Central Fiction Arcade Plot Discussion (spoilers)

[kylehyde]

I'm still a little confused on how Naoto's world is the future and Ragna's world is the past that leads up to Naoto's world. In Relius's past Naoto did exist and was defeated by Clavis, but this Naoto is not from his past but the future..... If the possibility that creates his world vanishes then I'm guessing this possibility must be a person who ends up dead but is supposed to live.

I want to say he is there to save Ragna from a bad ending but only because they have that weird connection that has yet to be explained. 

[Hero19]

1 hour ago, kylehyde said:

I'm still a little confused on how Naoto's world is the future and Ragna's world is the past that leads up to Naoto's world. In Relius's past Naoto did exist and was defeated by Clavis, but this Naoto is not from his past but the future..... If the possibility that creates his world vanishes then I'm guessing this possibility must be a person who ends up dead but is supposed to live.

I want to say he is there to save Ragna from a bad ending but only because they have that weird connection that has yet to be explained. 

Naoto is from an alternate past of the Blazblue world. It's basically the Hakumen-Jin timeline situation.  Hakumen and Jin timeline shared the same history up until  certain events that causes them to develop as different individuals despite being the same person. 

Naoto timeline and the Blazblue timeline was the same until Hazama arrival in the BEE timeline I assume and other events which we are not made aware of led to Naoto not dying to Clavis unlike his Blazblue counterpart. Blazblue and BEE world seem to have co-existed until a event that happen that caused the possibility of BEE world to cease to exist with Raquel dragging out  Naoto to the Blazblue timeline which seem to have become the "main" timeline instead of the many possible worlds that can exist.

Now Naoto has find some way through the "main" Blazblue timeline to make it so that possible worlds can exist again instead of having one timeline be the beginning and end of everything without allowing other futures to exist.  If Naoto does nothing then everything regarding his existence will be lost since as far as the Blazblue world timeline is concern the fate of Kurogane Naoto was him dying to Clavis Alucard and there is nothing else to it. So from what I gather Naoto is going to have to use the Blazblue timeline to reboot his world possibility of existing again somehow.

[MaximusMurkimus]

Here's a question: why is Raquel aware of Rachel enough to possess her but not the other way around? They're technically "sisters", if Clavis is the father for both of them, wouldn't they at least know each other through that, or was it a different timeline Clavis from BE who found Raquel?

 

[MaximusMurkimus]

Here's a question: why is Raquel aware of Rachel enough to possess her but not the other way around? They're technically "sisters", if Clavis is the father for both of them, wouldn't they at least know each other through that, or was it a different timeline Clavis from BE who found Raquel?

 

[Hero19]

24 minutes ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

Here's a question: why is Raquel aware of Rachel enough to possess her but not the other way around? They're technically "sisters", if Clavis is the father for both of them, wouldn't they at least know each other through that, or was it a different timeline Clavis from BE who found Raquel?

 

We don't know what is the exact relationship is between Raquel and Rachel beyond the fact of Clavis raising both of them. I'm more suspicious of what happen to the Blazblue version of Raquel more then anything else. Since she had to have exist for Naoto to lose his limbs in the Spinner fight and get new limbs built by Relius in the Blazblue world as well. Yet we haven't gotten a mention of what was her fate  only Naoto we know. I'm starting to wonder though if Rachel really is the result of whatever happen to Blazblue version of Raquel.

[Zedar90]

17 minutes ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

Here's a question: why is Raquel aware of Rachel enough to possess her but not the other way around? They're technically "sisters", if Clavis is the father for both of them, wouldn't they at least know each other through that, or was it a different timeline Clavis from BE who found Raquel?

It's likely that they weren't made in the same way.
Raquel looks like a teenager and she was connected to the boundary to gain information a short while after having some education.
Rachel was a small child (looked around 6-7 in phase shift) and is growing older. And her way of gaining knowledge was sleeping for half a centaury.

There is no way of knowing if Rachel knows as much as Raquel, and also Raquel that we know came "later" then Rachel. If they were made after another, Clavis might regret how he treated Raquel and tries to do educate and raise Rachel in a kinder way.

[MaximusMurkimus]

42 minutes ago, Zedar90 said:

It's likely that they weren't made in the same way.
Raquel looks like a teenager and she was connected to the boundary to gain information a short while after having some education.
Rachel was a small child (looked around 6-7 in phase shift) and is growing older. And her way of gaining knowledge was sleeping for half a centaury.

There is no way of knowing if Rachel knows as much as Raquel, and also Raquel that we know came "later" then Rachel. If they were made after another, Clavis might regret how he treated Raquel and tries to do educate and raise Rachel in a kinder way.

Apparently Raquel came straight from the Embryo in BE while Rachel is unknown, but like you said, they have different methods of obtaining their knowledge.

Is there any chance Rachel could be the "good" manifestation of some sort of Azure/Master Unit-related object, like how Izanami is the "evil" side of the Master Unit? Like Lana/Sia in Hyrule Warriors, for example. They're pretty similar in terms of disposition/personality but have polarizing goals.

I'm also playing through XBlaze right now; how could BE take place chronologically after CF if an older Mei knows Naoto/Saya T.? Or was that not confirmed/BE actually takes place in a simultaneous timeline?

[Zedar90]

6 minutes ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

Apparently Raquel came straight from the Embryo in BE while Rachel is unknown, but like you said, they have different methods of obtaining their knowledge.

I'm also playing through XBlaze right now; how could BE take place chronologically after CF if an older Mei knows Naoto/Saya T.? Or was that not confirmed/BE actually takes place in a simultaneous timeline?

Raquel didn't really come from the embryo, she is it. Clavis made the azure ball take the shape of Raquel.

In AD years wise, BE takes place before BB. But the BE possibility couldn't occur if CF doesn't happen. Whatever happen in CF effects the past so that BE happens, and the most likely cause is the Hazama that was looking for Relius in the end of BE part 2.
As for BE not taking place after XB, I don't know. It's possible that they are different possibilities. BE does have TOI, and Mei does appear(in a letter), and Kiiro is clearly based on Es, she even has Es in her prime field number. But there is one curious thing about BE, and that is the spelling of Amanohokosaka. In BB and XB it's 天ノ矛坂, while in BE it's 天乃矛坂. The NO in BE is different from the one in BB and XB, but the first name is the same.

[MaximusMurkimus]

So if Raquel is the Embryo/byproduct of the Azure/Embryo, maybe Rachel actually is the "good" representation of the Azure in the BB world in opposition to Izanami, which is why she is insistent on protecting the current world; that could be what the Azure wants to maintain order, since we're not entirely sure of what it wants aside from it being sentient. Why can Raquel possess Rachel? Because they share a connection through the Azure/Embryo; it could probably work the other way if she needed it to.

If this Mei in BE really is a different one based on the spelling, it could definitely be the entire BE world is a divergence of the BB world; XBlaze led to the current BlazBlue timeline, while XBlaze didn't quite happen exactly the way it did and the BE was the result. 

[JustaMaskedFreak]

Finally something is starting to make sense about Naoto, I think.

So, let me get this straight, Naoto's world is destroyed, and he need to do things in Ragna world to fix this problem, yet, his world is in the past, so how that's even possible, I mean, it is OK if Naoto came from the future, but is the other way around... how that works?

I wonder "how" and "what" could make Raquel control Rachel body. despite both being vampires and Raquel being in BE world, I think, it is weird, and yet amazing, how she can... "interact" with BB world. If she were just a voice that follow/help Naoto, it is just simple and really fine by me, like in his Act 2. However her power goes beyond that, truly amazing in my opinion...

Another thing... Amane Astral isn't canon, I understand, but isn't weird that Raquel appears when Naoto is hit by the Astral? I mean, it is like her soul is... bound to his and make her appear, like what happens to Platinum, where Trinity came, and obviously Luna and Sena doesn't exist during that time.

[Hero19]

22 minutes ago, Zedar90 said:

Raquel didn't really come from the embryo, she is it. Clavis made the azure ball take the shape of Raquel.

In AD years wise, BE takes place before BB. But the BE possibility couldn't occur if CF doesn't happen. Whatever happen in CF effects the past so that BE happens, and the most likely cause is the Hazama that was looking for Relius in the end of BE part 2.
As for BE not taking place after XB, I don't know. It's possible that they are different possibilities. BE does have TOI, and Mei does appear(in a letter), and Kiiro is clearly based on Es, she even has Es in her prime field number. But there is one curious thing about BE, and that is the spelling of Amanohokosaka. In BB and XB it's 天ノ矛坂, while in BE it's 天乃矛坂. The NO in BE is different from the one in BB and XB, but the first name is the same.

From what you translated though it appears the BEE possibility already existed and co-existed alongside Blazblue and the other possible worlds until something occur to only make the Blazblue timeline the only possible world. CF is the result of the other timelines being destroyed with the result of whatever happens in the CF timeline being the only possibility and result allow to influence the world while the other worlds are treated as if they didn't exist at all. Naoto being sent to the CF timeline is to find someway to undo whatever caused the process of the world possibilities being destroyed while using the CF timeline as a means to reboot those possibilities in order for his world to come back.

[Zedar90]

5 minutes ago, JustaMaskedFreak said:

So, let me get this straight, Naoto's world is destroyed, and he need to do things in Ragna world to fix this problem, yet, his world is in the past, so how that's even possible, I mean, it is OK if Naoto came from the future, but is the other way around... how that works?

I wonder "how" and "what" could make Raquel control Rachel body. despite both being vampires and Raquel being in BE world, I think, it is weird, and yet amazing, how she can... "interact" with BB world. If she were just a voice that follow/help Naoto, it is just simple and really fine by me, like in his Act 2. However her power goes beyond that, truly amazing in my opinion...

Another thing... Amane Astral isn't canon, I understand, but isn't weird that Raquel appears when Naoto is hit by the Astral? I mean, it is like her soul is... bound to his and make her appear, like what happens to Platinum, where Trinity came, and obviously Luna and Sena doesn't exist during that time.

It's likely the same Issue as with Ragna in CP, how could he be in Phase 0 when he comes from post time loop. It's better to not think about it to hard. It's likely a stable time loop that is currently unstable due to a "bug" in the system. Nine did give Naoto a warning in Act 1, that soon would this world be closed. That is likely the cause why the world vanished when that happened.

As for Raquel taking over Rachel, it might be something similar to Ragna and Naoto situation. It might be that she is temporary "overwriting" Rachel's personality to become Raquel. Raquel can likely only do it against Rachel, and Rachel can prevent it if she notice it. It seemed like Raquel was able to convince Rachel to allow her to talk with Naoto for one minute in act 3.

Not that weird really, it has no canon in it, but if there were it's simply that Naoto is dead, he can't exist on his own and Raquel is sharing her life with him. And not only that, Naoto's right arm is made out of Raquel's blood and their blood is mixing with each others' so Naoto does have parts of Raquel in him.

[Kenji Harima]

1 hour ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

So if Raquel is the Embryo/byproduct of the Azure/Embryo, maybe Rachel actually is the "good" representation of the Azure in the BB world in opposition to Izanami

I think that we should stay that Izanami is only a Drive of OPFD's soul (Noel) -> she is a "bad" representation of her so we can guess that Noel was suffering much in her original lifetime.

I never mixed up Azure and Master Unit cause the first thing it's more like a living sphere which contain souls, memories of these souls and has a power to create/destroy and like we see in some arcade endings it might has own consciousness when the second it's more like a device which give a possibility to managment by gaining power from this sphere and the Boundary. Sorry for a such short explanation.

 

In my opinon Rachel or better the Alucard Clan seem to be more like a protectors of not only the world but also but also the secrets of the Boundary. They have lived way before than any event from the game happened. Probably Rachel doesn't know as much as her father knew. The problem is that except of Rachel, Clavis and Raquel (who seems to be more like an Clavis' desire product) we haven't know yet any other vampires.

 

44 minutes ago, Zedar90 said:

As for Raquel taking over Rachel, it might be something similar to Ragna and Naoto situation. It might be that she is temporary "overwriting" Rachel's personality to become Raquel. Raquel can likely only do it against Rachel, and Rachel can prevent it if she notice it. It seemed like Raquel was able to convince Rachel to allow her to talk with Naoto for one minute in act 3.

 

And not only that, Naoto's right arm is made out of Raquel's blood and their blood is mixing with each others' so Naoto does have parts of Raquel in him.

+ They are in the specific Embryo where various worlds seem to be combined so it's possible.

Didn't Clavis improve it a little with his own blood?

[Zedar90]

1 minute ago, Kenji Harima said:

+ They are in the specific Embryo where various worlds seem to be combined so it's possible.

Didn't Clavis improve it a little with his own blood?

No, he didn't add anything to it. He only reattached it, but in a different way. The way he did it is much more dangerous then what Raquel did, but due to that it was mister Clavis Alucard he was able to do it.
After he reattached it, all the positive parts of turning into a vampire came to Naoto much earlier while the negative parts will take as long as before.
Make one mistake though, and Naoto might have become a monster vampire faster then in one year's time.

[MaximusMurkimus]

See, you mentioned that vampires in BB exist in the sense that they are capable of turning into the stereotypical blood suckers of literature lore.

This is clearly Mori playing his favorite tropes, but I'm curious as to what are vampires' true importance in the BB universe? Protecting the Master Unit? Rachel is noted as the leader of her family, but is she the ONLY member remaining? If Raquel exists, probably not. 

And here I was hoping "vampire" was only a descriptor name, like Izanami.

[Zedar90]

14 minutes ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

See, you mentioned that vampires in BB exist in the sense that they are capable of turning into the stereotypical blood suckers of literature lore.

This is clearly Mori playing his favorite tropes, but I'm curious as to what are vampires' true importance in the BB universe? Protecting the Master Unit? Rachel is noted as the leader of her family, but is she the ONLY member remaining? If Raquel exists, probably not. 

And here I was hoping "vampire" was only a descriptor name, like Izanami.

The only known vampires are Clavis and Raquel/Rachel. There are no other known vampires. And Clavis isn't natural born either, he was created due to somebody touched the azure a long time in the past. So it's not likely that they truly exist, they are a fantasy that was made into reality.
And Clavis doesn't seem to be interested to create more vampires, he even wants to erase himself. And the only reason he created Raquel was because he wanted to use the Embryo to get access to the Azure since the embryo is the key to the azure.

Oh yeah, Freaks was being called a vampire also, but he isn't really a vampire, he only bites people in the neck to drain seithr.

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

2 hours ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

So if Raquel is the Embryo/byproduct of the Azure/Embryo, maybe Rachel actually is the "good" representation of the Azure in the BB world in opposition to Izanami, which is why she is insistent on protecting the current world; that could be what the Azure wants to maintain order, since we're not entirely sure of what it wants aside from it being sentient. 

If this Mei in BE really is a different one based on the spelling, it could definitely be the entire BE world is a divergence of the BB world; XBlaze led to the current BlazBlue timeline, while XBlaze didn't quite happen exactly the way it did and the BE was the result. 

As far as we know, Clavis never had any wife/girlfriend/FWB/ONS who mothered Rachel and he isn't (as far as we know) an hermaphrodite either.

While Raquel's murky origins are rather known, we don't know about Rachel's but we do know that Clavis only grew old and died after the later.

My theory is that just like the wielder of Amaterasu can project her drive, so can the wielders of Susanoo and Tsukuyomi.

Rachel is actually the drive of Clavis Alucard (which is also the source of his vampire powers) made manifest and just like Izanami, she needs a vessel to physically exist.

In BEE, Clavis made Raquel from an embryo to serve as the vessel for his drive but since Naoto did not survive in the main BB timeline it's likely that Raquel died and Clavis made a new vessel which is the current Rachel we know.

The reason why Rachel has zero life force while Raquel has a massive one is because Raquel was read while Clavis was alive while Rachel was a projection from the future when Clavis was already dead.

The reason why Clavis died is explained by Izanami's arcade ending, despite Rachel being his drive she grew a soul of her own and became a real person. While that alone would not kill Clavis, since OPFD is still alive inside Amaterasu despite Izanami growing a soul, the moment he gave Tsukuyomi to Rachel he willingly sealed his own fate.

Since Rachel and Raquel are different forms of the same thing, they can temporarily override one another depending on whose existence is stronger at the time.

If this theory holds true, then it also explains Terumi's existence.

Terumi is actually the drive of Susanoo's former wielder who grew a soul and became a person like Rachel and Izanami. His normal state is a disembodied ghost who needs a host to interact with the world, however, because he has emotions and desires of his own he became a real person and can continue to exist and even self-observe long after his creator died.

[Kenji Harima]

14 minutes ago, Zedar90 said:

No, he didn't add anything to it. He only reattached it, but in a different way. The way he did it is much more dangerous then what Raquel did, but due to that it was mister Clavis Alucard he was able to do it.
After he reattached it, all the positive parts of turning into a vampire came to Naoto much earlier while the negative parts will take as long as before.
Make one mistake though, and Naoto might have become a monster vampire faster then in one year's time.

 

Thanks for an explanation. Internet contains "a few" translations but there are too many resemblances between. Enough for me to see it as a plagiary.

I was able to get some chapters but *ehkem* original japanese.

1 minute ago, Zedar90 said:

And Clavis is natural born either, he was created due to somebody touched the azure a long time in the past.

Lol someone wrote it in this topic but I have just forgotten. So now my "we haven't know yet" cracked up.

So it might be the same way with Valkenhayn and other beings who are outside of the logic.

[MaximusMurkimus]

Yeah, Izanami and Rachel do have a lot in common now that we know more about them, wouldn't be too far to assume that their origins are similar as well.

Could Saya T. be a failed/recreated Izanami vessel, then? Maybe that was the reason she had such a high Ars Magus aptitude; she couldn't handle it (and ended up wiping out her clan as a result) and since Izanami had BB's Saya she ended up being her own person with similar strength and different objectives. THE PIECES ARE COMING TOGETHER, MORI

[JustaMaskedFreak]

39 minutes ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

Could Saya T. be a failed/recreated Izanami vessel, then? Maybe that was the reason she had such a high Ars Magus aptitude; she couldn't handle it (and ended up wiping out her clan as a result) and since Izanami had BB's Saya she ended up being her own person with similar strength and different objectives. THE PIECES ARE COMING TOGETHER, MORI

We can't count victory yet. Story Mode is yet to come. It may provide many answers, but Mori can twist things up later.

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

1 hour ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

Yeah, Izanami and Rachel do have a lot in common now that we know more about them, wouldn't be too far to assume that their origins are similar as well.

Could Saya T. be a failed/recreated Izanami vessel, then? Maybe that was the reason she had such a high Ars Magus aptitude; she couldn't handle it (and ended up wiping out her clan as a result) and since Izanami had BB's Saya she ended up being her own person with similar strength and different objectives. THE PIECES ARE COMING TOGETHER, MORI

It is likely that Saya Terumi is to the current Saya what Raquel is to Rachel, a previous vessel which died before producing results.

Both Saya Terumi and Raquel depend upon Naoto's survival for their own, in any timeline where he dies so do they and Izanami and Rachel are thus returned into their ghostly partially existing forms until their new respective vessels are born/made.

If Terumi is an existence likes this then it makes sense that he hates Rachel so much, unlike Izanami whose creator is still alive, both of them are disembodied drives of dead people who knew the truth about the world yet she tries to save it while he wants to wreck it.

Terumi represents everything Rachel would be if she gave up hope and turned against the world. Rachel is arrogant, knowledgeable and manipulative like Terumi and she also has a side full of bloodlust and sadism, like him, which she suppresses in a display of boredom rather than psychotic rage.

Since Terumi can't comprehend good, seeing someone like him acting in a completely different way which helps people drives him to utter disgust.

[MaximusMurkimus]

That's a good idea, but it wouldn't explain why current Rachel is a Chronophantasma and Izanami isn't. 

Matter of fact, why does Rachel have to be a Chronophantasma? Does this allow her to intervene freely? Why wouldn't she return to a more stable form so that she can spam Tsukuyomi without more concern?

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

1 minute ago, MaximusMurkimus said:

That's a good idea, but it wouldn't explain why current Rachel is a Chronophantasma and Izanami isn't. 

Matter of fact, why does Rachel have to be a Chronophantasma? Does this allow her to intervene freely? Why wouldn't she return to a more stable form so that she can spam Tsukuyomi without more concern?

Rachel is not a Chronophantasma, that's a cloned soul from someone from a different time period. Her case is more like reincarnation where you die in the present but your soul moves into a new version of you living in the future.

Rachel is an alternate existence to Raquel just like Saya Terumi is an alternate existence to the BB Saya.

Rachel and Raquel's soul are one and the same, the Drive from Clavis Alucard made manifest by the Tsukuyomi Unit.

The difference is that in any timeline where Naoto dies, so does Raquel and this means Clavis goes on to create the current Rachel at a later date.

The timeline of BEE is one in which Naoto survives and so does Raquel, thus Clavis doesn't need to create Rachel and the former overrides the later.

[FKGunBlaze]

Just now, 1337 H@x0r said:

Well...

Rachel is not a Chronophantasma, that's a cloned soul from someone from a different time period. Her case is more like reincarnation where you die in the present but your soul moves into a new version of you living in the future.

She is a Chronophantasma (Phantom of Time), just not a Celica-style Chronophantasma (One Who Should not be Here).

[1337 H@x0r]

Well...

Just now, GunBlazer said:

She is a Chronophantasma (Phantom of Time), just not a Celica-style Chronophantasma (One Who Should not be Here).

Is she? Where did they state that?

What I got was that Naoto was a Chronophantasma. He, like Celica, is a person who should be dead in the current timeline but still exists with all of his memories thank to being forced there agaisnt the world's logic.