Central Fiction Arcade Plot Discussion (spoilers)

[JustaMaskedFreak]

Mori, Mori... What are you preparing to us for the act III boss?

Somehow, I imagine there will be a giant boss like Takemizukachi, however the Amaterasu itself, but it has so many flaws if that happen, I am really starting to think Nine and Izanami will take the lead for final bosses in arcade mode...

[Ogiga99]

18 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

Mori, Mori... What are you preparing to us for the act III boss?

Somehow, I imagine there will be a giant boss like Takemizukachi, however the Amaterasu itself, but it has so many flaws if that happen, I am really starting to think Nine and Izanami will take the lead for final bosses in arcade mode...

I could see a giant boss happening in the console version, but I doubt it would be in Arcade Mode. Aside from True Noel (who if she is the boss I would imagine it would be more that she has to fight in self defense from everyone trying to kill her as opposed to her being the true ultimate villain) I can't think of any good fit but I'm sure Mori has something insane planned.

If we do get a giant boss in the console game, my money is on the Black Beast. Nine, Azrael and Izanami have hinted at wanting it to return in some way and I think having the monster that started all of this be the final opponent (or one of them) would be rather fitting (especially if it can somehow fit into the Story of the World).

[JustaMaskedFreak]

30 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

I could see a giant boss happening in the console version, but I doubt it would be in Arcade Mode. Aside from True Noel (who if she is the boss I would imagine it would be more that she has to fight in self defense from everyone trying to kill her as opposed to her being the true ultimate villain) I can't think of any good fit but I'm sure Mori has something insane planned.

If we do get a giant boss in the console game, my money is on the Black Beast. Nine, Azrael and Izanami have hinted at wanting it to return in some way and I think having the monster that started all of this be the final opponent (or one of them) would be rather fitting (especially if it can somehow fit into the Story of the World).

As much as agree with you about betting all your money in Black Beast, it is kinda unfitting if it is the final boss, plus unless Terumi fuses with Noel to create it, which, yet he wants and refuses to recreate it, which can end in Ragna's death if he fuses or dies. So, Unless Mori goes crazy into this and, somehow, creates a Black Beast by another way.

It seems that the main pieces are set, however, the main ideas about what can happen, in my point of view, has big contradictions and, mainly, about the act III boss.

1- If the final boss is the Black Beast, in the main concept, Ragna will die, contradicting with all the story until now. Rachel saying he still having a part to play yet, Tsubaki needing to kill him, even saving Saya (if this still possible)

2- If the final boss is the True Noel/Amaterasu Unit, it is quite plausible, because many people wants to destroy it and conceive their wishes, or end this madness, but it wouldn't make sense or two from the three main protagonists (Ragna, Noel and Jin), would be against about destroying it.

3- Mori will create another character to fill the spot.

[Yoshirocks92]

30 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

As much as agree with you about betting all your money in Black Beast, it is kinda unfitting if it is the final boss, plus unless Terumi fuses with Noel to create it, which, yet he wants and refuses to recreate it, which can end in Ragna's death if he fuses or dies. So, Unless Mori goes crazy into this and, somehow, creates a Black Beast by another way.

It seems that the main pieces are set, however, the main ideas about what can happen, in my point of view, has big contradictions and, mainly, about the act III boss.

1- If the final boss is the Black Beast, in the main concept, Ragna will die, contradicting with all the story until now. Rachel saying he still having a part to play yet, Tsubaki needing to kill him, even saving Saya (if this still possible)

2- If the final boss is the True Noel/Amaterasu Unit, it is quite plausible, because many people wants to destroy it and conceive their wishes, or end this madness, but it wouldn't make sense or two from the three main protagonists (Ragna, Noel and Jin), would be against about destroying it.

3- Mori will create another character to fill the spot.

Yeah my money is on a new character but who knows right?

[Calamitus]

7 hours ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

Mori, Mori... What are you preparing to us for the act III boss?

Probably nothing. Act 3 preview lacks obvious hint (Act 1 trailer clearly hints at Nine, Act 2 trailer clearly hints at Izanami), also you can look at all those ending images, it looks like all characters fight between themselves rather than against universal threat.

[Vulcan422]

If that's true, it'd be a very fitting echo to how the first 3 games turned out.

 

CT & Act 1: Boss was someone who had a connection to the plot, but wasn't necessarily the main antagonist.

CS & Act 2: Boss was the main antagonist, only to be revealed as part of something bigger.

 

If Act 3 turns out to be like CP, the last boss for each character's story would be their established rival or nemesis.

[Tokkan]

1 hour ago, Calamitus said:

Probably nothing. Act 3 preview lacks obvious hint (Act 1 trailer clearly hints at Nine, Act 2 trailer clearly hints at Izanami), also you can look at all those ending images, it looks like all characters fight between themselves rather than against universal threat.

Characters fighting between themselves rather than single threat is easily explainable, it could easily be just like Act 1 where there are story CGs after the 7th fight. No hints means nothing, CP's initial trailer did not even imply Nu or Mu could be back nor was there even a hint of Izayoi. 

[Luminos564]

On 2/22/2016 at 10:42 PM, Axiomatic said:

I recognize what you're saying about how CF seems to have diverted from the streamline main narrative approach. However, I will contest that BB's story was far better when it was a hot mess of multiple people with different goals like in CT and CS. The core plot of all the BB's has always been a convoluted spectacle, but the characters used to all feel like they mattered and had growth (even if he ran it back with lol Timeloops or lol one of the possibilities of the Continuum Shift). What I am getting at is BB resonated with me more when it was character driven rather than plot driven. Like, rather than everyone fighting the new hotness that is the current act boss why not someone they're connected to? That's just shameless wishlisting though.

Perhaps I should rephrase. When I said the story was a mess because of all these individual desires/motivations, I didn't mean that the "characters having them is a bad thing". Rather my complaint is that all these individual desires, at the very moment, do not have a focal point like before to tie them all together. In CT, everyone and everything wanted to get a shot at Ragna and his pants Azure. It made sense. Sure, almost every single character was after him for a different reason, but because of that he could serve as that very anchor I mentioned that kept the story in check. Similarly in CS, like how everyone was after Ragna before, virtually everybody that mattered was after Noel while the characters that didn't want her were slowly being settled into the 3 sides we got in CP: the Anti-Team Batshit Insane (the "good" guys), Team Batshit Insane (the villains) and Team Undecided (sort your Bullet, Amane, Carl etc. here). And though people are split on her, Celica and by that extension, the Kushinada Lynchpin, served to function as the goals of the story.

In CF though, what exactly is the focus? Act I has people running into Nine, only for her to point them in Izanami's general direction for Act 2, who then in turn points them to Amaterasu and who knows what she'll point them to in Act 3 (maybe the Panda Express food delivery service; never did trust those guys). Admittedly though, this is still the arcade version and I do understand that we've never had a BB arcade mode split into 3 "chapters" so perhaps ASW could be forgiven for this. But as of right now, it feels like a mess without much direction. That isn't to say it cannot be entertaining and the set-pieces are all there to make for a fine grand finale of (Ragna's) story.

But, now that I bring this up, I started feeling a little anxious upon realization that this is the (supposed) end of Ragna's tale. I don't play him in the actual VS. portion of the game but I've grown rather attached to this character over the years. So you can probably imagine that I am not entirely certain of how he could get a satisfying sendoff. I mean, let's be honest: it isn't like he can simply continue to live in whatever world comes about since he's still technically a wanted criminal. And I doubt Mori has the creative capacity (or maybe, desire) to write about him as a long-time soldier/fighter now forced to adapt to a world that no longer needs his battle prowess. So if neither is a very solid career option, then what is?

[JustaMaskedFreak]

6 hours ago, Calamitus said:

Probably nothing. Act 3 preview lacks obvious hint (Act 1 trailer clearly hints at Nine, Act 2 trailer clearly hints at Izanami), also you can look at all those ending images, it looks like all characters fight between themselves rather than against universal threat.

I understand what you mean by that, however it can have some hint later in the act III opening...But this about everyone fight each other is a pretty solid theory, and doesn't have many flaws as True Noel or the Black Beast, relying us for wait the console release to see how this will end.

[Yoshirocks92]

1 hour ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

I understand what you mean by that, however it can have some hint later in the act III opening...But this about everyone fight each other is a pretty solid theory, and doesn't have many flaws as True Noel or the Black Beast, relying us for wait the console release to see how this will end.

Yeah and that's pretty much what we got to wait for so we can see any hints to who could be the boss of Act III.

[Axiomatic]

5 hours ago, Luminos564 said:

Perhaps I should rephrase. When I said the story was a mess because of all these individual desires/motivations, I didn't mean that the "characters having them is a bad thing". Rather my complaint is that all these individual desires, at the very moment, do not have a focal point like before to tie them all together. 

In CF though, what exactly is the focus? Act I has people running into Nine, only for her to point them in Izanami's general direction for Act 2, who then in turn points them to Amaterasu and who knows what she'll point them to in Act 3 (maybe the Panda Express food delivery service; never did trust those guys). Admittedly though, this is still the arcade version and I do understand that we've never had a BB arcade mode split into 3 "chapters" so perhaps ASW could be forgiven for this. But as of right now, it feels like a mess without much direction. That isn't to say it cannot be entertaining and the set-pieces are all there to make for a fine grand finale of (Ragna's) story.

But, now that I bring this up, I started feeling a little anxious upon realization that this is the (supposed) end of Ragna's tale. I don't play him in the actual VS. portion of the game but I've grown rather attached to this character over the years. So you can probably imagine that I am not entirely certain of how he could get a satisfying sendoff. I mean, let's be honest: it isn't like he can simply continue to live in whatever world comes about since he's still technically a wanted criminal. And I doubt Mori has the creative capacity (or maybe, desire) to write about him as a long-time soldier/fighter now forced to adapt to a world that no longer needs his battle prowess. So if neither is a very solid career option, then what is

Sorry I misunderstood.

 

If Mori really wants to irritate people he probably would have gone with the outline:

Act 1 Nine: "Go get Izanami"

Act 2 Izanami: "Go get Amatarasu/True Noel"

Act 3 Amatarasu/True Noel: "Go get Nine"

=o

 

Yeah, realizing Ragna won't be our protagonist anymore hurts a little, even if he may or may not die. Maybe Ragna pulls a Dizzy where someone claims the bounty on his head and he gets to marry Ky which in turn leads to black mail? If Mori decides to go full homage/ripoff on GG, he could write the fact Ragna can't have a normal life as part of the reason the post-Ragna arc starts. Like, someone  (I don't know who maybe one of his haremettes or benefactors like Jubei, Rachel, or Kagura) gets flac and has to do things to hide Ragna just like Ky was forced to become King of Illyria. With how BB has gone though, I'm more inclined for Ragna to get killed off since he has less than 0 Luck in his S.P.E.C.I.A.L. stats. 

 

 

Ragna is definitely going to have to do something about his Azure Grimoire arm though, since its eating his body up and triggers his shift into Black Beast mode; its also the reason so many people wanted to get into his pants for half the story. I think whatever Mori decides to do depends on how he decides to deal with that problem as there are several possibilities:

1. Ragna gets consumed by his arm and becomes what Hakumen and Jin always thought he was as the Black Beast
2. Ragna/someone cuts his arm off and he has to deal with how life will go for him (we go back to having gimped Ragna, AKA Bloodedge)
3. Ragna gets fused with a murakumo (becomes a proper Black Beast or whatever Nu wishes for in their "True Merge")

 What I want to know is whats the deal with the arm having pseudo consciousness. Recall in CT how when Ragna encountered Hakumen, his arm started spasming like it was scared. Was that some kind of reflex from the arm and/or Ragna remembering the CT timeloops by getting trashed by Haku? 

[Luminos564]

2 hours ago, Axiomatic said:

What I want to know is whats the deal with the arm having pseudo consciousness. Recall in CT how when Ragna encountered Hakumen, his arm started spasming like it was scared. Was that some kind of reflex from the arm and/or Ragna remembering the CT timeloops by getting trashed by Haku? 

You're halfway there. While it is true that the arm makes it so that Ragna's soul remembers the injuries he sustains in previous loops and it does indeed remember Hakumen wrecking its shit, recall what that arm was before it was attached to Ragna. That's right, it is from his own, beheaded post-Black Beast corpse. Think about it: the very thing that "isn't supposed to be Ragna's power" came from his own perfectly preserved (thanks to Celica) corpse from a previous incarnation and from the sound of things, it is still alive. Mori certainly has a dark sense of humour to him if nothing else.

[FKGunBlaze]

Just now, Luminos564 said:

You're halfway there. While it is true that the arm makes it so that Ragna's soul remembers the injuries he sustains in previous loops and it does indeed remember Hakumen wrecking its shit, recall what that arm was before it was attached to Ragna. That's right, it is from his own, beheaded post-Black Beast corpse. Think about it: the very thing that "isn't supposed to be Ragna's power" came from his own perfectly preserved (thanks to Celica) corpse from a previous incarnation and from the sound of things, it is still alive. Mori certainly has a dark sense of humour to him if nothing else.

WHAT?

[Ogiga99]

9 hours ago, Luminos564 said:

Perhaps I should rephrase. When I said the story was a mess because of all these individual desires/motivations, I didn't mean that the "characters having them is a bad thing". Rather my complaint is that all these individual desires, at the very moment, do not have a focal point like before to tie them all together. In CT, everyone and everything wanted to get a shot at Ragna and his pants Azure. It made sense. Sure, almost every single character was after him for a different reason, but because of that he could serve as that very anchor I mentioned that kept the story in check. Similarly in CS, like how everyone was after Ragna before, virtually everybody that mattered was after Noel while the characters that didn't want her were slowly being settled into the 3 sides we got in CP: the Anti-Team Batshit Insane (the "good" guys), Team Batshit Insane (the villains) and Team Undecided (sort your Bullet, Amane, Carl etc. here). And though people are split on her, Celica and by that extension, the Kushinada Lynchpin, served to function as the goals of the story.

In CF though, what exactly is the focus? Act I has people running into Nine, only for her to point them in Izanami's general direction for Act 2, who then in turn points them to Amaterasu and who knows what she'll point them to in Act 3 (maybe the Panda Express food delivery service; never did trust those guys). Admittedly though, this is still the arcade version and I do understand that we've never had a BB arcade mode split into 3 "chapters" so perhaps ASW could be forgiven for this. But as of right now, it feels like a mess without much direction. That isn't to say it cannot be entertaining and the set-pieces are all there to make for a fine grand finale of (Ragna's) story.

I’m not sure where you get there not being a focal point from, since there is a very clear one. The focus point is that everyone wants to create a world that grants their individual desires and are searching for the Azure to create the world they wish for (and later have to kill Noel because she keeps pulling rank on them and screwing them over). Act I introduced the worlds that people want to create and sets the characters off on their journey to make them a reality, Act II is the search for the Azure and killing Izanami as the supposed next step, while Act III will supposedly be the Noel witch hunt. The fact that it was split in 3 means it was allowed to breath more and let Nine set up the quest for the Azure and to defeat Izanami since, unlike with searching for the Azure Grimoire, no one would have any idea what they were supposed to do otherwise. Also I’m not sure what makes you think CP had a uniting factor in Acarde Mode, since that was WAY more segmented than anything in CF. You bring up Celica and Kushinada’s Lynchpin as the focal point but both of those rarely factored in Arcade Mode (heck Celica only appeared once in Hazama’s ending). Everyone was looking for something else (Ragna for Noel, Jin Noel and Makoto for Tsubaki, Bang for Tenjo’s legacy, Carl for Relius, Bullet for Kokonoe, Amane for Carl etc.) and they didn’t even have a proper boss character that most people fought. Besides, it is basically impossible to judge any form of story pacing for Arcade Mode since it always has been completely disjointed due to time loops continuum shifts and retcon wars without a way to determine what elements will actually stick.

[Luminos564]

56 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

Besides, it is basically impossible to judge any form of story pacing for Arcade Mode since it always has been completely disjointed due to time loops continuum shifts and retcon wars without a way to determine what elements will actually stick.

Fair point. I'll concede that I was basing my comparisons on the elements from the expanded console Story Mode in CP to the current CF arcade content and that it ultimately isn't a fair comparison. I just personally felt the CF arcade felt more disjointed than before, though upon reflection, this might also be that the arcade mode now has those 3 acts and we only got 2/3rds of it available. So for the time being I shall withdraw my previous statements until we're good and settled in with Act 3. Hope that sounds fair on my part.

I'll also have to tip my hat off to you. I hadn't considered the idea that all these characters wanting their own version of an ideal world to be the focal point of the arcade at least. Thanks for that. 

[churchblue]

I wonder how much older is Naoto than Ragna?

Also, who has a chance to fight par with Nine (other than Relius and Izanami)?

[heavymetalmixer]

19 minutes ago, churchblue said:

I wonder how much older is Naoto than Ragna?

Also, who has a chance to fight par with Nine (other than Relius and Izanami)?

Well, Ragna calls him "kuso gaki" so that would mean that Naoto is younger, and Ragna is 21 years old I think.

[Axiomatic]

2 hours ago, heavymetalmixer said:

Well, Ragna calls him "kuso gaki" so that would mean that Naoto is younger, and Ragna is 21 years old I think.

Sorry if this is bothersome or nitpicky.

 

 

short answer:

He looks 21 (as heavymetalmixer stated) but could be younger since things get complicated with artificial humans. 

 

 

long answer:

I think it is not as simple as that if we factor in several other things. Foremost look at the ages in relation to other things. First, we know that Ragna is supposed to be older than Jin. So if we take everything on face value, then it appears that since Jin entered the Military Academy in 2193 and graduated/entered the war in 2196/2197 he'd be 18ish if they follow the adolescent convention (I think Jin graduated a little early though cause of the Ikaruga war) . That would make Jin 21 in 2200. Ragna, being older would then have to be older than that, but 21 is a good minimum or lowerbound age.

 

However, consider Noel. Noel appears to be in her late teens, but recall she is definitely not as old as she appears:

Noel's consciousness was born 12 25-2194. We do know that Sector Seven started the project to make a Black Beast with Relius Clover's three murakumo units (11,12,13) in 2191. Providing for that, we also can assume her body is at most 9 years old, assuming Relius didn't put them together until the project was approved. Likewise, the murakumo units didn't have consciousnesses until they were smelted, hence there is another complication. Thus, there are three ages we need to consider for artificial humans:

1. How old they look (biological age)
2. When their body was made (chronological age)
3. When their consciousness/identity was formed after the smelting process

Now why is this relevant? As Saya, Jin, and Ragna were rescued from a lab by Jubei when they were little kids and we know that Saya and Ragna are artificial humans, it seems that Jin is also an artificial human as well. For reference the church was attacked in 2192, making Ragna, Jin, and Saya at minimum 8 years old chronologically.  I'm not sure which age  churchblue wanted though. I would presume biological since that is usually synonmous with the other two for natural humans like us. 

 

I do think just based on appearances that Ragna should be about 21 as you pointed out (or in his early twenties), from biological appearances at least. However, as illustrated by the example with Noel, Ragna's chronological age may differ drastically from how old he looks. 

 

 

3 hours ago, churchblue said:

I wonder how much older is Naoto than Ragna?

As demonstrated above, it depends on what age you are referring to.

Biologically: Ragna appears to be older than Naoto, hence as heavymetalmixer pointed out, Ragna refers to Naoto as younger

Chronologically: The jury is still out, but we know at minimum that Naoto is 16 years old in Bloodedge Experienece (assuming the Naoto in CF is the Naoto from Bloodedge Experience since that mark on his chest is REALLY suspicious considering he didn't have it in the novels), so assuming he went from Part 2 to CF after exposition from someone (read: Clavis), he is at bare minimum 16. Ragna, in contrast is at bare minimum 8 in CF. To my knowledge we do not have any dates prior to 2192 for Ragna to place his age.

For normal humans like Naoto, his consciousness was born when his body was, but for artificial humans that may not be the case. We can say though that Ragna's conscious is as old as or even older than his body though. (lets not get into the age of their souls and what not ). So based on my limited knowledge, this is about as much as we can say for certain.

 

No idea if entering the Embryo affected their bodies as well (if you enter from CP to CT era inside the embryo, does your body age back 2 months since Amatarasu would observe you to be that age?).

[Toxin45]

Well relius and valk remembers naoto

[churchblue]

So despite looking younger than Ragna, Naoto is actually older than him, right?

[JustaMaskedFreak]

52 minutes ago, churchblue said:

So despite looking younger than Ragna, Naoto is actually older than him, right?

I guess it is yes and no.

Naoto was mentioned before that he is from a different timeline, which makes him "chronologically" way older than Ragna, if you compare Valk and Relius ages before and now, however, biologically, his body seems to be younger, like Axiomatic and heavymetalmixer said.

[Toxin45]

Maybe it's because of Raquel I mean why else would he come looking for her

[Ogiga99]

Not sure if this is explicitly story related but has anyone seen CF footage of Hazama using The Serpent's Unholy Wrath (the Distortion Drive introduced in CP) or Hungry Darkness of 1000 Souls (his Astral)? Both of those moves have him go into Terumi Mode but Hazama and Terumi are now separate people. I know gameplay and story don't really mix well but I'm curious if they took the time to update the moves accordingly or not (they did take the time to change things like him getting the SIx Heroes theme so they do seem to care about that to some extent).

[FKGunBlaze]

Just now, Ogiga99 said:

Not sure if this is explicitly story related but has anyone seen CF footage of Hazama using The Serpent's Unholy Wrath (the Distortion Drive introduced in CP) or Hungry Darkness of 1000 Souls (his Astral)? Both of those moves have him go into Terumi Mode but Hazama and Terumi are now separate people. I know gameplay and story don't really mix well but I'm curious if they took the time to update the moves accordingly or not (they did take the time to change things like him getting the SIx Heroes theme so they do seem to care about that to some extent).

Still the same so far.

[Ogiga99]

16 minutes ago, GunBlazer said:

Still the same so far.

Spiky hair and everything? Damn. I'll understand and excuse it if Hazama and Terumi do find a way to successfully fuse in Act III or the console version since there would be no reason to put in the effort for new animations that won't be needed permanently but I'm still a bit disappointed.