Central Fiction Arcade Plot Discussion (spoilers)

[ImmaYuukiTerumi]

The Black Beast's genes were able to be used to create artificial humans. Ragna is hinted to be an artificial human. The Black Beast is Ragna and Nu-13 fused together. So, Ragna possible is his own decendant? Was looking at Library mode. Also noticed they translated Hazama's BlazBlue as Blue Grimoire. Stuff about how in Japanese the word for blue and green can be the same but written differently.

[Luminos564]

2 hours ago, ImmaYuukiTerumi said:

The Black Beast's genes were able to be used to create artificial humans. Ragna is hinted to be an artificial human. The Black Beast is Ragna and Nu-13 fused together. So, Ragna possible is his own decendant? Was looking at Library mode.

Depends on which Black Beast you're referring to. The most common one to BlazBlue is the resulting fusion between Ragna and Nu-13, which rampages during the Dark War and is inevitably put to rest by the 6 Heroes. But, IIRC there was also another Black Beast. One that was wholly different from that fusion. Now, I know XBlaze isn't technically directly involved with BlazBlue, but seeing as how Es is a part of the tale now and since her original world also had a Black Beast, it might be entirely possible that one such entity was once formed in BB's own universe, had its cells studied and thus these artificial humans were created. The loops only persisted since Ragna and Nu-13 repeatedly fused, thus necessitating each repeat of the Dark War.

And now that we  know that the 2 mentioned aren't the only way to get it made (Hazama/Terumi and Noel fusing will suffice, as will Arakune after apparently swallowing enough Nox Nyctores weapons or just use Nine's magical method of agony), it does not rule out that maybe someone done really messed up way back before any of these loops took place and made said "original". If Ragna in all iterations is indeed artificial and the necessity of the Beast Cells in his creation is a must, then the source had to have come from somewhere in another point in time. The questions however remain as to "how" and "why".

...

Time travel is such shenanigans I tells you.

[Ogiga99]

44 minutes ago, Luminos564 said:

But, IIRC there was also another Black Beast. One that was wholly different from that fusion. Now, I know XBlaze isn't technically directly involved with BlazBlue, but seeing as how Es is a part of the tale now and since her original world also had a Black Beast, it might be entirely possible that one such entity was once formed in BB's own universe, had its cells studied and thus these artificial humans were created.

XBlaze itself is not in the same world as BlazBlue, but it it does stem from the same unified history. The point of branch between the two is the Wadatsumi Incident not happening in the main timeline, but everything before that is consistent, the Black Beast in XBlaze (not counting Touya turning into one in bad endings) is a being of unknown origin that emerged from the Boundary in ancient times and was sealed away by the Azure Shrine Maiden. It is a tale connected to the Amanohokosaka clan, which is confirmed to be canon to the main timeline. Therefore the XBlaze Black Beast did appear in the past and still continues to exist in the Boundary, even in the main world. That being said, this Black Beast is definitely not connected to the Beast Genes since it happened long before any way of studying cells could have existed and unlike the Dark War Black Beast, it was almost immediately returned to the Boundary, leaving no chance for anyone to even get a sample.

[Luminos564]

Oh I didn't mean that the samples came from the Black Beast when it showed up and was dealt with by the Azure Shrine Maiden explicitly. Rather, my point was that if Ragna is the artificial entity crafted from the Black Beast cells, then the origin of said cells had to have come from somewhere and for me, XBlaze's Black Beast is the only real primary source. How someone could get their hands on it is anyone's guess, but considering time travel seems to require passing through the Boundary and since that Black Beast is still there...well you get what I am saying, yeah?

Of course, that scenario raises even more questions since at the moment, travelling through the Boundary in BlazBlue's timeline is pretty difficult since you need something like the Tsukuyomi unit to do it safely, and even that has adverse effects like memory loss. It's pretty difficult to imagine anyone traveling there and somehow managing to pluck out a sample. Even Kokonoe, arguably one of the most knowledgeable people in both science and magic, can only barely salvage Hakumen from the Edge, let alone something from even deeper within. And that's not even getting into the eggheads who were sending in Boundary Interface units to try and explore it, only to fail miserably and getting Take-mikazuchi to blast them from orbit.

[NoelChan101]

2 hours ago, Luminos564 said:

And that's not even getting into the eggheads who were sending in Boundary Interface units to try and explore it, only to fail miserably and getting Take-mikazuchi to blast them from orbit.

Let's try getting the power of the Azure after a bunch of attempts one finally goes down deep enough oh no it grow a soul and can't control it let seal it in the boundary. ( Creating the situation in BlazBlue's plot)

They try again with the original kusanagi  oh no same result let's destroy it which was done by humanity via Izayoi "taken from the library

(Also what ever happened to that kusanagi they said it was "destroyed" by humanity but Relius says "Anyone can destroy a cauldron but killing it requires a grimore." (or something like that)

They got perfect results on 2 primefields but for some reason feared them like what did they expect?

[Ogiga99]

3 hours ago, Luminos564 said:

Oh I didn't mean that the samples came from the Black Beast when it showed up and was dealt with by the Azure Shrine Maiden explicitly. Rather, my point was that if Ragna is the artificial entity crafted from the Black Beast cells, then the origin of said cells had to have come from somewhere and for me, XBlaze's Black Beast is the only real primary source. How someone could get their hands on it is anyone's guess, but considering time travel seems to require passing through the Boundary and since that Black Beast is still there...well you get what I am saying, yeah?

Of course, that scenario raises even more questions since at the moment, travelling through the Boundary in BlazBlue's timeline is pretty difficult since you need something like the Tsukuyomi unit to do it safely, and even that has adverse effects like memory loss. It's pretty difficult to imagine anyone traveling there and somehow managing to pluck out a sample. Even Kokonoe, arguably one of the most knowledgeable people in both science and magic, can only barely salvage Hakumen from the Edge, let alone something from even deeper within. And that's not even getting into the eggheads who were sending in Boundary Interface units to try and explore it, only to fail miserably and getting Take-mikazuchi to blast them from orbit.

I apologize, I misinterpreted you. That being said, I have to disagree with the XBlaze Black Beast being connected. It has been stuck in the Boundary ever since the Azure Shrine Maiden sealed it and hasn't appeared since. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the Azure Shrine Maiden brought it to a level "deeper" than the normal Boundaru. We've seen that there are different places in the Boundary (the Edge, The World of the Tsukuyomi and the realm of the gods beyond the Azure Gate) so it not showing up implies it cannot hang out as close to Cauldrons as it did. It might even be in the realm of the gods since it is referred to as a "god of destruction" and the Azure Shrine Maiden was able to communicate with the Azure so maybe she opened and then sealed that by accident.

Even if it was in the normal "Boundary," as you said, it would be impossible for humans to find it. While travel in the Boundary is possible, searching it really isn't. You don't necessarily need the Tsukuyomi to safely traverse the Boundary, though it helps, since there are several other methods. All it truly needs is a strong soul to retain your sense of self since Jin, Hakumen, Makoto and Relius all made it relatively unscathed. Prime Fields can do it no problem and certain unique entities can take regular dips into the Boundary. Terumi would travel through it in CS and Rachel could do it without Tsukuyomi since she popped into the Phase Shift era twice, first to talk to Ragna in P0 and again to bring him home in PS4, while Ragna had the unit. Both of them have shown that it is not just possible to survive a trip in the Boundary, but actually navigate through it to specific destinations. Still that is very different from being able to search the Boundary itself. They essentially know the map of all the exits and can find their way to and from them but that wouldn't help them find something hidden within the infinite Boundary itself. They only know the landmarks, not the location of everything in it. It's why it's so hard to find the Master Unit and Kazuma can be considered gone forever. The only exceptions are Takamagahara and Kokonoe finding Terumi and Hakumen respectively (and it's possible the Edge has different rules) and Noel and Es locating the Master Unit (the Eye of the Azure can acknowledge it and Es could home in on it's unique Discover Call) but it would be impossible for humanity to do that. Furthermore, we know the details of humanity exploring the Boundary pretty well. The only method they had was Boundary Interface Prime Field Devices, which are a recent invention (probably 2070's-90's) so artificial humans existed before exploring the Boundary was a thing. We also know those are just made of pure seithr so Beast Genes are out. Since we have no idea what kind of artificial human Ragna actually is, even if Beast Genes were used to make him, we have no way of knowing he isn't the first case and he was made after the Dark War.

It is also worth noting that getting Beast Genes after the Dark War would actually be pretty easy because the Black Beast was around for 10 years and it often left behind Remnants that were essentially mini-Black Beasts and could be harvested without too much trouble. If Beast Genes are related to Ragna, that time frame is a lot more likely.

 

1 hour ago, NoelChan101 said:

They got perfect results on 2 primefields but for some reason feared them like what did they expect?

They expected to get weapons and god powers that they could control. If the Prime Field has a soul of it's own it doesn't have to listen to them. I mean do you want a nuke that could choose to launch itself whenever it wants and you would have no way to stop it? That said, yes, they are idiots for playing with power farnbeyond their understanding. Terumi and Izanami make it pretty clear that humanity is kinda dumb like that and as long as they seek the power of a god things will go to hell again and again until they destroy themselves.

[Luminos564]

Oh don't get me wrong Ogiga, I fully agree that XBlaze's Black Beast is a bit of a farfetched idea. I was merely going on a hypothetical situation where, if the Black Beast cells were utilized to make artificial humans and if Ragna himself was one of their number, then the source of said cells must have come from an origin way before the world started looping. The ultimate question however though would be: what was the actual method of this? It can't have come from a Ragna and Nu-13 fusion, because that had yet to happen. And if it didn't happen at that time, then from whom and where did they get it?

But as you said, artificial humans are not exactly new and although the Library recounts the ones made with Black Beast cells, that doesn't rule out potential ones made without them either. Nor do we really know the circumstances in which Ragna could be classified as "artificial" as well. For all we know, once upon a time and before all of BB-verse went to Hell, he might've been just another jolly, regular kid. Might have even cracked a smile while being the big brother to Saya and Jin. Again, we know virtually nothing about who or what he was before being the feared Grim Reaper and his life sucking were a constant in his daily life...repeatedly.

[Ogiga99]

2 hours ago, Luminos564 said:

Oh don't get me wrong Ogiga, I fully agree that XBlaze's Black Beast is a bit of a farfetched idea. I was merely going on a hypothetical situation where, if the Black Beast cells were utilized to make artificial humans and if Ragna himself was one of their number, then the source of said cells must have come from a source way before the world started looping. The ultimate question however though would be: what was the actual source of this? It can't have come from a Ragna and Nu-13 fusion, because that had yet to happen. And if it didn't happen at that time, then from whom and where did they get it?

But as you said, artificial humans are not exactly new and although the Library recounts the ones made with Black Beast cells, that doesn't rule out potential ones made without them either. Nor do we really know the circumstances in which Ragna could be classified as "artificial" as well. For all we know, once upon a time and before all of BB-verse went to Hell, he might've been just another jolly, regular kid. Might have even cracked a smile while being the big brother to Saya and Jin. Again, we know virtually nothing about who or what he was before being the feared Grim Reaper and his life sucking were a constant in his daily life...repeatedly.

Yeah a lot of this stuff is pretty vague. For what it's worth, we do know for a fact that there are artificial humans that have no Beast Genes involved. Sechs was made by Sorcery, Es-N is made from Union Crystals and Mei's blood, Hazama and Kazuma are Azure Grimoires etc. Things always get incredibly complicated when we get into the question of what the world was like before the first loop. Whether there was a Black Beast there, how certain things could exist without a paradox etc. My personal view on it has always been that Phase 0 simply is the beginning, that it is the very first iteration but is still "inside" the timeloop. The Black Beast appears in 2099 while the loop starts in 2100, so in theory it must have been there in the very first iteration and since Ragna travelled to Phase 0 we know that the Black Beast that appeared before the loop is still one made from a Ragna/Nu fusion. Because of the Boundary being all timey wimey, the Black Beast could originate inside the time loop but still emerge at a time before it, despite Ragna and Nu not even existing in that form yet. The hard limit of Amaterasu's loop suggests that the Black Beast in the Dark War can never have had a different origin. Basically, to me Phase 0 is the first time ever that events from January 1st 2100 onward ever "happened."

[Tokkan]

Official console website has added character bios... to the story section. They also list 3 related characters and it's interesting that Es's 3rd related character is a question mark. It's also been confirmed that the sword Es uses in CF is the Crystal Sealing Blade: Murakumo, the same Legacy Weapon she uses in XBlaze.

http://www.blazblue.jp/cf/cs/story/

 

[Yoshirocks92]

6 minutes ago, Tokkan said:

Official console website has added character bios... to the story section. They also list 3 related characters and it's interesting that Es's 3rd related character is a question mark. It's also been confirmed that the sword Es uses in CF is the Crystal Sealing Blade: Murakumo, the same Legacy Weapon she uses in XBlaze.

http://www.blazblue.jp/cf/cs/story/

 

Yeah that's what I saw too since everyone else has got three characters while Es has only two of them. Now what I think is that there's going to be another newcomer that Mori's not revealing just yet.

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

4 hours ago, Yoshirocks92 said:

Yeah that's what I saw too since everyone else has got three characters while Es has only two of them. Now what I think is that there's going to be another newcomer that Mori's not revealing just yet.

Buy the DLC.... Buy the DLC!

Why sell a complete game from the start if you can have people burn more money on a few adicional essentials, isn't that right Kokonoe?

[Luminos564]

6 hours ago, Tokkan said:

Official console website has added character bios... to the story section. They also list 3 related characters and it's interesting that Es's 3rd related character is a question mark. It's also been confirmed that the sword Es uses in CF is the Crystal Sealing Blade: Murakumo, the same Legacy Weapon she uses in XBlaze.

http://www.blazblue.jp/cf/cs/story/

Yeah it was kinda inevitable that there would be one more character around since the roster leaves it pretty obvious (Es is located on top of the left half, while the other side is uneven). Half-surprised her 3rd related character isn't Nine though considering what happened in Lost Memories. But then again, there was no mention that this Es is the very same one we came to know in XBlaze either. So I guess now it's just a waiting game to see who's behind the big question mark.

Fingers crossed that

Spoiler

it is some completely new character as opposed to one from side materials.

 

[FKGunBlaze]

Anything new with the character bios?

[Toxin45]

Es bio states that she herself doesn't know why she is here or where she came from only having a strong desire to protect the gate.

[Tokkan]

The question mark is not necessarily an unrevealed character, it could also just be a spoiler.

[Arc Raizen]

11 hours ago, Tokkan said:

The question mark is not necessarily an unrevealed character, it could also just be a spoiler.

Es' introductory trailer did specifically show Makoto, Naoto, Celica, Nine, Ragna, and Amane near the end. Naoto and Ragna are already listed as her related characters, but that leaves 4 people that should have some connection to her in some way.

Makoto and Celica could just have a tea party with her and become besties like they already did in CP for all I know, but I've been suspicious of why those 6 were shown since they released it.

[churchblue]

I'm betting Es still refer Nine as "Me".

I'm still picturing Es as a mom figure to Noel ever since that BB radio show. Probably be very lewd.

Still hoping for a Es/Noel gag reel. 

[JustaMaskedFreak]

If I am not wrong, I hear she mentioning Hazama too in her trailer, could be him too.

[Tokkan]

24 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

If I am not wrong, I hear she mentioning Hazama too in her trailer, could be him too.

She did not mention Hazama the character, she said "hazama" the word.

[JustaMaskedFreak]

4 minutes ago, Tokkan said:

She did not mention Hazama the character, she said "hazama" the word.

Oh, I didn't know that hazama was also a word in japanese, but I want to understand a little better what could be her relation with Naoto, if it is not only his act 2 ending, where shows Es.

[Ogiga99]

3 hours ago, churchblue said:

I'm betting Es still refer Nine as "Me".

Es never calls her Watashi/Me. Watashi is the official name but in game the player gives her a name after she forgets hers. The only time Es addresses Watashi she calls her "my beloved friend" (or Nobody before that but that was Watashi trolling).

 

23 hours ago, Tokkan said:

The question mark is not necessarily an unrevealed character, it could also just be a spoiler.

Honestly it's probably just Nine. I've noticed they've been coy about LM when promoting Es, only mentioning CE. They might be treating the Watashi/Nine thing (or at least that Es=Nobody and became BFF's with her) as a spoiler. Everything about Es has been kept very mysterious so far.

[Ogiga99]

On August 5, 2016 at 4:30 AM, Tokkan said:

Official console website has added character bios... to the story section. They also list 3 related characters and it's interesting that Es's 3rd related character is a question mark. It's also been confirmed that the sword Es uses in CF is the Crystal Sealing Blade: Murakumo, the same Legacy Weapon she uses in XBlaze.

http://www.blazblue.jp/cf/cs/story/

 

So that sword IS the Murakumo after all. So the Embryo/Murakumo paradox is still in play. The mystery continues.

[heavymetalmixer]

40 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

Oh, I didn't know that hazama was also a word in japanese, but I want to understand a little better what could be her relation with Naoto, if it is not only his act 2 ending, where shows Es.

From what I know "hazama" means Heaven, or something like that.

[Toxin45]

53 minutes ago, Ogiga99 said:

Es never calls her Watashi/Me. Watashi is the official name but in game the player gives her a name after she forgets hers. The only time Es addresses Watashi she calls her "my beloved friend" (or Nobody before that but that was Watashi trolling).

 

Honestly it's probably just Nine. I've noticed they've been coy about LM when promoting Es, only mentioning CE. They might be treating the Watashi/Nine thing (or at least that Es=Nobody and became BFF's with her) as a spoiler. Everything about Es has been kept very mysterious so far.

Your forgetting that Es updated profile shows that Es dosen't know where she came from so I don't think that has been confirmed.

[Tokkan]

45 minutes ago, heavymetalmixer said:

From what I know "hazama" means Heaven, or something like that.

It means a parting space (like a gap... or a valley). The word was also used as the Japanese name of the space Hakumen was trapped in until Kokonoe fished him out (localised as "The Edge"), which was a space between the physical world and the Boundary.