Central Fiction Arcade Plot Discussion (spoilers)

[JustaMaskedFreak]

4 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

Not sure if this is explicitly story related but has anyone seen CF footage of Hazama using The Serpent's Unholy Wrath (the Distortion Drive introduced in CP) or Hungry Darkness of 1000 Souls (his Astral)? Both of those moves have him go into Terumi Mode but Hazama and Terumi are now separate people. I know gameplay and story don't really mix well but I'm curious if they took the time to update the moves accordingly or not (they did take the time to change things like him getting the SIx Heroes theme so they do seem to care about that to some extent).

The weirder it is the fact that Hazama stills yielding Ouroboros since CP, after Terumi being materialized

[Toxin45]

I know I saw it too could they at least update that?

[Calamitus]

22 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

Not sure if this is explicitly story related but has anyone seen CF footage of Hazama using The Serpent's Unholy Wrath (the Distortion Drive introduced in CP) or Hungry Darkness of 1000 Souls (his Astral)?

 

[Ogiga99]

25 minutes ago, Calamitus said:

 

Actually that is different. Hazama still has his hat on in the victory animation. In CS and CP it's Terumi with the spiky hair after the attack finishes. Kudos to the development team. Also thanks for the find Calamitus.

[JustaMaskedFreak]

4 hours ago, Ogiga99 said:

Actually that is different. Hazama still has his hat on in the victory animation. In CS and CP it's Terumi with the spiky hair after the attack finishes. Kudos to the development team. Also thanks for the find Calamitus.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't most of the powers that Hazama has was conceded by Terumi? If it is correct then, could it mean Hazama will be kinda, powerless, in the story itself?

[Tokkan]

Hazama's entire body is an Azure Grimoire, he should definitely be powerful.

[JustaMaskedFreak]

Does it have any CG showing Haz using Ouroboros? Despite how it shows in gameplay the fact he has it, he got them from Terumi. Unless each one kept one chain to each other, since the JP translation of this Nox is called Snake Pair: Ouroboros.

[Ogiga99]

17 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

Does it have any CG showing Haz using Ouroboros? Despite how it shows in gameplay the fact he has it, he got them from Terumi. Unless each one kept one chain to each other, since the JP translation of this Nox is called Snake Pair: Ouroboros.

Ouroboros in general has always been weird. Terumi had it as soon as he fused with Kazuma but Nine gives it to him after putting him in Mind Eater. In theory Terumi should have hundreds of Ouroboros's, since he would logically get a new one in each time loop, so who knows. One interesting thing is that Terumi uses his Ouroboros very differently and it always has that green energy around it. That might mean he's copying the power of Ouroboros like how he replicates his power as the Black Susano'o in his Astral. It's also possible that a copy was created when Trinity made a new body for Terumi with Muchorin or it might just be another case of "the Embryo did it" like with Noel being separate from Mu or Lambda having her own Murakumo.

[JustaMaskedFreak]

10 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

Ouroboros in general has always been weird. Terumi had it as soon as he fused with Kazuma but Nine gives it to him after putting him in Mind Eater. In theory Terumi should have hundreds of Ouroboros's, since he would logically get a new one in each time loop, so who knows. One interesting thing is that Terumi uses his Ouroboros very differently and it always has that green energy around it. That might mean he's copying the power of Ouroboros like how he replicates his power as the Black Susano'o in his Astral. It's also possible that a copy was created when Trinity made a new body for Terumi with Muchorin or it might just be another case of "the Embryo did it" like with Noel being separate from Mu or Lambda having her own Murakumo.

It sounds more like "the Embryo did it", because analyzing about Terumi powers, he copied back the Susano'o back, he always had the Ouroboros, since Nine's Mind Eater, and his host were Kazuma, which was destroyed later. Hazama worked as a substitute for the first body. If we consider he got a new chain in each time loop it would explain better why Hazana has a lot of chains in his Astral. But it keeps bugging me, since I don't remember Hazama using Ouroboros in the story after Trinity's materialization.

[Axiomatic]

43 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

51 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

Ouroboros in general has always been weird. Terumi had it as soon as he fused with Kazuma but Nine gives it to him after putting him in Mind Eater. In theory Terumi should have hundreds of Ouroboros's, since he would logically get a new one in each time loop, so who knows. One interesting thing is that Terumi uses his Ouroboros very differently and it always has that green energy around it. That might mean he's copying the power of Ouroboros like how he replicates his power as the Black Susano'o in his Astral. It's also possible that a copy was created when Trinity made a new body for Terumi with Muchorin or it might just be another case of "the Embryo did it" like with Noel being separate from Mu or Lambda having her own Murakumo.

It sounds more like "the Embryo did it", because analyzing about Terumi powers, he copied back the Susano'o back, he always had the Ouroboros, since Nine's Mind Eater, and his host were Kazuma, which was destroyed later. Hazama worked as a substitute for the first body. If we consider he got a new chain in each time loop it would explain better why Hazana has a lot of chains in his Astral. But it keeps bugging me, since I don't remember Hazama using Ouroboros in the story after Trinity's materialization.

Two problems I have with your reasoning Ogiga99 and JustaMaskedFreak (I don't mean to be disrespectful or anything) on two specific aspects:

 

1.) Terumi and Hazama both had Ouroboros BEFORE they entered the Embryo (see CP when they were split)

2.) By your notion of timeloops preserving inanimate objects, then that means that there are an infinite number of Susanoo units in the Edge of the Boundary (Japanese:"Hazama") as Hakumen's is really Patrick Swayze in Ghost as he does not have access to his body but can still affect the physical world. So for each timeloop, each heroic sacrifice Hakumen made to drag Terumi with him into the Boundary would place another Hakumen in the Edge. Now, we know that Terumi can easily kill his host body and go ghost mode to travel through dimensions as we saw in CT when he was hanging out in Rachel's bushes or when he took over Takamagahara in CS. Using just the CS example, he would have had to enter the boundary to reach Takamagahra and so why doesn't he just go after one of the Hakumen's in a coma rather than our ghost Hakumen in CF? Hopefully you see the complications with making such a claim. (that means there should be a shitload copies of Ragna's sword as well since Ragna finds a new in Black Beast Ragna when he fights Nu after he gives his to Celica, yet returns to CP's timeline with only one ).

 

In my head, Terumi remembers past timeloops via the whole MK9 route of getting the memories and not by physically transcending time to reach that point in the timeline/multiverse. If he did go physically, he would displace himself like how our Jin displaced embryo Captain Jin in CF. (Don't know why Hakumen and our Jin can coexist, but it probably has to do with obsevation and having active Power of Order [Captain Jin didn't reach the level to unlock the Power of Order buffs]). Someone else would have to elaborate on why Tsubaki and Izayoi are doing this as well. So displacement agrees with your theory but there is no evidence to suggest the proliferation of physical objects like other forms of timetravel fiction. (Boils down to are we discussing Back to the Future vs Groundhog Day/Stargate SG-1 episode where you can go back in time with stuff no problem in the former while only your consciousness goes back in the latter). Rachel definitely made Ragna go Back to the Future in CP, but that was because she had Tsukyomi, which is definitely stronger than any defensive measure Terumi could put together since it is one of the Sankishin. There is evidence for both, so I can't say for certain which is the one Terumi goes through. We also have the whole predicatment that Ragna's time travel adventure "fixed" the messed up timeloop caused by Black Beast Ragna appearing in 2100. Now that the timeloop is "stable", any other attempt to time travel could cause a new paradox or loop,.

 

Go watch "Triangle" (2009) for a timeloop plot that involves object's being 'copied' to previous points in the loop. Its pretty decent and I think adds support to your arguement if others want a more concrete example of what you've described. 

 

I'm all ears if you want to elaborate on the physics of the different types of time travel, but hopefully this exercise illustrates my disdain for the topic being used for explanations. Shit doesn't have a logical basis. Where the hell are the axioms of time travel!?What about the fundamental laws associated with it? You mean its just a plot device? oh...I see....

 

I believe that Ogiga99's other point is a more viable candidate for consideration. Basically the fact he can wield power based on the Susanoo unit without actually having it, especially the precedent that he could also likely do the same thing with a Nox Nyctores with no problem since a Sankishin is definitely more mysterious and otherworldly than a Nox Nyctores. How? No idea.

 

I would like to propose an alternative idea based on the whole Phase Shift business that Ogiga99 was hinting at:

 

what if Hazama has the Nox Nyctores Ouroboros while Terumi has the Legacy Weapon/ancient weapon mentioned in Phase Shift 1. Think like the original Take Mikazuchi or Hiro'hikane (Tomomori's sword). I can't remember the quote off the top of my head, but Terumi drops a comment when he receives Nox Nyctores: Ouroboros from Nine about how its different yet the same as the one he had that killed Tomomori (citation needed). The precedent for such a thing already exists with both Take Mikazuchi being the basis for the other Nox Nyctores and the fact that there is a both a Sorcery/Art for Mind eater and an Armagus spell for Mind Eater (Maladictus Plaga and Opprimo Vinculum). Nevertheless, we know for sure that there are pre-Dark War variants of several weapons/spells that we are familiar in modern Blazblue using just mind eater and Take Mikazuchi. Definitely need verification on the difference between the two mind eater spells though (Nine used the Sorcery one on Terumi while Tsubaki was under the Armagus one). That would explain why each body has one. 

 

Both JustaMaskedFreak's translation of the twin snakes implying Ouroboros was always two chains is definitely viable (why else would you call it Gemini?) as is Ogiga99's thoughts on Trinity accidentally materializing Terumi's body with a copy of Ouroboros from the Dark War. Fucking Muchorin just makes anything possible since it creates matter...I definitely prefer either of these to the "lol timeloop" arguement since as a story telling convention, we see inconsistencies that haven't been elaborated on or justified. 

 

 

 

 

 

Or it could be that Mori didn't bother explaining it just like that whole business with Ragna's sword (was that even resolved?) because Eastern storytelling yadayadayada...That's a really lazy viewpoint though.

 

[Ogiga99]

1 hour ago, Axiomatic said:

Two problems I have with your reasoning Ogiga99 and JustaMaskedFreak (I don't mean to be disrespectful or anything) on two specific aspects:

 

1.) Terumi and Hazama both had Ouroboros BEFORE they entered the Embryo (see CP when they were split)

2.) By your notion of timeloops preserving inanimate objects, then that means that there are an infinite number of Susanoo units in the Edge of the Boundary (Japanese:"Hazama") as Hakumen's is really Patrick Swayze in Ghost as he does not have access to his body but can still affect the physical world. So for each timeloop, each heroic sacrifice Hakumen made to drag Terumi with him into the Boundary would place another Hakumen in the Edge. Now, we know that Terumi can easily kill his host body and go ghost mode to travel through dimensions as we saw in CT when he was hanging out in Rachel's bushes or when he took over Takamagahara in CS. Using just the CS example, he would have had to enter the boundary to reach Takamagahra and so why doesn't he just go after one of the Hakumen's in a coma rather than our ghost Hakumen in CF? Hopefully you see the complications with making such a claim. (that means there should be a shitload copies of Ragna's sword as well since Ragna finds a new in Black Beast Ragna when he fights Nu after he gives his to Celica, yet returns to CP's timeline with only one ).

 

In my head, Terumi remembers past timeloops via the whole MK9 route of getting the memories and not by physically transcending time to reach that point in the timeline/multiverse. If he did go physically, he would displace himself like how our Jin displaced embryo Captain Jin in CF. (Don't know why Hakumen and our Jin can coexist, but it probably has to do with obsevation and having active Power of Order [Captain Jin didn't reach the level to unlock the Power of Order buffs]). Someone else would have to elaborate on why Tsubaki and Izayoi are doing this as well. So displacement agrees with your theory but there is no evidence to suggest the proliferation of physical objects like other forms of timetravel fiction. (Boils down to are we discussing Back to the Future vs Groundhog Day/Stargate SG-1 episode where you can go back in time with stuff no problem in the former while only your consciousness goes back in the latter). Rachel definitely made Ragna go Back to the Future in CP, but that was because she had Tsukyomi, which is definitely stronger than any defensive measure Terumi could put together since it is one of the Sankishin. There is evidence for both, so I can't say for certain which is the one Terumi goes through. We also have the whole predicatment that Ragna's time travel adventure "fixed" the messed up timeloop caused by Black Beast Ragna appearing in 2100. Now that the timeloop is "stable", any other attempt to time travel could cause a new paradox or loop,.

 

Go watch "Triangle" (2009) for a timeloop plot that involves object's being 'copied' to previous points in the loop. Its pretty decent and I think adds support to your arguement if others want a more concrete example of what you've described. 

 

I'm all ears if you want to elaborate on the physics of the different types of time travel, but hopefully this exercise illustrates my disdain for the topic being used for explanations. Shit doesn't have a logical basis. Where the hell are the axioms of time travel!?What about the fundamental laws associated with it? You mean its just a plot device? oh...I see....

 

I believe that Ogiga99's other point is a more viable candidate for consideration. Basically the fact he can wield power based on the Susanoo unit without actually having it, especially the precedent that he could also likely do the same thing with a Nox Nyctores with no problem since a Sankishin is definitely more mysterious and otherworldly than a Nox Nyctores. How? No idea.

 

I would like to propose an alternative idea based on the whole Phase Shift business that Ogiga99 was hinting at:

 

what if Hazama has the Nox Nyctores Ouroboros while Terumi has the Legacy Weapon/ancient weapon mentioned in Phase Shift 1. Think like the original Take Mikazuchi or Hiro'hikane (Tomomori's sword). I can't remember the quote off the top of my head, but Terumi drops a comment when he receives Nox Nyctores: Ouroboros from Nine about how its different yet the same as the one he had that killed Tomomori (citation needed). The precedent for such a thing already exists with both Take Mikazuchi being the basis for the other Nox Nyctores and the fact that there is a both a Sorcery/Art for Mind eater and an Armagus spell for Mind Eater (Maladictus Plaga and Opprimo Vinculum). Nevertheless, we know for sure that there are pre-Dark War variants of several weapons/spells that we are familiar in modern Blazblue using just mind eater and Take Mikazuchi. Definitely need verification on the difference between the two mind eater spells though (Nine used the Sorcery one on Terumi while Tsubaki was under the Armagus one). That would explain why each body has one. 

 

Both JustaMaskedFreak's translation of the twin snakes implying Ouroboros was always two chains is definitely viable (why else would you call it Gemini?) as is Ogiga99's thoughts on Trinity accidentally materializing Terumi's body with a copy of Ouroboros from the Dark War. Fucking Muchorin just makes anything possible since it creates matter...I definitely prefer either of these to the "lol timeloop" arguement since as a story telling convention, we see inconsistencies that haven't been elaborated on or justified. 

 

 

 

 

 

Or it could be that Mori didn't bother explaining it just like that whole business with Ragna's sword (was that even resolved?) because Eastern storytelling yadayadayada...That's a really lazy viewpoint though.

 

You don't sound disrespectful at all. By all means question me to your hearts content.

Regarding Ouroboros in CP, I don't think we ever see them explicitly use Ouroboros at the same time. Hazama doesn't fight when they are split so as far as we know only Terumi has it (while he does stab Platinum, that was most likely with his butterfly knives since he has to charge into shanking range).

It is entirely possible that the Edge is filled with Hakumen's and only one is active. However when it comes to Terumi acquiring one, you are forgetting two things. One, the Edge and the Boundary are different. Terumi can travel through the Boundary easily but he got trapped in the Edge until Takamagahara busted him out, so he can't come and go as he pleases (and even if he could, since the Boundary and Edge are infinite, there is no way he could actually reasonably search for one much like how Kazuma is lost). Two, Terumi seems to no longer have access to his spirit form in CF. Trinity's body is his spirit materialized, which is why he can't fuse with Hazama, so he lost access to his method of travel (and even if he could he has to risk not being able to get back into the Embryo, if he can even leave at all, and has to worry about the strain of Observing himself).

Ragna seems to be a unique case. When we see him return, he only seems to have experienced one loop so the Time for Decision that happens in Phase 0 seems to transcend all the Phases and become fact. CP Ragna comes to the Dark War from outside the time loop so he only goes back once, whereas Rachel and Terumi were inside the time loop so they appeared over and over in each Phase. It's still possible however that the same rules as Ragna applies to Terumi and Rachel or even with all Boundary interaction and only one of each thing actually exists but who knows. Side note: we have never gotten confirmation on Ragna returning with Blood Scythe. The "he takes the sword and jacket from the CT Ragna inside the Black Beast" theory is the best we got. We do see Ragna wearing the jacket in Phase Shift 3 and 4 illustrations which supports this. Maybe once it's translated we'll know if he was wearing it as soon as he popped out of the Black Beast.

Not sure what you mean by displacing because this is different from the Embryo. There is no current Terumi to replace because the Terumi that goes back in time (physically or mentally) is the only Terumi. It's the same with Ragna. We also do know that travel through time via the Boundary can bring physical objects since we see it with Ragna and Jin. I don't think the Tsukuyomi was necessary for the trip since the Wheel of Fortune Jin, Makoto, and Relius have made the trip just fine on their own (all that's needed to survive a trip through the Boundary is a strong soul, while Sankishin or being a Prime Field just seem to be a bonus). Terumi's ghost form seems to be a really good method of travel so he could easily do better than Ragna (who still suffers memory loss).

I feel like I might have missed a couple of your points on time travel (as I don't have experience with the references you provided) but in general that has always been confusing so I apologize.

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about and older type of Ouroboros. If as you say about Terumi not bringing anything with him is true, then how could he acquire this other Legacy Weapon/Causality Weapon version in the first place? Terumi returns as a spirit, meaning he has no physical body until the moment he fuses with Kazuma, at which point he already has Ouroboros so there is no way for him to physically get it. Additionally, the Legacy Weapons in XBlaze are one of those things that share names and have vague similarities but ultimately have no direct correlation to each other (look at Lux Sanctics Murakumo being an armor as opposed to Vow Crystal Seal Blade Murakumo just being a sword), so the odds of one called Ouroboros, if it exists, looking and acting the same is slim. Similarly, having two spells with the same name does not make having two of the same weapon any more likely. As for Causality Weapons, I don't think it's confirmed there is an original Take-Mikazuchi. Nine's explanation is very vague and she never directly mentions Take-Mikazuchi once she gets into the details. All she says is that she revived Causality Weapons after discovering Izayoi so whether or not she revived a previous Take-Mikazuchi or created and abandoned it is unknown. Basically, there are a lot of things that share names but have very little actually in common so I'm skeptical about two completely different versions of it being made. I've searched through everything that's currently been translated from Phase Shift and can't find the scene where Terumi receives Ouroboros to confirm what he says about it being different (I believe what you're saying is true since I've heard other people say the same thing but until I can read exactly what it says I'll withhold judgment about it).

[Zedar90]

From Gamer

The possibilities of this world is being distorted by the “Central Fiction”.
The entitled who have learned this, begins to make their moves in order to grant their “desires”.
While they are doing that, “Ragna the Bloodedge” also begins to make his move to release the “possibility” from the world...

Hazama: Even if you make me your vessel, I don't think the goal will be fulfilled.

Jin: Are you planning to get in the way, Kagura.

Rachel: I have no intention of talking with you!

Litcih: Roy...?

Izanami: Relius. Who am I?

[Yoshirocks92]

1 minute ago, Zedar90 said:

From Gamer

The possibilities of this world is being distorted by the “Central Fiction”.
The entitled who have learned this, begins to make their moves in order to grant their “desires”.
While they are doing that, “Ragna the Bloodedge” also begins to make his move to release the “possibility” from the world...

Hazama: Even if you make me your vessel, I don't think the goal will be fulfilled.

Jin: Are you planning to get in the way, Kagura.

Rachel: I have no intention of talking with you!

Litcih: Roy...?

Izanami: Relius. Who am I?

Is this what we could expect in Act III?

[MaximusMurkimus]

Chiming in on the whole timeline thing, Ragna says in CS that Jin has had his sword for at least two years before the church burned down and it's been 10 years since then (can't remember; it's either him having the sword which would make it 8 years, or 10 years since the church burned down) so there's at least 8-10 years of a gap, which would've been enough time for Noel to have been created using Saya. That means they all at to be at least 8-10 beforehand if they're all in their late teens-early twenties by the current story.

Maybe it's just being possessed by Izzy, but if Saya's the youngest and she seems kinda grown as it is, Ragna and Jin have to be in the early twenties minimum, but that seems odd since if the church burning was 8-10 years prior, they would have to be at least preteens. Of course, being artificial humans could stunt their aging.

[Zedar90]

2 minutes ago, Yoshirocks92 said:

Is this what we could expect in Act III?

I don't know if I would say expect, but it's from Act 3.
But one thing could be said, the selection screen has Ragna instead of the boss character like the previous act had, so the chance for a new boss is less likely(unless the new boss is super hidden for some reason).
It sounds like everyone is up to beating the crap out of each others while Ragna does his own thing.

[MaximusMurkimus]

Aw yeah, Ragna going the Wild Card route, Rachel freaking out in a fit of out-of-character moments, and Izanami having an existential crisis? Act 3's looking great already.

[Yoshirocks92]

1 minute ago, Zedar90 said:

I don't know if I would say expect, but it's from Act 3.
But one thing could be said, the selection screen has Ragna instead of the boss character like the previous act had, so the chance for a new boss is less likely(unless the new boss is super hidden for some reason).
It sounds like everyone is up to beating the crap out of each others while Ragna does his own thing.

I guess that's a possibility but I wonder what Noel will do in Act III since she wants to be a normal girl in her Act I ending and then in Act II, it has been revealed that Noel is the Master Unit. Guess we'll find once Act III gets an announcement.  

[Axiomatic]

3 hours ago, Ogiga99 said:

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about and older type of Ouroboros. If as you say about Terumi not bringing anything with him is true, then how could he acquire this other Legacy Weapon/Causality Weapon version in the first place? Terumi returns as a spirit, meaning he has no physical body until the moment he fuses with Kazuma, at which point he already has Ouroboros so there is no way for him to physically get it. Additionally, the Legacy Weapons in XBlaze are one of those things that share names and have vague similarities but ultimately have no direct correlation to each other (look at Lux Sanctics Murakumo being an armor as opposed to Vow Crystal Seal Blade Murakumo just being a sword), so the odds of one called Ouroboros, if it exists, looking and acting the same is slim. Similarly, having two spells with the same name does not make having two of the same weapon any more likely. As for Causality Weapons, I don't think it's confirmed there is an original Take-Mikazuchi. Nine's explanation is very vague and she never directly mentions Take-Mikazuchi once she gets into the details. All she says is that she revived Causality Weapons after discovering Izayoi so whether or not she revived a previous Take-Mikazuchi or created and abandoned it is unknown. Basically, there are a lot of things that share names but have very little actually in common so I'm skeptical about two completely different versions of it being made. I've searched through everything that's currently been translated from Phase Shift and can't find the scene where Terumi receives Ouroboros to confirm what he says about it being different (I believe what you're saying is true since I've heard other people say the same thing but until I can read exactly what it says I'll withhold judgment about it).

Definitely wasn't the most rigorous theory. I just thought there were some kind of spiritual Ouroboros weapon that Nine copied to make the Nox Nyctores Ouroboros we know. Thus the spirit version stayed with Terumi (hence why Kazuma used it on Tomomori as Terumi could then become the "heads" momentarily and access his spirit Ouroboros) while Hazama kept the Nox Nyctores one. At this point I'm grasping at straws though, so I think its best to drop the matter.

The scene from the Phase Shift novels would have to be from Phase Shift 2 or 3 though. If it is not in 2, then I must have seen a translation of a scene either here or elsewhere. Might've been one of those requests Zedar gets from people.

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Regarding Ouroboros in CP, I don't think we ever see them explicitly use Ouroboros at the same time. Hazama doesn't fight when they are split so as far as we know only Terumi has it (while he does stab Platinum, that was most likely with his butterfly knives since he has to charge into shanking range).

Yeah, you're correct, so there is nothing definitively stating that they aren't sharing the same Ouroboros.

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It is entirely possible that the Edge is filled with Hakumen's and only one is active. However when it comes to Terumi acquiring one, you are forgetting two things. One, the Edge and the Boundary are different. Terumi can travel through the Boundary easily but he got trapped in the Edge until Takamagahara busted him out, so he can't come and go as he pleases (and even if he could, since the Boundary and Edge are infinite, there is no way he could actually reasonably search for one much like how Kazuma is lost). Two, Terumi seems to no longer have access to his spirit form in CF. Trinity's body is his spirit materialized, which is why he can't fuse with Hazama, so he lost access to his method of travel (and even if he could he has to risk not being able to get back into the Embryo, if he can even leave at all, and has to worry about the strain of Observing himself).

short answer:

After going though the reasoning, Terumi should not be able to search the whole boundary.

long answer:

I forgot that Takamaghara had to free him from it. I would contest the infinite argument though, since although from a mathematical point of view something infinite can never be fully "understood" in the conventional sense (just consider Graham's number or constructions of the real numbers using the rational numbers and filling in the "gaps" shown by proving the denseness of the reals with Dedekind cuts for the rationals and then all the Cauchy sequences that sum to irrational numbers; see literature on metric spaces) there are ways we can prove infinite facts via a "domino" or inductive argument. In CS though, Terumi claims he observed EVERY single possibility which thus means there must have been a finite number of them. Or we're operating under multi-verse theory where there are also an infinite number of Terumi's in an infinite number of realities which could justify exhaustive knowledge of every possibility via a domino effect. At this point though, I think we've put more thought in the matter than Mori has about grasping an infinite number of possibliites. There are arguemnts about how information contains a certain amount of entropy and that there comes a point where a gigantic number which is still less than infinity contains too much information that it causes the formation of a black hole (see Graham's number). 

Your arguement holds if all those possibilities Terumi observed were finite, but based on Chaos theory, it shouldn't be or at least it isn't intuitively finite. I could go on, but I've likely lost you in some of my arguments. Terumi's statement refutes all of my claims if we take his statement to imply there were only so many distinct possibilities. Since the world is running through Amatarasu's reconstructions and loops, being rebuilt by her memories and until otherwise proven there is a limit on the amount of storable memories (another entropy argument) then Terumi only had to memorize all of the conceivable futures Amatarasu could create.

So after going through the process with only tertiary knowledge about certain subjects, your argument about Terumi being unable to search the whole boundary for wild Hakumen's seems to hold up (things will get complicated with the multiverse viewpoint since there would then be two kinds of infinite we would have to  consider.both countably and uncountably infinite bodies; we can show though that via isomorphisms we can show there must be a countably infinite number of Hakumen bodies so we're dealing with the small infinity rather than the large infinity). I think I got too much into the required mathematical reasoning for either argument though. Mori has demonstrated how he narrative science rather than true science, so going further will lead to problems precisely because Mori hasn't put as much thought in the consequences of time travel in his narrative other than to conveniently create back story for things. 

Spoiler

Do we know for certain his CF body is still the materialized Trinity body though? Consider how Terumi is currently observing himself  (at least that was my impression from his Act 1 talk with Relius). After getting Time Killered, didn't that materialized body cease to exist? Otherwise, why would he observe himself? We've seen the only times he has observed himself where when he attacked the church and arguably in Phase Shift 1 when Kazuma got attacked. In both cases, his form was by default the spirt form. I think I need some clarification about his observation, as Arakune is being observed and he isn't a spirit, so maybe Terumi is observing himself not to materialize his soul but to keep his existence around.

 

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Ragna seems to be a unique case. When we see him return, he only seems to have experienced one loop so the Time for Decision that happens in Phase 0 seems to transcend all the Phases and become fact. CP Ragna comes to the Dark War from outside the time loop so he only goes back once, whereas Rachel and Terumi were inside the time loop so they appeared over and over in each Phase. It's still possible however that the same rules as Ragna applies to Terumi and Rachel or even with all Boundary interaction and only one of each thing actually exists but who knows. Side note: we have never gotten confirmation on Ragna returning with Blood Scythe. The "he takes the sword and jacket from the CT Ragna inside the Black Beast" theory is the best we got. We do see Ragna wearing the jacket in Phase Shift 3 and 4 illustrations which supports this. Maybe once it's translated we'll know if he was wearing it as soon as he popped out of the Black Beast.

Thanks for the reminder. Unfortunately, I don't think Mori actually even realizes such a discrepancy exists since it seems like he is done with the Phase Shift era.

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Not sure what you mean by displacing because this is different from the Embryo. There is no current Terumi to replace because the Terumi that goes back in time (physically or mentally) is the only Terumi. It's the same with Ragna. We also do know that travel through time via the Boundary can bring physical objects since we see it with Ragna and Jin. I don't think the Tsukuyomi was necessary for the trip since the Wheel of Fortune Jin, Makoto, and Relius have made the trip just fine on their own (all that's needed to survive a trip through the Boundary is a strong soul, while Sankishin or being a Prime Field just seem to be a bonus). Terumi's ghost form seems to be a really good method of travel so he could easily do better than Ragna (who still suffers memory loss).

I feel like I might have missed a couple of your points on time travel (as I don't have experience with the references you provided) but in general that has always been confusing so I apologize.

What I meant by displacing was how when CP Major JIn entered the embryo, the embryo's Captain Jin ceased to exist. Contrast this with How CP Tsubaki entered as Izayoi but CF Tsubaki is still around as well (Jin runs into both of them in his arcade).

Upon further reflection, it appears that BB does operate on object time travel. That leaves me to ask though what happened to Jinakumen's Yukianasa when he fell into the cauldron after Ragna and Nu to end up in 2099 and go on to become Hakumen?

Don't worry about the references, I just thought it would be easier to grasp the distinctions through examples rather than exhaustive descriptions. But BB should operate on rules very similar to Triangle then, where a person that travels back in time also introduces new copies of items on themselves to the timeline they visit. So in the movie, the protagonist goes back in time and becomes distressed after finding a shit ton of her necklaces in the same spot where she drops hers, realizing she is stuck in a timeloop.

 

Edited February 25, 2016 by Axiomatic
Summary Picture

[Luminos564]

5 hours ago, Zedar90 said:

From Gamer

The possibilities of this world is being distorted by the “Central Fiction”.
The entitled who have learned this, begins to make their moves in order to grant their “desires”.
While they are doing that, “Ragna the Bloodedge” also begins to make his move to release the “possibility” from the world...

This intrigues me. I thought it would be pretty darn weird for Ragna to suddenly listen to Izanami and do what is asked of him. So while everyone jumps at each other's throats (or True Noel's if we're going to add drama), he goes on to find his own ticket. How ironic. The one character that is ALWAYS out of the loop and demands he be included now suddenly goes "Bother this nonsense, Imma go do my own thing. You guys try not to go all Hamlet on me while I'm gone".

6 hours ago, Zedar90 said:

Hazama: Even if you make me your vessel, I don't think the goal will be fulfilled.

So Hazama has more or less no intention to help Terumi anymore. Fun. The Troll King (Terumi) gets out-trolled by his own body. It's like Shadow Draygon predicted it with that "nice" Hazama personality from way back in the early Blazen comics.

6 hours ago, Zedar90 said:

Jin: Are you planning to get in the way, Kagura.

So Jin is after Noel's head if that story CG is anything to be believed. At least Kagura's a total bro.

6 hours ago, Zedar90 said:

Rachel: I have no intention of talking with you!

Oh look, Rachel went all tsundere for Naoto this time. I'll admit, it's actually fun to watch her lose her cool whenever she encounters him. Too long has her "I know anything and everything" attitude bugged me so pardon my glee at the current turn of events.

6 hours ago, Zedar90 said:

Izanami: Relius. Who am I?

First Noel, then Mu-12 and now Izanami has an identity crisis. Geez, Mori is like Oprah, only instead of giving out money and cars, he gives out mental breakdowns like candy.

[kylehyde]

Just gonna speculate here but I'm assuming Rachel going kind of crazy with the lighting against Naoto is in due in part of his presence causing Ragna existence to weaken. When they meet for the first time and Naoto introduces herself Rachel was freaking out. Something about claiming the existence. She didn't hesitate to get rid of him.

"Releasing the possibility from the world" So looks like Ragna plans to save True Noel and release her from the iron grips of Amaterasu? Either that or their talking about something to do with him.

The white background in Ragna's picture reminds me of the place inside Takamagahara. I've always wondered if they were ever gonna bring that shit up again. I mean I know it's already gone and the pic is probably inside Amaterasu, but Takamagahara used to be a big thing in the game.

 

 

 

 

[JustaMaskedFreak]

5 hours ago, Axiomatic said:

Do we know for certain his CF body is still the materialized Trinity body though? Consider how Terumi is currently observing himself  (at least that was my impression from his Act 1 talk with Relius). After getting Time Killered, didn't that materialized body cease to exist? Otherwise, why would he observe himself? We've seen the only times he has observed himself where when he attacked the church and arguably in Phase Shift 1 when Kazuma got attacked. In both cases, his form was by default the spirt form. I think I need some clarification about his observation, as Arakune is being observed and he isn't a spirit, so maybe Terumi is observing himself not to materialize his soul but to keep his existence around.

IIRC, Terumi was observing himself to not be killed instantly by Time Killer, but he needs a vessel to not die, also he has something like a week to do so, and his Act II ending show that he wants to use the True Noel as a vessel this time.

But then, I see this:

8 hours ago, Zedar90 said:

Hazama: Even if you make me your vessel, I don't think the goal will be fulfilled.

Unless Arcade endings don't mix up, why would Terumi want Hazama as a vessel again, since Terumi wants the Master Unit for himself?

[Toxin45]

Hazama trolls Terumi,Litchi discovering Roy,Kagura protecting Noel from Jin,and Izanami asking relius who is she?Wow Izanami being called her drive is kinda shocking.

[Ogiga99]

10 hours ago, Axiomatic said:

Definitely wasn't the most rigorous theory. I just thought there were some kind of spiritual Ouroboros weapon that Nine copied to make the Nox Nyctores Ouroboros we know. Thus the spirit version stayed with Terumi (hence why Kazuma used it on Tomomori as Terumi could then become the "heads" momentarily and access his spirit Ouroboros) while Hazama kept the Nox Nyctores one. At this point I'm grasping at straws though, so I think its best to drop the matter.

The scene from the Phase Shift novels would have to be from Phase Shift 2 or 3 though. If it is not in 2, then I must have seen a translation of a scene either here or elsewhere. Might've been one of those requests Zedar gets from people.

Nine probably couldn't have copied it because the only Causality Weapons she found were Izayoi and (possibly) Take-Mikazuchi. However now that I think about it is possible that his Ouroboros wasn't true because it was a weapon without it's core. We have seen Nox's can be used without cores and can even be created before they become Nox's in the first place (Nirvana in PS2 is not a Nox and works autonomously and both Okami and Musashi work without cores). It's possible then that Nine took the Ouroboros he used against Tomonori and upgraded it with a core, which would also explain why she gave him the same type of weapon. Perhaps that Ouroboros is from the future and somehow lost its core due to the trip through the Boundary or it is a weapon that Relius made and Kazuma had with him that wasn't a Nox Nyctores yet. On further reflection I actually think your theory might be stronger than I first thought.

I'm starting to think it was in 3. Aside from seeing that Hakumen is wielding a sword that looks the same as Okami (which is different from the one he had in Phase 0) there is no mention of any of the Nox aside from Nirvana, which is not a Nox yet, in PS2. Nine also doesn't even start explaining the Nox until PS3 chapter 1, so it's likely that the others hadn't gotten the weapons yet since they hadn't questioned what they were. I do believe I remember either Zedar or VermillionBird showing that quote so it is likely to be a translation from later but I can't find it. Zedar, if you could confirm that for me I would greatly appreciate it.

 

10 hours ago, Axiomatic said:

I forgot that Takamaghara had to free him from it. I would contest the infinite argument though, since although from a mathematical point of view something infinite can never be fully "understood" in the conventional sense (just consider Graham's number or constructions of the real numbers using the rational numbers and filling in the "gaps" shown by proving the denseness of the reals with Dedekind cuts for the rationals and then all the Cauchy sequences that sum to irrational numbers; see literature on metric spaces) there are ways we can prove infinite facts via a "domino" or inductive argument. In CS though, Terumi claims he observed EVERY single possibility which thus means there must have been a finite number of them. Or we're operating under multi-verse theory where there are also an infinite number of Terumi's in an infinite number of realities which could justify exhaustive knowledge of every possibility via a domino effect. At this point though, I think we've put more thought in the matter than Mori has about grasping an infinite number of possibliites. There are arguemnts about how information contains a certain amount of entropy and that there comes a point where a gigantic number which is still less than infinity contains too much information that it causes the formation of a black hole (see Graham's number). 

Your arguement holds if all those possibilities Terumi observed were finite, but based on Chaos theory, it shouldn't be or at least it isn't intuitively finite. I could go on, but I've likely lost you in some of my arguments. Terumi's statement refutes all of my claims if we take his statement to imply there were only so many distinct possibilities. Since the world is running through Amatarasu's reconstructions and loops, being rebuilt by her memories and until otherwise proven there is a limit on the amount of storable memories (another entropy argument) then Terumi only had to memorize all of the conceivable futures Amatarasu could create.

So after going through the process with only tertiary knowledge about certain subjects, your argument about Terumi being unable to search the whole boundary for wild Hakumen's seems to hold up (things will get complicated with the multiverse viewpoint since there would then be two kinds of infinite we would have to  consider.both countably and uncountably infinite bodies; we can show though that via isomorphisms we can show there must be a countably infinite number of Hakumen bodies so we're dealing with the small infinity rather than the large infinity). I think I got too much into the required mathematical reasoning for either argument though. Mori has demonstrated how he narrative science rather than true science, so going further will lead to problems precisely because Mori hasn't put as much thought in the consequences of time travel in his narrative other than to conveniently create back story for things.

I feel like your mixing together a bunch of things with the infinite discussion. For one thing their is not an infinite amount of Hakumen's since there are a finite number of time loops (at minimum 725). A Hakumen sacrifices himself once per time loop so if a new one does indeed appear each time it has a limit. Second, we are discussing two different infinities. There is the Boundary itself which is infinite space and the infinite possibilities/realities which are more along the line of multiverse theory. The Boundary connects all of time and space together so there is only one of it (not including Litchi's Personal Boundary theory which sounds like something else entirely) but that one Boundary has no limit to its size since time and space do not exist inside it (or at the very least it is so ungodly massive that it is impossible to properly navigate aside from focusing on a specific destination to leave it or find the Master Unit inside it with the Eye of the Azure or its Discover Call). As for the entirely separate matter, Terumi observing all the possibilities of the Continuum Shift, there are two possibilities. One, magic did it (he says magic is awesome when questioned by Takamagahara about it but it might just be a case of it letting him process all that information or find all those possibilities like with Nine looking throughout the Embryo). Whether he is talking Phantom's magic or his own magic (confirmed in Library mode and the version of Mind Eater he used on Nine being the magic one) is unknown. Two, the possibilities are not truly infinite. In truth the Continuum Shift's possibilities are limited in scope, taking place in one city, only happening over a course of a few days and only revolving around the actions of about 20 people. We also don't know what constitutes a different possibility. The reason the multiverse is truly infinite is because of the billions of different choices made every second, so technically there could be two universes where everything is exactly the same except in one Ragna chooses to blink one second later than the other. However, due to the nature of possibilities of the Continuum Shift being tied to Phenomenon Intervention, which selects a possible timeline by making certain people's choices or actions either "exist" or "not exist", it is possible that there is a finite (although still insanely huge) number of realities that can be Observed, Terumi can just see as many as the Master Unit can (which can Intervene on any phenomenon) whereas Takagamahara is limited to only using Phenomenon Intervention on (and thus Observing the changes to) world changing events. Also there doesn't seem to be infinite Terumi's. While what he is exactly is a mystery, the fact that he is a spirit is very important. He needs a vessel, and either an Observer or people to hate him to stay anchored in the world, meaning he is not a proper part of the world (much like Hakumen is a projection of his real body in the Boundary). The fact that he is not tied to any world suggests that he can travel to any world in a linear fashion (notably he is able to remember the different time loops/possibilities while not being an Observer, which means he is immune to Phenomenon Intervention through some other means).

 

11 hours ago, Axiomatic said:

Do we know for certain his CF body is still the materialized Trinity body though? Consider how Terumi is currently observing himself  (at least that was my impression from his Act 1 talk with Relius). After getting Time Killered, didn't that materialized body cease to exist? Otherwise, why would he observe himself? We've seen the only times he has observed himself where when he attacked the church and arguably in Phase Shift 1 when Kazuma got attacked. In both cases, his form was by default the spirt form. I think I need some clarification about his observation, as Arakune is being observed and he isn't a spirit, so maybe Terumi is observing himself not to materialize his soul but to keep his existence around.

When Terumi tries to fuse with Hazama in his Act II Arcade, he says he cannot because of the body Trinity materialized for him. Time Killer didn't do anything to his physical body, it was supposed to destroy all of the "time" the target has left (in other words the inherit limit of how long it is supposed to exist). While Terumi needed a physical body for Hakumen to be able to hit him with the attack, the attack is against Terumi's spirit directly. However Terumi survived by Observing himself, not to give himself a body, but to anchor his existence. Basically Time Killer says "you're not supposed to exist anymore" but he's countering by saying "screw that, I still exist because I can say that i still exist" (basically "I think therefore I am" taken to it's literal conclusion). In the past he Observed himself as a being with a physical body (and when he did he was coughing up blood after a short while because he couldn't maintain making his own body) whereas now he is using it to keep himself alive by acknowledging that his spirit still exists (and he has a full week to do it) so they are very different circumstances and have very different repercussions.

Ultimately, all Observing does is acknowledge that whatever is being Observed actually exists. The world is being Observed by Amaterasu which is saying "yes, this think actually happened." Arakune and Hakumen are similar. Rachel and Kokonoe are Observing Hakumen by acknowledging that Hakumen existing in the real world with a physical body is fact and Kokonoe is Observing that a being called Arakune still exists to prevent the goop from fulling returning to the Boundary like it's supposed to.

 

6 hours ago, Toxin45 said:

Wow Rachel is getting more tsudere towards Naoto could Raquel's body is being used by Rachel? Also Ragna is gonna do something neat,Hazama trolls Terumi,Litchi discovering Roy,Kagura protecting Noel from Jin,and Izanami asking relius who is she?Wow Izanami being called her drive is kinda shocking.

I don't think Rachel is being tsundere. We've seen tsundere Rachel many times and she acts nothing like this (her trying to pretend she's not upset when she's sees Ragna eating with Platinum, her anger about Ragna getting flustered by Noel's Mu outfit in Mu's CP Arcade, despite causing the situation in the first place, and in MANY of the joke endings, which still fit her characterization even if they might not be canon). Rachel looks and sounds like she's legitimately pissed at Naoto and wants him to die since he's threatening her Ragna.

[Madness4455]

Basically, the laws and physics of Blazblue's verse sounds eerily similar to Schrodinger's Cat Theory. The Thought Experiment fits the aspect on how Blazblue's universe works. 

[Zedar90]

2 hours ago, Ogiga99 said:

I'm starting to think it was in 3. Aside from seeing that Hakumen is wielding a sword that looks the same as Okami (which is different from the one he had in Phase 0) there is no mention of any of the Nox aside from Nirvana, which is not a Nox yet, in PS2. Nine also doesn't even start explaining the Nox until PS3 chapter 1, so it's likely that the others hadn't gotten the weapons yet since they hadn't questioned what they were. I do believe I remember either Zedar or VermillionBird showing that quote so it is likely to be a translation from later but I can't find it. Zedar, if you could confirm that for me I would greatly appreciate it.

I believe it was that they were given the noxs in Phase-shift 4, but they were using prototypes before the real deal was finished. I seriously needs to reread the LN's soon.

As for the Ouroboros, it seems like Terumi was using a "fake" or something in phase-shift 1, this is what he says in Phase-shift 4:

Terumi: Oh, I see. So this is the real Ouroboros. It's really the same as it was at that time, how interesting.
Nine: Interesting? Your talking like you've seen it before.

2 hours ago, Toxin45 said:

hey Zedar what were act 1 and act 2 select screens?Also yeah rachel is pissed really OOC

Spoiler