT important in the main story. True, Naoto has been important with his OWN path, but it seems he and Amane isn't that involved in the problem with Izanami, Nine, Terumi, Hazama or Relius.
Toxin45 Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 Well Amane is more involved with the master unit and naoto is effecting ragna's existence
Ogiga99 Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 10 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said: Sorry, i meant something like out the main spot, y'know. they kinda looks like they are passing by or not being THAT important in the main story. True, Naoto has been important with his OWN path, but it seems he and Amane isn't that involved in the problem with Izanami, Nine, Terumi, Hazama or Relius. Not sure where you're getting that from since the two are the biggest unknown variables in the plot. Naoto is someone who shouldn't be here but somehow has been chosen to enter the Embryo as an Entitled. Not to mention how his existence directly impacts the main character and those closest to him. Their's also the connection with Raquel who is also an anomaly since she is somehow able to interfere from outside the Embryo. We know nothing about Amane except that's he's an Observer, is immortal (or at least ageless), is somehow immune to Slave Red and is the only person who knows the truth about what happened to bring everyone inside the Embryo. It's true that they are not trying to create a world from their wishes but they are still directly involved with The Girl who is more important than the villains and there's no knowing exactly how these events will tie into the main plot once everything is streamlined in Story Mode. Heck Bang became directly involved with the main plot in CP. It just seems too early to say they're disconnected to me.
JustaMaskedFreak Posted February 9, 2016 Posted February 9, 2016 1 minute ago, Ogiga99 said: Not sure where you're getting that from since the two are the biggest unknown variables in the plot. Naoto is someone who shouldn't be here but somehow has been chosen to enter the Embryo as an Entitled. Not to mention how his existence directly impacts the main character and those closest to him. Their's also the connection with Raquel who is also an anomaly since she is somehow able to interfere from outside the Embryo. We know nothing about Amane except that's he's an Observer, is immortal (or at least ageless), is somehow immune to Slave Red and is the only person who knows the truth about what happened to bring everyone inside the Embryo. It's true that they are not trying to create a world from their wishes but they are still directly involved with The Girl who is more important than the villains and there's no knowing exactly how these events will tie into the main plot once everything is streamlined in Story Mode. Heck Bang became directly involved with the main plot in CP. It just seems too early to say they're disconnected to me. I really have to agree with you about all that stuff, it enlighted me more, kinda interesting when you remember that Raquel could talk with Naoto inside the Embryo, and I didn't mean they are disconnected from they story. Yes, I said they seem not that important, I little dumb from me, when I am just seeing this whole problem with Izanami, Nine and the True Noel, but I fail to see how these two are involved to the latter one, except if you count when Naoto got the Azure and all and Amane was sent to Takamagahara, what is a little weird, but interesting. And even with all this stuff already out and act 3 coming up, the Story Mode can have many more things. True the story is almost at an end, but CP also had an arcade where lot of things happened off from the facts from Story mode, yet they were well connected. Pardon me from my ignorance, partner, somethings are early to jump to conclusions, it is true, but some aren't, yet what I said early it is a little off and I accept it.
Toxin45 Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 So act iii is gonna get big I guess and it seems that from what I see. So Rachel and Izanami are in a middle of a converstation. Jin wants to kill Noel but Kagura dosen't want that,Carl thinking what to do,Izanami getting creepy,Nine is making a black beast,Rachel being a normal girl,valk being mad at Amane,izayoi asking hakumen what to do, lambda vs ignis,and terumi and Hazama are being trolls to each other.
Ogiga99 Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Toxin45 said: So act iii is gonna get big I guess and it seems that from what I see. So Rachel and Izanami are in a middle of a converstation. Jin wants to kill Noel but Kagura dosen't want that,Carl thinking what to do,Izanami getting creepy,Nine is making a black beast,Rachel being a normal girl,valk being mad at Amane,izayoi asking hakumen what to do, lambda vs ignis,and terumi and Hazama are being trolls to each other. What makes you think Nine's creating a Black Beast? I'm pretty sure she just collected all the Nox Nyctores and that black thing is Take-Mikazuchi. All we know the Nox's can do to together is defeat Izanami, stop the distortion in the world caused by True Noel and allow Ragna and Nu to perform a perfect fusion (becoming a Black Beast is an incomplete fusion). She probably wants it for the second reason so she can kill the Master Unit and make her world.
Luminos564 Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 7 hours ago, Ogiga99 said: What makes you think Nine's creating a Black Beast? I'm guessing it's because the Nox themselves are already "mini" Black Beast(s) on their lonesome. I think someone explained it back in CS (might have been Relius but I dunno) that since the Black Beast was more or less impervious to harm, Nine forged the Nox to be like it in order to fight it. A sort of "fight fire with fire" deal. And now she's putting them together for some purpose so I imagine a lot of people are going to come to the conclusion she's making one (Black Beast). Doesn't help that Azrael asked Relius how to make one too and he's in cahoots with both Nine and Izanami. 7 hours ago, Ogiga99 said: All we know the Nox's can do to together is defeat Izanami, stop the distortion in the world caused by True Noel and allow Ragna and Nu to perform a perfect fusion (becoming a Black Beast is an incomplete fusion). She probably wants it for the second reason so she can kill the Master Unit and make her world. Yeah that whole "true merge" business is really...an "odd" thing to pull out at this stage. It's a generally accepted conclusion that Nu-13 merging with Ragna is bad news. In addition, both Relius and Nine commented that Nu-13 is now far weaker than what she used to/should be (given how Izayoi says she's not as terrifying as before and Nine chastising her for not even being able to handle Naoto) and that thinking she could ever pull off said "true merge" is ridiculous. I'm going out on a limb and say this is likely why Relius wants to use Lamb-chops instead, what with her increasing power and shown dominance this time against Nu-13. Question is: keeping that aside, what could a "true merge" even create? It's not "Kusanagi" since we already have that. And it ain't a Black Beast since that's not what the villains want (except Azrael but don't mind him, he likes his punching bags larger than life). So what could it be?
Axiomatic Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, Luminos564 said: Question is: keeping that aside, what could a "true merge" even create? It's not "Kusanagi" since we already have that. And it ain't a Black Beast since that's not what the villains want (except Azrael but don't mind him, he likes his punching bags larger than life). So what could it be? Lots of text,. You've been warned. Short answer: Can't say for certain. Long answer: Lets analyze what we know about the combining of Azure Grimoires and Murakumo units in the story so far in chronological order. We know that there were plans to smelt Mu-12 and an Azure Grimoire in Ibukido during the Ikaruga Civil War, at least according to Nu-13 in CP's climax (the Azure Grimoire here being hinted to be Hazama) where the war was used a pretext to gather souls for the smelting/fusion (I forget the exact line but Hazama/Terumi in CS mentions to "...lots, and lots of souls"). Unfortunately, Take Mikazuchi turned Ibukido into a crater before Sector Seven finished whatever they were doing in CT's intro. Sector Seven I funded the process only thinking they could create a black beast (or just something strong) to oppose the NOL believing whatever lies they were told since they were desperate as evident by how Roy described them from being years behind in terms of technology in Kokonoe's CP Extend story. In CT, we see that several NOL branches had the smelting of Nu-13 being conducted, Ragna having stopped two such experiments (one in Snow Town's city). Now we know that the branch was empty in CT, but there was that clip where Hazama in CS ripped out the souls of all the NOL goobers so I'm a little confused about what step requires the souls. Is just smelting a Murakumo requiring a lot of souls like a shitty toy that goes through a lot of batteries? Both? Also one occurrence in the Timeloops of CT was that Nu-13 and Ragna did fuse, but instead of creating the Black Beast as the pair fell into the cauldron, we got a really unclear sequence invovling Ragna with a monotone talking like a Murakumo unit (don't wish list about Alpha since its super vague). What we do know is that in CS, Hazama gets super excited by the fact Noel already had traces of the Azure and he just had to smelt her into Kusanagi to kill Amatarasu after he broke her mind in her CS story mode. Quote C'mon, you gonna pay attention or not? The Murakumo Unit is incomplete. It needs the power of the Grimoire. The 13th sample wouldn't shut up about it, remember? But this one... this one's different. This thing embodies the TRUE Azure! In summation: Mu-12 already had access to the Azure so no Grimoire fusion required (Getting the pc game with a patch already installed like in a GOTY) "true merge" that Nu-13 wants in CF. Is this the other result we saw in CT that wasn't a Black Beast? (Successfully applying the patch to your pc game) We have the "cauldron gone haywire" fusion of Ragna and Nu-13 in CT which Hazama deemed a failure (installing a game on your pc and corrupting the data when applying a patch) I'll ignore the jackpot, super lucky case of the murakumo having access to the Azure already. Thus the need for a fusion in the first place, as the Murakumo unit needs access to the Azure Grimoire (a portable cauldron to have access to the boundary for some reason either to reach Amatarasu and/or to draw power from The Azure, whatever that really means). Terumi's intention for the whole process was always to create something to kill Amatarasu since we know just how much he loves her and her phenomenon intervention. By Hazama's line about how the Black Beast was a haywire cauldron and how the Black Beast batshit crazy, whatever he had intended for the fusion would have been more stable. He talks about in CS arcade routes about what is the use of a monster you can't control, so the product of the Grimoire and Murakumo unit also needed to be controllable and not a feral creature like the Black Beast. Quote The Black Beast? What the hell would I want with that failed experiment? Yeah, a huge failure. Real pain in the ass to keep the Cauldron under control. But hey, we learned all sorts of shit in the process, so, you know... Yeah, the Cauldron. What, did I mumble? The Cauldron is the Grimoire's original form. It gathers souls to smelt the sword inside its body. That was our little pet - the Beast. "It eats souls, and shits out a sword." So at least from Hazama/Terumi's perspective, we know what SHOULD happen between the fusion process. However, we have seen something that showed Terumi's knowledge about how the two should interact was not perfect. In CS's penultimate climax, we see how Lambda-11 and Ragna undergo a different form of fusion, where Ragna (the Azure Grimoire) absorbs Lambda-11's IDEA engine as she was dying. Now, we don't know if Terumi was putting on a front (it was hinted that he encountered this before and incorporated it into his plan to take over Takamagahara). However, the fact a Murakumo unit and an Azure Grimoire could "fuse" into something other than a Black Beast is established in this moment. Now, all it really gave Ragna was a powerup. I probably shouldn't, but considering the gameplay change to Ragna's BloodKain into BloodKain IDEA, it appears it made Ragna's ability to harness energy from his portable cauldron more stable to the point it no longer hurts him to do so. Again that could just be a balance thing though, but you have to wonder why they bothered to change the name of the technique if it didn't matter at all. Canonically, after this "fusion", Ragna's Azure Grimoire took on a "Similar, but different" existence from Terumi's. For one thing, Ragna's which was a prototype surpassed Terumi's Azure Grimoire (the difference in Kanji might represent that Azure Grimoires with the "Blue" kanji are prototypes while Azure Grimoires with the "Green" kanji are updated versions). What we've seen in all examples so far though, is that any "fusion" results in the combining of the Azure Grimoire wielder and the Murakumo wielder into a single entity. The worst case is they fuse to become the Black Beast. Likewise, the mysterious CT scene seems to have them fuse into something else altogether, and in CS, we see Lambda-11 being fused into Ragna with pretty much no changes other than making him stronger. I would conjecture, based on this that whatever "true merge" Nu-13 wants will result in the sublimation of both her and Ragna into one entity. What that entity becomes seems varied though. The fact she quantify's the merge as "true" appears to indicate she doesn't want the haywire fusion of resulting in a Black Beast though. So that leaves either something we have yet to see or one of the other two possibilities: CT mystery Fusion (seriously, what was up with this back in the day) They become a Kusanagi like Terumi created them for (we have never seen this happen though unless this is actually the CT fusion) CS Ragna absorbing Nu-13 like he did with Lambda-11 Something else that isn't the Black Beast that Mori will reveal in CF story mode or Act 3 A Black Beast since what the bad guys want may not be what she wants, since she does really hate the whole world and talks about destroying together with Ragna when they become one. Its up in the air what Nu really means by a "true merge", but I hope this exercise gives you ideas of what might happen based on what precedents we have seen so far. Edited February 11, 2016 by Axiomatic Forgot something, typo
Yoshirocks92 Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 I hope for that Act III and plus the Story Mode of the console version explains everything especially the story with Noel being the Master Unit herself.
Luminos564 Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 3 hours ago, Axiomatic said: I would conjecture, based on this that whatever "true merge" Nu-13 wants will result in the sublimation of both her and Ragna into one entity. What that entity becomes seems varied though. The fact she quantify's the merge as "true" appears to indicate she doesn't want the haywire fusion of resulting in a Black Beast though. So that leaves either something we have yet to see or one of the other two possibilities: CT mystery Fusion (seriously, what was up with this back in the day) They become a Kusanagi like Terumi created them for (we have never seen this happen though unless this is actually the CT fusion) CS Ragna absorbing Nu-13 like he did with Lambda-11 Something else that isn't the Black Beast that Mori will reveal in CF story mode or Act 3 A Black Beast since what the bad guys want may not be what she wants, since she does really hate the whole world and talks about destroying together with Ragna when they become one. Its up in the air what Nu really means by a "true merge", but I hope this exercise gives you ideas of what might happen based on what precedents we have seen so far. Dayum Axiomatic, that was a pleasant read. So at the least let me address some of the potential outcomes bit by bit. 1. I can't fault you if you do not remember. CT was a pretty long time ago and it had a lot more weirdness to its story, especially for the Bad Endings. However, I fortunately do remember it, for better or for worse. Anyway, the event you are describing is the one where Nu-13, in order to prove a point (which is that Ragna also wants the destruction of the world), transforms into Ragna's Shadow. A fight ensues but it's for naught, as Ragna is merged with her already and starts turning into the Black Beast again. Noel comes along and is naturally scared out of her wits. She opens fire but really that thing might as well be shooting air at it and the beast's maw inches ever closer to her...until it is at arm's reach. The implication is that, due to Noel screaming, the newly formed Black Beast devours her and all this time, Ragna has a front row seat to the chaos. He's also, naturally, NOT happy in the slightest and the ending is more or less reminiscent of Shinji being stuck in Eva-01 as it goes on autopilot to dismember the Angel-infected Eva-03. After all, his mind is trapped while his body goes on to do whatever kind of programming was installed into it (hence the monotone speech). We see something similar happen again in the infamous CS Bad Ending for him, where he overuses the Azure and basically drifts in and out of consciousness, never knowing he turned into a Black Beast and even as he lay dying in Rachel's arms, he doesn't have the ability to tell her not to cry. However, the point I am laboriously trying to get to is that this scenario is likely not the desired outcome. At least, I'd like to think so. 2. Maybe, but we've already have Noel / Mu-12 to fulfill the "Godslayer" role and dammit, I want it to actually matter this game. Geez, CP spent so much time hyping up Noel coming to terms and acquiring the use of that form in order to protect people. Yet the one time it looks like it'll do something, it gets smacked to the ground by a berserk Ragna, fresh from his backstab courtesy of Nu-13. So, my vote's against another "Godslayer"...unless their Kusanagi form is meant for something else entirely. 3. Possible. He already absorbed Lamb-chops before so why not? Though, Lamb-chops was absorbed so Ragna could gain access to the IDEA Engine. What could Nu-13 offer up? Yandere characteristics? 4. I think this might be the highest probable outcome. Mori tends to make stuff up as he moves the story along and whenever he writes himself into a corner he invents new stuff to try and squeeze himself out. 5. Maybe, but Nu-13 has expressed a desire for that "true merge" as soon as it was brought up. It seems lately her need for the merger to occur comes first and the need for destruction is second. I dunno, it's difficult to track the thought process of someone so batshit loopy as her. This all being said, I think it's possible to go back to a more "stable" Black Beast idea, like you mentioned. We know that an Azure holder (Ragna) becomes the Black Beast's body while the Murakumo (Nu-13) is needed to become the heart/core. But don't you think something is missing here? That's right: the "mind". It's little wonder that they go insane as the Black Beast; because it has no reason or thought. Just power and destructive instincts (no doubt from Nu-13). So perhaps another element is needed to stabilize the fusion.
MaximusMurkimus Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 So help me if the game ends with the Black Beast destroying anything and everything again. I'd say BlazBlue has a split chance of ending in a BS way like that.
Axiomatic Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 29 minutes ago, Luminos564 said: Dayum Axiomatic, that was a pleasant read. So at the least let me address some of the potential outcomes bit by bit. 1. I can't fault you if you do not remember. CT was a pretty long time ago and it had a lot more weirdness to its story, especially for the Bad Endings. However, I fortunately do remember it, for better or for worse. Anyway, the event you are describing is the one where Nu-13, in order to prove a point (which is that Ragna also wants the destruction of the world), transforms into Ragna's Shadow. A fight ensues but it's for naught, as Ragna is merged with her already and starts turning into the Black Beast again. ...The implication is that, due to Noel screaming, the newly formed Black Beast devours her and all this time, Ragna has a front row seat to the chaos. He's also, naturally, NOT happy in the slightest...After all, his mind is trapped while his body goes on to do whatever kind of programming was installed into it (hence the monotone speech). We see something similar happen again in the infamous CS Bad Ending for him, where he overuses the Azure and basically drifts in and out of consciousness, never knowing he turned into a Black Beast and even as he lay dying in Rachel's arms, he doesn't even have the ability to tell her not to cry. However, the point I am laboriously trying to get to is that this scenario is likely not the desired outcome. At least, I'd like to think so. Dang, I misremembered the hell out of that CT ending (should have replayed story mode too when I went back to replay all the arcade modes but I hate losing matches on purpose), Luminos564. After reading your summary and watching it again, a new idea came to me: in both instances of the Black Beast transformation (with or without Nu-13 in CT and CS respectively) we notice that Ragna is not consciously destroying everything. There is a trigger of course either when the fusion begins or if he uses the Azure Grimoire too much, but in either case he's not thinking: "Fuck yeah!" but rather he is confused and lethargic of time (in the Phase Shift novels and CP's climax we learn time is convoluted within the body of the beast; maybe because it exists outside of logic? Hell if I know why.) So even when Nu gets to fuse with her man, his "body" may be going along with the motions but his mind isn't. I know this sounds very sexual (hard to avoid with how Nu talks to Ragna), but it really does seem like Nu wants Ragna to be just as engaged and accepting as they begin to exist as one entity. Its like two people hanging out while one is always on their phone rather than maintaining eye contact or reading body language. I'd be very curious to see how Nu talks in Phase Shift 3/4 when Celica enters the Black Beast because I believe that may give a hint as whether my conjecture is right or wrong. I know Alter Memory has the fusion scene shown with Ragna actually accepting becoming one with Nu, but I have no idea if that is how it played out in the CT novelization. This would be REALLY cheesy though if it was true. I haven't a clue how it would change the fusion either. Nu hints at how the fusion between Hazama and Mu in Ibukido wouldn't have worked out though because Mu would not be able to accept Hazama due to Terumi being Terumi. I like your idea about the whole Body/Heart thing but I don't know if they mean heart in the physical or metaphysical sense (My heart beats vs His heart wasn't in it). Gotta wait for Mori to reveal more.
Luminos564 Posted February 11, 2016 Posted February 11, 2016 43 minutes ago, Axiomatic said: So even when Nu gets to fuse with her man, his "body" may be going along with the motions but his mind isn't. I know this sounds very sexual (hard to avoid with how Nu talks to Ragna), but it really does seem like Nu wants Ragna to be just as engaged and accepting as they begin to exist as one entity. Its like two people hanging out while one is always on their phone rather than maintaining eye contact or reading body language. You got a point there. In every instance that we accept as canon, Ragna has never been a willing participant of Nu-13 Hug'n'Fuse.EXE, for obvious reasons. **Side note: nope, we do not talk about Alter Memory unless it is for the QUALITY Terumi faces, so that's out . But it'd make sense why the merger cannot be stable in this regard. Two conflicting thoughts are trying to move as one being. It's not like with Sena, Luna and Trinity, where one side takes over for another. Rather, I propose that this is like Pacific Rim where 2 minds need to work in sync in order to move the mountainous body. Heck, as you yourself noted, in the Noel/Mu-12 and Hazama/Terumi situation, it was the Murakumo that was an unwilling participant due to her still retaining residual memories as "Saya" and because of that, the plan was a no-go. So we could conclude that perhaps there is a connection and that both parties need to be unified/in agreement prior to the fusion or even during it. 43 minutes ago, Axiomatic said: I like your idea about the whole Body/Heart thing but I don't know if they mean heart in the physical or metaphysical sense (My heart beats vs His heart wasn't in it). Gotta wait for Mori to reveal more. I always considered the "heart" to be more like a "power core" that supplies the energy and "life" to the body. The simplest explanation I could think of was like this: the Azure is the "tank" (body) while the Murakumo is the "power source" that allows it to operate.
MaximusMurkimus Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 I actually thought the Alter Memory moment where Ragna says "fuck it" was actually quite poignant and relevant to the story. Who's to say that version of the Black Beast wasn't the most deadly in the past? Since it was the only instance where he was a willing participant, the BB would be at its highest strength. Plus it was a nice little out of character moment for him, where he really felt that defeated and it was inevitable to happen, until Noel/flashback Saya convinced him otherwise and snapped him out of it, one of the few genuinely nice moments in that show.
Toxin45 Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Since Es is getting involve wouldn't that mean the xblaze itself and by extension touya would also get involve.I mean Nobody is still inside the embryo and Raquel was born from it so who is to say that Raquel is the embryo nobody?Also Naoto could be Ragna's old body would explain the similarities and Rachel could be anmestic Es who kidnapped by terumi (who may or may not be sochiro he dad) alongside touya into ragna. I mean think about it original grimore is stated to be the first grimore and the most powerful so why not appear in the grand finale?
Ogiga99 Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 45 minutes ago, Toxin45 said: Since Es is getting involve wouldn't that mean the xblaze itself and by extension touya would also get involve.I mean Nobody is still inside the embryo and Raquel was born from it so who is to say that Raquel is the embryo nobody?Also Naoto could be Ragna's old body would explain the similarities and Rachel could be anmestic Es who kidnapped by terumi (who may or may not be sochiro he dad) alongside touya into ragna. I mean think about it original grimore is stated to be the first grimore and the most powerful so why not appear in the grand finale? Who knows how on earth the connection would work. Presumably it would somehow involve someone getting pulled in to the Embryo like Naoto was (although how human Es in an alternate timeline sealed from the Boundary by the World of Tsukuyomi could get in I have no idea unless somehow Nine's stage being the Phantom Field would affect that). In theory both of them could be brought in but like how Raquel seems to have been brought in alongside Naoto but who knows. Technically all that remain in the Phantom Field is Nobody's soulless empty body that houses the Embryo to automatically maintain the Tsukuyomi so it really can't count as Nobody. Additionally there are multiple Embryos since all an Embryo really is is a crystallization of Azure made from thousands of souls and we've seen the creation of the new Embryo everyone is currently in. Since Nine's stage is supposed to be the Phantom Field, and the Phantom Field needs the Embryo in order to exist, Raquel's Embryo must be different from the Code: Embryo from XBlaze. Terumi cannot be Unomaru. For one thing they have completely different motivations and goals (Terumi believes the world is nothing but despair and should either by dead or filled with only the despair he believes in while Unomaru wants to save the world but believes the only way to do that is to remove free will by using Phenomenon Intervention to prevent anyone from doing anything violent or evil). Also how would Unomaru have previously been in the Susanoo Unit or gained all of the knowledge on Magic, Alchemy, the Boundary and everything else in such a short time (especially the Boundary since the second Unomaru opened it he was killed by Sechs)? The problem with Ragna being the Original Grimoire is that it doesn't fit well with Ragna's Azure Grimoire. The Original Grimoire draws on the power of the Black Beast inside the Boundary (presumably the one that the Azure Shrine Maiden sacrificed herself to seal hundreds of years ago) so if Ragna was the Original Grimoire that would mean that he should be able to turn into a Black Beast without his Azure Grimoire. However even when he becomes one on his own in his CS bad ending the Azure Grimoire is clearly going berserk so it can't just be like Touya becoming a Black Beast. Plus how would a fusion of an Azure Grimoire and a Murakumo Unit Black Beast also be an Original Grimoire that draws on the power of a different Black Beast? Why would Terumi create Rachel when he absolutely hates her? Also Es is a human so how would she become a vampire (and how would this explain why Rachel seems to remember Naoto due to some unknown connection to Raquel)? Finally, I doubt even Mori is cruel enough to do all this when the entire point of Lost: Memories was to give Es a happy ending. If everyone just dies again/gets forced to become the current characters then that isn't very happy. Now I could see her, and maybe Touya as well, being temporarily pulled into the current world in order to save Nine so Es could return the favor by giving Nine her own happy ending but crapping all over Es's happily ever after with Touya, unlikely.
Toxin45 Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Wait so nobody became Es again?But I meant that ragna's soul could be touya's
JustaMaskedFreak Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 I still wanting to understand what would Es do in Central Fiction, it is true that, at the moment, it is a mystery since we don't have enough information, but what kinds of speculation do we have right now?
Axiomatic Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) 32 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said: I still wanting to understand what would Es do in Central Fiction, it is true that, at the moment, it is a mystery since we don't have enough information, but what kinds of speculation do we have right now? We can speculate for days, but if Xblaze: Lost Memories did indeed have Blazblue's Nine and Celica in it, then I think Ogiga99's theory has some merit. Quote Now I could see her, and maybe Touya as well, being temporarily pulled into the current world in order to save Nine so Es could return the favor by giving Nine her own happy ending The way Xblaze turned out, it would not be outside of ES's characterization to try to help Nine/Watashi (still not confirmed even if we consider Amane's astral). I'm a little fuzzy on the details since I binged Lost Memories in a an all-nighter, but I believe ES actually does not have any of her memories from when she was Nobody in the Phantom Field with Watashi and Imouto though, having lost them when she got a new body to be with Touya. If we can have Jin and Hakumen (two copies of the same person even if they have the hax that is the Power of Order) in the world at the same time and the fact Naoto was brought in from Bloodedge Experience, Mori could definitely contrive something to let ES show up to help Nine if our suspicions are correct. Pulling things out of my head, maybe she comes out and gets Nine to accept the Embryo world or the world outside of the Embryo despite whatever Nine saw that made her agree with Terumi of all people? She'd give her talk about the whole fake/real minor theme we have going on in Mori's fiction, like with Ragna and Noel being artificial people. Recall from CP how Ragna was all like who cares if its real or fake so long as it works or we recognize and accept it. Going off that idea, maybe Nine is going through such a crisis since she found out Celica 1.0 died from Terumi and now she's hell bent on keeping Celica 2.0 safe ala big sister complex. The crisis coming from the fact she would blame herself for Celica 1.0's death because she was the one that ultimately busted Terumi out of Clavis' basement in Phase Shift 1. Optionally, she could be dealing with the grief with the fact that Celica 1.0 is dead, all of her negative possessiveness is being directed toward Celica 2.0, like how someone keeps paying the bill on a loved one's phone after they die just so they can hear the voice mail message with their voice on it. Maybe ES and Nine have a friendship power moment about how Celica 2.0 should be more important to Nine than whatever truth she saw and rejecting reality and locking Celica up just like what happened in Xblaze Lost Memories between Watashi and Imouto before? It would echo how Nine should treat Celica 2.0 like how she treated Celica 1.0 rather than denying her wishes in the name of protecting her from everything. I just can't believe we're going through the same character arc again with Nine and Celica 2.0 that Watashi and Imouto went through. Anyway... Dude, its really hard to see what Mori is going to throw at us (if you told me that Saya was a clone/drive of another Noel I would've slapped you a month ago) so this is the best I could do. We really shouldn't speculate though, but that is about the only way I can think of connecting Xblaze to Blazblue since that is one of the only tangible threads we have based on all the circumstantial evidence we've seen between the characters in both stories. Edited February 12, 2016 by Axiomatic Error
Ogiga99 Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 4 hours ago, Toxin45 said: Wait so nobody became Es again?But I meant that ragna's soul could be touya's Yes. When Watashi helped Nobody create Es's human body she needed the power of Nobody's "Phantom Memories" (the memories Nobody had built up as her own person separate from Es). These memories are sent along with Es's memories and soul in the human body, leaving Nobody/Es's Prime Field body with nothing in it but the Embryo itself. When Es activates the Lost Memory: XBlaze, which is powered by the Phantom Memories, she gains those memories back, meaning the human Es has all of both her own memories and Nobody's memories, so in a way she is a fusion of both. We don't really know all that much about how souls work to say that. Where Touya's soul came from/what it actually is is kinda unknown since he was created from Hinata forcing the Original Grimoire to revive the original Touya, which it did by stealing a whole crap load of souls with Soul Eater to turn itself into a new Touya (it's very similar to how we've seen the Nox smelt in That Which Is Inherited). Was his soul randomly chosen from those absorbed, did it come from the Boundary or did the process create a new soul? Who knows but it still makes it unclear if Touya's soul is special at all since it doesn't seem directly connected to the Original Grimoire like his body is (we see the Original Grimoire has a will of it's own that Touya talks to in Code: Embryo) and if it's not special then what would it change if it really is Ragna's soul? Remember Ragna was born/created sometime around 2180, more then 100 years after XBlaze and several decades after Touya would have died. We don't know if someone could hold a soul that long (especially if it was in Japan when it got nuked during the Dark War) in order to use it to create someone, or how/why someone would take Touya's soul. If Touya died his soul would have returned to the Abyss of the Azure along with all the other souls then the odds of his soul being the one that becomes Ragna (especially if Ragna is a Prime Field and had the same soul smelting issues as I mentioned with the Original Grimoire) are infinitesimal. And ultimately, why would it matter if Ragna has Touya's soul? There is no evidence that a soul retains anything from its past life so it wouldn't change anything about Ragna, and it wouldn't effect Es if she shows up since the two people are completely different and it doesn't change her happy life with Touya. 8 minutes ago, Axiomatic said: We can speculate for days, but if Xblaze: Lost Memories did indeed have Blazblue's Nine and Celica in it, then I think Ogiga99's theory has some merit. The way Xblaze turned out, it would not be outside of ES's characterization to try to help Nine/Watashi (still not confirmed even if we consider Amane's astral). I'm a little fuzzy on the details since I binged Lost Memories in a an all-nighter, but I believe ES actually does not have any of her memories from when she was Nobody in the Phantom Field with Watashi and Imouto though, having lost them when she got a new body to be with Touya. If we can have Jin and Hakumen (two copies of the same person even if they have the hax that is the Power of Order) in the world at the same time and the fact Naoto was brought in from Bloodedge Experience, Mori could definitely contrive something to let ES show up to help Nine if our suspicions are correct. Pulling things out of my head, maybe she comes out and gets Nine to accept the Embryo world or the world outside of the Embryo despite whatever Nine saw that made her agree with Terumi of all people? She'd give her talk about the whole fake/real minor theme we have going on in Mori's fiction, like with Ragna and Noel being artificial people. Recall from CP how Ragna was all like who cares if its real or fake so long as it works or we recognize and accept it. Going off that idea, maybe Nine is going through such a crisis since she found out Celica 1.0 died from Terumi and now she's hell bent on keeping Celica 2.0 safe ala big sister complex. The crisis coming from the fact she would blame herself for Celica 1.0's death because she was the one that ultimately busted Terumi out of Clavis' basement in Phase Shift 1. Optionally, she could be dealing with the grief with the fact that Celica 1.0 is dead, all of her negative possessiveness is being directed toward Celica 2.0, like how someone keeps paying the bill on a loved one's phone after they die just so they can hear the voice mail message with their voice on it. Maybe ES and Nine have a friendship power moment about how Celica 2.0 should be more important to Nine than whatever truth she saw and rejecting reality and locking Celica up just like what happened in Xblaze Lost Memories between Watashi and Imouto before? It would echo how Nine should treat Celica 2.0 like how she treated Celica 1.0 rather than denying her wishes in the name of protecting her from everything. I just can't believe we're going through the same character arc again with Nine and Celica 2.0 that Watashi and Imouto went through. Anyway... Dude, its really hard to see what Mori is going to throw at us (if you told me that Saya was a clone/drive of another Noel I would've slapped you a month ago) so this is the best I could do. We really shouldn't speculate though, but that is about the only way I can think of connecting Xblaze to Blazblue since that is one of the only tangible threads we have based on all the circumstantial evidence we've seen between the characters in both stories. I honestly think it's safe to just say Watashi/Imouto and Nine/Celica are the same people (because if not what's the point of introducing them). Aside from the exact same designs, voice actresses, personalities, relationships and powers in terms of Celica's seithr suppression, Watashi's files in the game are supposedly labeled KN (Konoe) and the game trolls you if you try and give Watashi one of Nine's names (it flat out says it is to early for her to be called Nine). This is all before Amane's Astral, the hint of Nine using her XBlaze in her Astral, her stage being the Phantom Field (meaning she would have to have been there before) and Es's appearance telling us XBlaze is probably going to be important. I'd say we are at a situation even more obvious than Phantom=Nine and Tager=Bullet's Captain, everyone knows it and there's no need to wait for Mori to eventually directly say it. As mentioned above, Es does regain Nobody's memories when she uses the Phantom Memories in her XBlaze. Her last scene has her thinking about her first and best friend Watashi and wondering if she could ever meet her again. I don't have anything else to add to your theory but yeah, since it's Mori who knows what the hell is going to happen or how he's going to justify this (and hopefully fix the alternate timeline thing from LM that made no damn sense).
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