[AC] AC: Matchup Guide/Discussion

[4r5]

If you don't already know, you gotta be lower then them in order to air throw someone. Reflexes are reflexes. If you don't got the reaction then you use setups and anticipation. Other then that, keep a look out for good opportunities. Helpful hint, keep track of their remaining doublejumps/airdashes and if they are in the startup or recovery of something. You don't want them moving away or sticking an attack in your path, when you try to air throw them. If you time it right, yes.

[DumJumJimmyWum]

wow, thanks so much 4r5. continuing with Zappa - 1) since you can't TK Ensenga a crouching Zappa, frame trap is the best option because he can just watch for throws? 2) are there any easy punishes/counters against the summons? I have a really hard time with the ghosts..... I know you can OD one of the sword moves =) 3)What do you do against Raoh. I just cry like a little girl and try to run away =( SRK +RC = combo of death+invinc+no punish on block?

[frcflyingjohnny]

Well if he gets the dog, you're pretty much fucked for free hits. So just go ahead and take the dog out as fast as possible. Do a 6H or 5H mc to frametrapzapp/getridofthedog. All JO's pressure works on zapp except TK ensenga. So do 5D more often. If he gets ghost, wait for a horizontal/ground ghost, JO jumps, here you airdash if you see him miss the frc blue timing. So if you jump and see zapp frc, dash back. If he throws a ghost straight up, RUSH HIS ASS GET HIM. Do this till he runs out of ghosts(TEMP) RUSH HIS ASS RUSH HIM HARD. tick throw his ass. Do a lot of jDBfrc for pressure. If you haven't used 6+ coins yet in this match you didn't win.

[4r5]

You can tkEnsenga Zappa. Just do it lowest. I haven't gotten alot of Zappa experience since #r. Generally, if he gets a summon, play safe, be patient, wait for an opportunity to get rid of his summon. Don't let him get the orbs for raoh.

[Mitsurugi]

Thanks Zenmetsu for the hints against Jam. 4r5 and DumJum, from point blank or with a small distance, you can combo after a MF-S(2). You just have to know you must hit facing your opponent and not as a cross-up hit. Meaning you may have to wait a bit before jumping, allowing JO to jump forward, facing Zappa. For instance you are 1P, meaning facing right. Try point point blank 5H > MF-S(Lv2) then jumping "backwards" (direction = 7, what was backwards during the MF, but has become forward when your recovery ends) as usual and input j.K. You'll see that you will be facing the opponent, since he "crossed" you early (thanks to you being close to him), during the MF vacuum effect. Then usual combos. This exemple is good for understanding since you are so close that don't have to wait for JO to automatically turn around. Too bad I can't make videos too as 4r5, those are really useful to understand easily one's post. Since I am not sure about what you meant by "from point blank", (with or without gatlings before ?) I just covered both, just in case. Should you land a point blank MF-S(2) without a poke or gatling before, you can do a facing j.S. But it can only combo into Ens or j.H (with no follow-up after, j.D, KJ, Ens, DB or JC > dj.S all whiff). Then again, chances to score a point blank MF-S(2) are close to null, specially since we don't want to use it that way. As for TK Ensenga and as already pinpointed, against crouching ZA, you have to do it as low to the ground as possible. Distance is also a factor. The flames of this special are quite deceiving. It gives the impression of having a huuuuge hitbox but while it still has good range, then inner part of the "circle" drawn by the flames aren't the hittable box. So if you are doing already at the lowest height, it may be because you are too close. Other than that, I don't have that much experience against ZA players myself too, all versions included (#R, / and ^).

[4r5]

Hey, good looking out. When I say point blank, I mean as close as possible. Also, you know you've done the lowest possible tkEnsenga when there is no jump cloud.

[A3Religion]

The hardest part I find especially dealing with Zappa is his Dog Summon. The Far s. can be beat with a coin, a tk ensenga, or a mf k. For easy damage, since his hit box is pretty big in the air you can do the K-HS-KJT-KJ frc into air combo is choice for 200 damage for 25% Tension. Regardless I need some other tips in dealing with Zappa so please bring the ideas.

[CrimsonDisaster]

2H and 2S are pretty good against Zappa, except he can run up 5K your 2S. Ghosts are the biggest pain in my experience, though Dog is a close second. The problem with Ghosts is that Zappa doesn't really have to fight you anymore once he gets them out safely. Other than patience and using stuff like jS and 236P to hit him from far away, you pretty much just want to avoid getting killed by a billion random low damage hits. Just don't commit to big moves like 5H, 6H, TK Ensenga, any Transport because you are probably going to run into a ghostring or a golf ball/flower pot and get frustrated. Dog... don't commit to big moves to kill the Dog, and don't go out of your way to kill the Dog when Zappa is chasing it. If there's a lot of space between Zappa and the Dog, feel free to 2P it or something... or go after Zappa if you have that kind of space. f.S is pretty bad against the Dog (and Zappa in general =/ ) but 2S is alright. I like to jump and airdash back whenever I have space, then I wait to see where Zappa goes from there... if he starts charging straight at me, I've been doing jump -> airdash (not IAD) to dodge Dog 6D to go straight for Zappa (usually with DB FRC). If he hangs back and sends the Dog out first (ie. looks like he's attacking with the Dog and not just sacrificing it for orbs) then I'll superjump and airdash... generally that'll take you out of range for the next Dog attack and gives you at least one shot at Zappa. If he sits there and waits... then shrug. Wait more and try to bait him into committing first. If you NEED to attack, throw a coin from right outside its max range or so FROM THE DOG. If you space it well, it should hit any Dog attack that would threaten your approach, then just go from there. Sword... eh. I dunno, haven't played against AC sword enough with JO lately. Other than new combos and better mixups, it's the same ol' sword in terms of your general gameplan... safe pokes, don't jump at him, be mindful of uppercut FRC. 2S is still a decent way to stop him from running in. You MIGHT want to risk moves like 5H against his pokes, simply for the pay-off. Also coins are good if you get into a poking fight. Raoh... bleh. Block. If you can block Dusts, great. Force him to waste time and bar on blocked supers- yeah it burns your tension and/or chips you a bunch but that's better than dying in one combo, and that's 50% tension he's not using to kill you in one combo or to do uppercut RC. If you're feeling gutsy you can try hitting him out of Dusts (Jackhound, if you're super gutsy). Please please please do not tech OTGs in the corner. Better to deal with the mixup than just die for free. Also remember to FD when you try to jump out of pressure- uppercut, Raoh-doken and all the Raoh-doken extensions need to be FD'd in the air... and eating any of those while airborne sucks. If you aren't being cornered and if he isn't in an immediate position to rush you down, then just make him chase you a bit, but do NOT jump without the intention of either doing high up DB FRC or FDing. Not worth the risk- how much damage are you going to do to him? (200-250ish if you land a jump-in) How much is he going to do to you? (you die ahahaha) shrug dunno how much that helps, a lot of it seems like common sense because I play against Zappa so much but hopefully something in there is useful for y'all.

[JOFan]

Just some thought on the ZA matchup following up what other had said against dog i find doing double jump dbfrc on the way down to be most effective. also i use short strings like 5k, into 5p or into coin cuz our local zappa player tend to try punishing with dog after a blocked move so it sometimes tag the dog. 2p works really well against dog if zappa doesnt space himself rit and sent the doggy over with any cover. against ghost i jump a lot less cuz ghost throw covers a lot of range in the air. iad hs to punish zappa ghost throw works for me since u can take advantage of his recovery if he does the wrong ghost throw. msjh is good for punishing the whiffed ghost throw too as its fast and covers a lot of distance. in general DA is also a good way to remove summons too!

[burningvigor]

how do you go about beating millia with johnny? It seems like i can never go on the offensive or keep momentum. Yes its been discussed before, but i think a more in depth discussion is necessary. Her dash in can go under the coins. She jumps fast so i cant lockdown. Her constant air attacks are really annoying. Air kick wins everything... standing far S wiffs if she crouches.. k mist finer wiffs if she crouches.. worst part is you cant coin her from a throw unless uhh corner 1 hit but still... Is she the only char that cant get coined from a throw?? Yeah i know one mistake on her part = 240 damage but she has way more opportunities to get you with her speed and pin. Fucken pin. Whats the match up in favor for anyways? Feels like 7 to 3 or 6 to 4 millias favor. Shes so fast ahh.

[Mitsurugi]

BurningVigor, Millia isn't the only character you can't coin after a throw, A.B.A, Baiken and Dizzy fit in this category too.

As a quick reminder, some useful stuff can be found here > AC Johnny gameplay specifics <

EDIT : thanks to both 4r5 and you for hosting JO matches and CM vids !

[waraboushi]

uh, how should we play aganist testament? Is there any option during the Zeinest okizeme or barney FRC pressure strings? My only options to win are some random TK ensenga and if I land an Enkasu/5K connects...

[4r5]

Fighting against testament. Best I've come up with so far is to maintain a position just outside of Forward EXE Beast range. If he does Back EXE, move forward. If he does Front EXE, If you see it early enough, CH 6K or dash through it, or IAD. Or Lv2MF through it, tkEnsenga over it, whatever. If he doesn't do an EXE, then do whatever as appropriate. When Testament gets 25% meter (like with any character) it kind throws a wrench into this, be on the look out. If Testament gets away an starts up his garden, then it's just a whole lot of funny business. Get whacking, don't let it build up into a jungle. Zeinest oki, you either block or reversal with a backdash/OD/goldBurst. If you burst, you still have to deal with the net on the way down, which leads you back into either blocking or reversaling it. Be warned that Test's 6P can clash with OD. And a very deep 2D can make OD whiff. Best solution is to just not get knocked down... EXE(frc) pressure. Critical points to look for are either before the EXE hits or after it hits. Depending on the position, it's either one or the other; or both, if it's really bad positioning. I've been told, you can always jump out (watch out for anti-jump measures). It's been awhile since I fought a really good Testament, so I'm not sure if there are situations where you can always attack out, or if my opponent is just being sloppy. FD Testament, but not the EXE, to foul up his positioning. IB to increase the size of your window of opportunity.

[waraboushi]

thanks as always 4r5! I'll put at test soon didn't know of backdash uses like this, ehehe

[Mitsurugi]

Time to fill this more than important section.

Even if it is "only" little tricks and not fully written strategies, even if you think it is trivial, already on vids and what else, post it !

The following only results from personal experience against the players I fought and may not be universal. Hence, they can be really bad pieces of advice.

Few things on top of my head at the moment.

All chars with shoryu :

3H on their wake-up with appropriate spacing if you think or know they will reversal with it.

AB :

After having blocked the first hit of Danzai, either immediately 6K before the second hit or SB it.

AN :

When he performs Fuujin (236S or 236HS), block it then if he does the H or D (Force Break) follow-up, 2K or 2D it as soon as you see it for a CH. Continue with whatever you want, for instance :

- 2K > c.S > 2D > coin

- 2D, MC~K > H > MF-P(2).

Damn, I should have noticed that sooner because the only few times I met an Anji, the two players completely raped me. Not only were they good players but I also lack knowledge on this character (and many others).

Any help would be welcome, I really don't understand how he works, how he attacks and how JO has to attack and defend.

EDIT : forgot to say that I painfully learned he has a really good j.D. It becomes hard to airthrow him thanks to it and if he whiffs it, he can still hit you while falling.

JO :

If he throws a coin, 6K will go under it and land a nice CH if properly timed.

OS :

5K stops all Rock It poke attempt, even 5K on reaction. The sprite is pretty deceptive as it seems JO gets hit by the flaming fist. At least against RI used as a poke. Granted depending on the distance, you may not be able to combo or get a knockdown but that really helps breaking his rhythm/losing the pace.

PO :

If he uses blocked 6H > Slide Head, you could still dash forward without IB the 6H and punish him with whatever you want. The timing is tricky but doable. IB is a better solution but when you see you haven't IB the 6H, you can still get out of it. Don't know if my opponents made a 1 or 2 frame delay or not before canceling into SH but I have done it several times already.

[4r5]

While my course website is down, and I'm unable to study for my exam :8/:, I did a bit more work on this thread. At about Danzai's max range, there is nothing you can do but OD, or trade with 2HS. At less then min range, you can block the first hit then walk forward and let the second hit whiff. At about 5K's max range, nearly everything you have beats out nearly everything HOS can do, from the ground. Problem is keeping that range, and HOS jumping around all over the place, and his DP too. Gunblaze, also, sometimes causes trouble. You can Backdash/forwarddash between 6HS>SlideHead all you want. A 1 or 2 frame delay makes no difference. But if he delays it so much as to catch you while you are in recover of your dash... but then you shouldn't of dashed in the first place and then he won't of SlideHead. Because you should be timing your dash to his SlideHead and there was no SlideHead to dash, and he would be timing his SlideHead to your dash but there was no dash to SlideHead. And now I'm late to class.

[waraboushi]

Well, following Mitsurugi's post, I'll put some things too:

AN:

-When he starts Shitsu pressure (236+P/D), you can IB the butterfly and use 6K to anything, or 2P/2HS. If you have LV2MF, you can block/IB/FD and immediately MFLV2(S) to air combo. When you hit AN, the butterfly will disappear (not sure for FB version)

-As with BA and TE, Mist canceling the normals will make AN counter moves defendable

-When doing JO coin/MC pressure with defended gatlings, try 5K, 5HS, DBT or KJT depending on your position. If AN does nothing, land and proceed with the pressure. If you see any reaction, retaliate with DB/KJ. Both moves beat Anji's air throw On (623+K). This works on more chars as well

CH:

-Use f.S to 6HS on max distance often. Even if CH instant block f.S, at max distance 6HS will beat most things and give a good combo afterwards. Make sure to MC if both moves are defended

-If you're in LV3MF, when CH attempts Genrouzan throw, you have a free Coinjack combo. When you see the leaves, immediate 5K, 5HS, MFLV3(P), late Coin, MSJH, Mist. If you're too close to CH, stick a 5P before the 5K.

-2 Tension Free Enkasu after CH does wake-up Beta Blade: 3HS(2nd hit on counter), MC, j.P, j.K, j.S, j.D, Enkasu and 3HS(2nd hit on counter), MC, c.S, IAD, j.P, j.S, j.D, Enkasu

PO:

-After Enkasu and Mist in corner, IAD to j.K, j.P, 5K, c.S, MFLV2(K). Best option to avoid Potemkin Buster

-Easy corner tensionless Enkasu: 6K, MSD(P), late release P for MFLV1, j.K, j.S, j.D, Enkasu

-f.S at max distance work wonders as mist okizeme as well

SL:

-after a defended Mappa punch, 2S to combo

-to avoid okizeme such as 6K(whiff or hit), dust, dash and D-step, 2HS is good. If you have 50% tension to spare, RC it to 5HS, MF and combo

SO:

-6P beats Bandit Bringer(if SO is very close) and Riot stamp.

-After JO pressure strings, if SO is in defensive crouch, throw a coin and IAD. When the coin hits SO, do a j.HS to KJ combo. If SO retaliate with Volcanic Viper, just FD and wait for the landing for a crouched combo (actually usable with all shoryu type chars

-Sore ga Ore no na da OD hits SO from okizeme 6HS and close 2D

TE:

-2HS to dust or RC and combo to escape the okizeme pressure and deal some good damage

-One great move to use with TE is to enter mist stance, and backdash jackhound to combo whenever he tries stuff such as EXE beast, slow moves, dust attack. Unless you're in corner, go for MF(S) to surprise and combo if you get the chance

<- LOL

[Rift]

2HS RC really gets you out of TE's net oki? Man, if this works, this helps me alot in the TE matchup.

[4r5]

2HS does not get you out of Testament's net oki, or anyone else's oki. 2HS is 5 frame startup with no invincibility, a properly timed meaty will beat it every time.

[Mitsurugi]

Thanks for the inputs guys !

IN :

- General strats against her : when blocking her pressure game on your wakeup, always FD it so that it pushes her too far for continuing her best guessing game. She will then have to dash again in order to keep going. Now is the chance to either punish or flee (Super Jump FD then Airdash for example, despite her better airthrow range, she should be too far to catch you).

- If she does her 41236S/HS move that hits low when she moves forward in a low stance (Stroke the Big Tree), you can CH her on reaction with 2H before the FRC point comes out.

OS :

According to LM_Akira in the OS forums, if he is doing a BHB AC (doing the move then cancel it into charge) you can do a KJT > KJ on reaction to punish it if he doesn't FRC the charge.

Waraboushi >

PO :

- If you use IAD j.K etc. on his wake-up, chances are he will backdash > PB you since he will have time to spot the IAD (you have to perform it before he gets to the reversal point). As against many dangerous chars on their wakeup, I use 3H from farther than PB range though I sometimes got caught because 3H seems to move JO's hittable and throwable box forward. Then again, if you anticipate him to do that, it works.

- Gambling option too here if I'm pretty sure he will do a reversal PB : dash > throw or sometimes dash > combo if you don't screw the dash timing. Though I use it because I know the player does that. Against PO players I don't know, 3H or staying outside of PB range and push him to make a mistake while building his guard gauge (usual MC stuff, frame trap etc).

Don't remember if 3H stuffs Hammerfall 1-hit super armor [memo to self, check that later].

SO :

Unfortunately the good SO I often play don't use 6H on oki nor 2D too close knowing a JO with 50% Tension is dangerous on wakeup. There are few characters on which reversal OD will whiff if they perform their OD-baiting move correctly due to their low profile : AX, OS, SO, VE and maybe others.

Others clash with it too such as TE's 6P if properly spaced.

3H saves my day in this match-up.

4r5 > Sorry, I did not understand your part about PO's Slide Head except that even if the opponent doesn't delay the SH cancel, dash is possible. That was what I was unsure about, thanks for clarifying it. Through Dustloop forums, I kept reading you had to IB the 6H in order to be able to backdash hence I was not certain my opp. did the cancel as soon as possible since noone hardly mentioned it can be without IB.

I however think it is pretty easy to visually confirm if PO cancels into SH in order to dash or not, to react accordingly.

[4r5]

6HS>SlideHead - Everybody is able to block it then backdash. Not everybody is able to block it then jump, some characters have to instant block to jump out of it. Don't worry about the other stuff I said. And I guess while I'm still here I'll shot-down/point-out some of the bad/good advice before people get the wrong/right idea. Sol - A properly meatied 2D will always beat out a reversal OD on wakeup. So will a properly meatied, and spaced, 6HS. But a Sol really shouldn't try to bait your OD with a 6HS, because you have to be in throw range to do it, and your first reaction should be wakeup throw, not wakeup OD. Order-Sol - LM_Akira is very correct. Since a whiffed BHB into AC is, at least, a total of 56 frames, that's alot of time to do alot of things to Order-Sol. Potemkin - 3HS will beat HammerFall, if you catch him early enough with the first hit. Which can be a hard thing to do in and of its self. Slayer - Blocking a MappaPunch does not guarantee a 2S. At best, IBing a poorly spaced MappaPunch (P version) will net you a free 2P. Or 5K, if you IBed a poorly spaced K version of MappaPunch. Like I said about 2HS and Testament, if you are getting away with 2HSing on wakeup, then your opponents aren't doing their oki correctly.

[LM_Akira]

Order-Sol - LM_Akira is very correct. Since a whiffed BHB into AC is, at least, a total of 56 frames, that's alot of time to do alot of things to Order-Sol.

Yes, that is with the fastest possible timing of AC, the slowest possible timing of AC could lead to a massive 72 frames of recovery! (without FRC)

[waraboushi]

thanks 4r5 and mitsurugi for pointing it out my bad things! the TE oki part, I meant it after you defend the zeinest and the gatling behind it, where you get a little bit of time to react, by jumping, or 2P, or 2HS, sorry for being vague about potemkin okizeme, a properly done backdash can escape PB?

[Mitsurugi]

Yep, on your wakeup, you can "reversal" backdash to avoid PB. Otherwise, that would be an unblockable on chars having no DP or fast OD ! You have to be cautious since PO can bait you to backdash and punish it with 6H (ouch). Hope to meet a HOS player soon to try this KJ trick out, thanks again. I guess from a distance, manual charge is a better option for OS ?

[LM_Akira]

In Slash, whiffing Lv1 BHB AC on the other side of the screen twice was probably the most direct way of reaching Lv2. In AC this tactic is less used...it's still ok to use once in a while but it is actually highly punishable without the FRC, meaning it shouldn't be used in a neutral situation too much. So yeah, manual charge at a distance is probably better.