[AC] AC: Matchup Guide/Discussion

[Doomscyther]

Prey for FD bug ftw

[4r5]

Nobody said Anji is low tier. And nobody said Johnny has the advantage over Anji. All I said was that Johnny vs Anji was a lot less demanding on my head.

Oh, and be careful about confusing good players with good characters.

Btw If I may qoute something from 4r5 video he posted (4r5 vs Mr Mammation).

""Eddie can not safely summon Liitle Eddie into kick attack off a block string, is something I need to remember for the future.""

Never noticed it before.

I think you can jump out of all Little Eddie summons chained off a block string. Not sure yet, I'll try next chance I get.

Potemkin: Back in Slash (and possible earlier GG's) if you timed a forward walk (NOT a forward dash) the moment Slide Head hits the ground, you won't get knocked down. It was a handy trick. I haven't tested to see if this works in AC.

[Doomscyther]

Well my brother plays ino as a main, and I have strats on how to beat Ino with JO, though I would like to post video if I could get my 4way distribution amplifier working. 2k will go through mid lvl note and higher. 2S is probaly the best poke you can do cause most of Ino good combos seem to start with low hits or that slide thing she does which when blocked its still safe for Ino. I plan on recording the matches soon hopefully some time this week.

[Mitsurugi]

I don't have solid strategy against AC PO myself, haven't play that much but the only time I fought him was really painful (Giganter > Slide Head trap; 6H > Slide Head then HF Break, 5K, 2S, Heat Knuckle, okizeme; etc), but here are some random tips, not necessarily good and maybe bad. If the Potemkin player does 6H > 236P on your wake-up and you normally block it (obviously also possible if you IB or SB it), you could also forward dash during the small gap between those two hits and begin your pressure, if not too far when blocking the 6H. If you are in range and are fast enough to hit as soon as your hop finishes, you can hit him in his Slide Head recovery. Yep, the smiley one (>_<) is right, I also use a lot of as-low-to-the-ground-as-possible-j.S while staying at j.S max range to keep him at distance and if it hits or hits him during a HammerFall, cancel it into Ensenga. Be careful though as if you are too close and he does HF, it will hit you. And keep an eye on his Tension Meter, you wouldn't want to be caught by his HPB (his aerial Overdrive) whil doing some random and poorly done j.S A change I notice (maybe an impression), it seems harder to cancel a poke by a coin against his HammerFall while remaining unharmed. The coin hit him as a normal (autoguard being removed by the poke before) BUT his HF still touches me. It surely is because HF is not used as far away anymore, its distance being shortened (and maybe got faster ?). On a side note, his HF Break is faster and has less recovery now. On his wake-up, I tend to stay out of reach of the PB and poke him without being bustered (careful as poking may extend your hitbox). As usual, MC your pokes unless you cancel it by a special move. Don't poke if he has 50% Tension, as he could do a reversal Giganter (the blue Glass) with the painful follow-up or a 6H while floating. While risky if spotted, poke > MC > dash throw seems to work pretty well if not abused, at least against the player I had some freeplay against. In the corner, Enkasu (the one I use : throw j.PPSDE(1)) then Bacchus or coin (and potentially tech throw). By the way, what is the FD bug mentioned earlier ?

[Doomscyther]

You can youtube it but its like you can (if im not mistaken) FD his combo say 6hs > slidehead and you will not be affected by slidehad while standing. Also you can whiff a 5k before he wakes up then J.hs KJFRC combo(if he tends to potbuster alot on wake up), but watch out for his backstep, if you see him do it either air backdash faling j.s or quick Foward airdash j.k

[Doomscyther]

Omg venom is a fking pain in teh ass to fight. Its like "High im a venom player, and Im jsut gonna sit there and wait till u get closer so I can spam 2S or 2D while you dash for WD over to me. If you try to jump, Ill just spam my 6P and or 6HS. Btw let me toss out an dark angel so you can either loose tension to FD, chip ur life, or if you jump, start setuping up balls while I get ready to hit/whiff a 2P or 6hs" I swear its hard out there for a pirate pimp to beat a necrofiliac fag (excuse my langauge).

[Rift]

To beat Venom, you essentially have to stay in close range, and on the offensive as much as humanly possible. Johnny can't outpoke Venom, they both have incredible reach, so you have no advantage there, but the main things Johnny can do better than Venom are 1) control the air and 2) deal damage. So if you think your enemy is about to do a 6p,6h anti air, try DBFRC for a knockdown, then start your offense. All you can do in this match is force Venom onto the defense. Save your burst for escaping pressure, or a corner combo. Venom's damage at midscreen is not anything to get worried about. DAA is a worthwhile investment in this matchup. For the most part just FD Dark Angel, it's not worth the risk of trying to go over it and getting caught in a multi ball setup that results in massive damage.

[Doomscyther]

I already do all of that, im just saying the battle against venom is so annoying. I have no idea what you mean by JO controlling the air better then JO.

[JOFan]

I have no idea what you mean by JO controlling the air better then JO.

where does he say that?

anyhow, u need more jackhound! vary up ur timing by using j.hs kjfrc!

[Doomscyther]

Johnny can't outpoke Venom, they both have incredible reach, so you have no advantage there, but the main things Johnny can do better than Venom are 1) control the air and 2) deal damage.

.

got it from wiki.

Fyi im trying not to use MSJH untill the american release and its in there.

[4r5]

MistStace JackHound isn't in the game already? Or do you mean HackHound? (Which has reportedly been fixed in the USA version.) Fairly certain that Venom controls the air much better then Johnny. You know, balls bouncing around and all. If you ever get into a position to DB or KJ a Venom player, then either the Venom player screwed up and deserves to get hit, or you worked very hard and deserve that hit. Note to self; when back in town, check to see if DB can remove hit potential from more then one projectile.

[frcflyingjohnny]

Against venom, you can trade hits easy with coin. If he throws a slew of ballz at you, do a lv2Kmf. After trading hits a couple times in a match with a coin, it will screw with your opponent. Also, learning how to IB airhits and airdash after will help you also.

[JOFan]

help ar. anji 5p stuff me out of air options outside of dbfrc ar. am i positioning myself wrong ar or just some kinda timing issue with j.hs ar? ar ar ar. -__-; also ar...how does one punish a blocked fujin ar?

[4r5]

Can we get some context? Like, is the 5P part of a tech trap? Or is everything totally neutral and you are just jumping in and he's 5Ping you out of you j.HS? And no internet for me till I get back home, friday evening

[4r5]

Time/position your j.HS so that his 5P whiffs and you j.HS hits.

[JOFan]

awesome.. this forum just died off or something lo. is there any safe one-hit setup after mist? or after mist frc? i am talking about setups similar to the ones in slash where u can mist then add 5k or 2s to lock the opponent in place for the unblockable. also.. at which point in anji's corner pressure is it escapable via fd or ib? the anji i play against locks me in corner with butterfly after knockdown.. i can block all low against it and watch for the overhead tap but i want to do something more than just blocking that all day long... >_>;

[Dark Man X]

besides blocking, you can see what normals he's using to autoguard your moves..if you can recognize them, punish him. also, if you IB the first hit of butterfly. you can TRY to escapce with JH, jump, etc...just be careful cuz if the anji player anticipates it, you eat a fat combo...

[DumJumJimmyWum]

ok, so zappa has a weee hit box. How the hell do i combo better after LV2 MF(S) connects? starting with punch/slash doesn't always work. jumping straight up instead of back doesn't work. standing c(s) doesn't always work. @__@ I keep dropping the combo and it's so hard to get to zappa in the first place it's frustrating =**(

[4r5]

Follow ups from a LMF2 varies with distance. Near point blank, you get nothing.

Here's a quick vid to help ya out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCPuZJRpuBI

[Line]

After I block Jam's 214k, and she lands in front of me, I always feel like I have enough time to throw out a 5k. I always get owned by her 5k though. Am I just throwing it out too late, should I be using a different move, or should I just keep blocking?

[4r5]

[ignore this. My brain was on hiatus.] Jam's Gekirin (j.214K) inflicts 12 frames of block stun, on a normal guard. And she has 10 frames of landing recovery. Her 5K is 5 frames startup. Johnny's 5K is 6f. If she could some how instantly land on the ground after hitting you, you're still ahead by 3 frames. You can tag her with a 5K, but you got a 2 frame window of opportunity. 3f if you use a 5framer, like 5P, 2P, or 2HS. An Instant Block will buy you 3 more frames.

[Line]

This should probably go in the stupid question section, but I'm going to ask here anyway. Where can I get frame data? And I'm not completely understanding how you got your result, so let me see if I can walk through this. Jam inflicts 12 block stun, 10 landing recovery: So by the time she lands, I'm still blocking for 2 frames. Her 5k is 5 frame startup, my 5k is 6f startup. That means by the time I finish blocking, her 5k is 2 frames in and has 3 frames to go. My 5k has yet to come out. I stick out my 5k, but 3 frames into its startup, she tags me with her 5k while I still have 3 frames left to go. It looks like I"m at a frame disadvantage. Where did I mess this up?

[4r5]

Frame data right here. I'm in the process of double checking it. (Johnny data has been corrected and is all good... as far as I know)

http://www.dustloop.com/data/ac/select.html

I've got no way of figuring the time it takes from her hitting you to her landing, to calculate how much remaining block stun you have. The best we can do is assume that she lands instantly, and thus starts her landing recovery instantly, after she hits you.

So under this assumption,

She hits you and lands instantly. Now she has 10 frames of recovery, while you have 12 frames of blocking.

This is where I realize I made a mistake. Sorry. Under my hypothetical situation, Jam should be at +2 and you have no way of retaliating.

But luckily for us Jam doesn't land instantly. Between her hitting you and her landing, some of that 12f block stun wears off and Jam is at disadvantage. By how much? Don't know. But I'm doing Jam's ad.214K as best I can, to produce the lowest hitting Gekirin I can muster. And I'm able to CH her 5K with my 5K.

Still a rather small window of opportunity. An IB will guarantee a 5f move, even under my hypothetical situation. Against her 5K, anyways. Her 5P is a 3-framer and her 2P is a 4-framer. I guess there's always backdash. Oh, and throw or OD.

[Zenmetsu]

Well, I'm a Jam player, and I've played a variety of different Johnnys and I live with a Johnny player too, so let me just start off by saying that tossing numbers and frame data isn't too important for this specific situation. In the end, the only thing that matters is how deep Jam did her IAD 214K and if you IBed or not. Those two things are going to determine whether you can successfully slip a 2HS in the pressure or not. If she does it too deep and if you IBed, then that's a free throw attempt for you because she's in massive recovery. If she does it at max distance, then this would be a good time to consider 2HS'ing. Also, try not to use his 5K as a pressure stopper for this situation. You'll find that it's not as reliable when Jam starts doing more than just 5King after landing. 2HS is a better rush stopper in my opinion. Just remember that the only drawback is that Jam can parry this if she expects it. However, as a Johnny player try not to get into situations where Jam is IAD 214King you. Johnny is one of the better characters at keeping Jam out. 6P obviously stops low IAD attempts, and Johnny's 5P also happens to be good at dealing with IAD, jump-ins, and also handles Jam's obscure cross-ups automatically. If Jam mistimes her 214K on your wakeup even by a few frames, Johnny has enough time and airthrow range to throw her out of her 214K (the motion is just 7+HS). Also, if Jam tries to IAD 214K you on your wakeup in the corner, you can backdash it in most cases because that move isn't meaty, and Johnny's got a decent backdash. Some other random Johnny vs Jam tips: If Jam is running towards you and if you're expecting her to throw out a generic normal poke (like max distance 2D, 2S, 5K, 6P), Johnny's 2HS, 5HS, and even f.5S are all very good at CHing her. Throwing out Johnny's 6P when you're both on the ground will either lose or at best clash with Jam's 6P, and it will lose to 2D no question so I never see Johnny players have much luck with that (it's strictly for anti-air). If you think Jam's going to 2D, then Johnny's 6HS is extremely effective, and it leads into all kinds of follow up combos if you're willing to take that risk. If you time all your Johnny pokes right, you'll soon find out that Jam's only answer for her ground game is to either running parry all your mid moves, dash brake and backdash your moves and punish, or wait for tension. (Just keep in mind that Johnny's 2HS and 5HS, although great rushdown stoppers, are only active for a few frames so it's very easy for Jam with her fast backdash to dodge these and punish... this is where you start poking with 2D).

[Line]

Thanks for both replies. Really helpful. One more. Is there some trick to being able to air throw more often on reflex, or do I need to predict it?