Sophisticat Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 I suggest Matchup sub-forum be separated by game version. It appears to me to require the least amount of effort to implement, too.
4r5 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 anything more then creating/deleting/merging/renaming threads is outside of jG's control. more sub-forums you'll want to bring it up over at the 'Site Feedback & Suggestions' forum. What we did for GG was, well, nothing. AC is the only GG widely available stateside. And the playerbase was different then too, with everyone simply moving on to the latest iteration. So forums for older iterations was never an issue. No telling how the BB playerbase will take to new iterations. If we follow TZ.com's example, they offer old forums as a courtesy, but they also have ads and premium service to help supplement the cost. We (trag) struggle (apathetically?) to keep our servers running. (trag says you can bug him about giving him money) if you bring this up, consider these two points. edit: also, jG, I wasn't suggesting you do so. I was telling you to do so.
MisoSowee Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 Yeah but if we just let them loose I can see a lot of the CS matchup threads being "bogged down" Imo it's better to just merge CT into one thread, so discussion can easier be sparked in CS instead, and so it looks, in general, cleaner.
4r5 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 merging all the ct threads in to one thread would look horrible, and would be a headache for anyone trying to use it. if you're worried about cs threads some how getting bogged down by the existence of ct threads, JG can sticky the CS threads so that the stay above the ct threads. but like really, it'll be 26 threads in total. a little scrolling ain't going to hurt no one also, lol all this in the cs haku info thread
MisoSowee Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 Well that's true. And no one cares if it's here.... right? It's not like we always do this and derail all the threads... right? Guess we'll have to wait for JackG to log back in...
qwerty Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 i'm for merging/deleting all ct threads right now and updating everything to cs. dustloop is first and foremost for the competitive scene, which always follows the series' latest iteration. people will still be playing ct for quite some time, no doubt, but those will be console and pc players, many of which only play online. they can have a ct megathread per character (like some of the gg threads do for #R, because people still play that online), but that's all they should get. but, as a way to prevent unnecessary (read: bad) info from polluting the cs matchup threads, they need to be locked indefinitely until there's more than just day 1 predictions being thrown around. wait until the game is out for 3 or 4 months, then allow for matchup info to start getting posted. but for combos and this thread for example, keep them open because new shit gets discovered at this stage of the game. which, actually, is also my argument for keeping the matchup threads locked.
4r5 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 I certainly wouldn't mind having the dial MAX OUT towards the competitive side. Really, Jack can do what ever he wants and no one will maybe care till someone makes a big enough fuss in the suggestion forum. It was nice when we had a sister site that handled all the fans, while this one remained for the tournament player. Maybe we can change the culture of dustloop by somehow instigating a mass fan-exodus to blazblue.com.
CrimsonDisaster Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 Dunno about him being "overpowered," he's solid with potential big damage options and a few silly huge damage options.
4r5 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 4C looks like it turns half the cast in to Order-Sol.
MadRhetoric Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 Just get rid of the CT stuff completely imo, or just lock them and leave them there for anyone that's interested. Also I don't think Haku-men is overpowered, he seems about right. I only wish they hadn't made his mid-range so simplistic, although its more a problem with the game itself than just him. In the end it seems Arcsys wanted him to be Slayer with Johnny's sword and that's about where he is now. I think giving him both j.C and 4C may have been a bit much though, they probably should have made one of them a cheap 1-star special or something.
CrimsonDisaster Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 correct me if im wrong, but I believe zantetsu>5c doesnt work anymore. Also I don't mind Haku being high-ish tier so much that what he has that made him that way. I think toning the negative frames on 5c and 6c would have been acceptable, make them a wee bit faster, and he'd be fine. Instead he gets these ridiculous moves like 4c and j.c that simply lock down the opponent with no skill involved. 4C is counter-hit state for like a year and has pretty long recovery on whiff, and isn't as fast as people are making it out to be (it's not like some 2A or 5B-esque move by any means). Also disadvantage on block, as far as I can tell. Is it good? Of course. It's not some godly poke that takes "no skill," though. I wasn't aware that CH-state for the entire startup, active, and recovery while having very little payoff on hit was so gdlk. Same thing with jC, which is actually a bit on the slow side as air moves go. It's on the quick side for something with such huge range and untech time, but it's not even as good as, say, Litchi or Ragna jC (though I admit those are really really good). Hell, Jin's jC is probably better, too. Again, is it good? Yes. Does it get stuffed by things you wouldn't expect it to get stuffed by, have no jump cancel to give you better options on airblock than eat pressure or mash Hotaru, and generally not lead to much outside of corner combos? Also yes. High tier Hakumen isn't just because he has 4C and jC, though those help his spacing game out a lot. Overall better normals, damage is top-notch as of now, better footsies/spacing in a game that rewards good zoning from non-terrible characters. Dunno why Hakumen players would complain that their previously terrible gimmick character is now a really solid character.
mAc Chaos Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 Even with all the changes Hakumen got, I don't think they are really what puts him in "mid-top tier" status; if CS Hakumen fought CT Rachel or CT Arakune or CT Nu he'd probably have the matchups set against him just as hard. I think it's more the changes the other characters got.
ryokoalways Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 4C is counter-hit state for like a year and has pretty long recovery on whiff, and isn't as fast as people are making it out to be (it's not like some 2A or 5B-esque move by any means). Also disadvantage on block, as far as I can tell. Is it good? Of course. It's not some godly poke that takes "no skill," though. I wasn't aware that CH-state for the entire startup, active, and recovery while having very little payoff on hit was so gdlk. Same thing with jC, which is actually a bit on the slow side as air moves go. It's on the quick side for something with such huge range and untech time, but it's not even as good as, say, Litchi or Ragna jC (though I admit those are really really good). Hell, Jin's jC is probably better, too. Again, is it good? Yes. Does it get stuffed by things you wouldn't expect it to get stuffed by, have no jump cancel to give you better options on airblock than eat pressure or mash Hotaru, and generally not lead to much outside of corner combos? Also yes. High tier Hakumen isn't just because he has 4C and jC, though those help his spacing game out a lot. Overall better normals, damage is top-notch as of now, better footsies/spacing in a game that rewards good zoning from non-terrible characters. Dunno why Hakumen players would complain that their previously terrible gimmick character is now a really solid character. I don't believe hakumen ever qualified as gimmick nor terrible. Again, hakumen was fine outside of two match-ups: arakune and nu (although personally I've never fought a nu that was good enough for me to see problem i see in JP matches). Not to mention game mechanics for BB makes it so hakumen's match-up rating is a lot more dependent on the player, more so than with other characters' match-up ratings. Hakumen has always been very solid imo. 4C and jC are great as it is. I don't believe a move needs to have no weakness to be top class move. As it is, 4C and jC are amazing if the player use them correctly. It's another one of those things where it's not about using them as much as letting your opponent know you have them and know how to use them. As for jC's speed, I am almost 100% sure it's no slower than 13F, which while not the fastest, it is still plenty fast. Ragna's jC is more for air to ground, and Litchi's I am almost sure that it's slower. Litchi's jC is better in the sense that it grants more damage return, not because it's a better poke. Hakumen's jC is the best poke of that variation in the game though, imo, not to mention its untechable time greatly helps hakumen get to the corner. That and paring with his jB, jD, and hotaru grants him pretty good control of his air-space.
CrimsonDisaster Posted December 4, 2009 Posted December 4, 2009 random other things to note: gurren motion is now 214A hotaru is no longer an overhead, but it's air-unblockable now (lol why). Removes a guard primer.
SimpleKiss Posted December 4, 2009 Posted December 4, 2009 random other things to note: gurren motion is now 214A hotaru is no longer an overhead, but it's air-unblockable now (lol why). Removes a guard primer. Hotaru was always considered a grounded move. It was always unblockable in the air without IBin'g/barrier guarding.
JackG Posted December 4, 2009 Author Posted December 4, 2009 It also was never an overhead. his j.214C is (and was). As far as I know the only change his aerial specials is: a) j.214b breaks a guard primer b) j.214c has more untechable time (hence the whole 66 j.214.c xN dealy) I never understood why hotaru was air unblockable, but it certainly led to cool air-air mixup (airdash airthrow, hotaru, j.C)
rtl42 Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 wait what? in CT, Hotaru was aerial, and you had to block it high... isn't that what Crimson was referring to?
ryokoalways Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 No, while it's aerial, it was never an overhead, you can block it crouching.
DavidGuard Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 I got back from AI, Heres some shit I noticed. I think they changed Hakumen's Anti Air to 2c, can't really remember or not, but I'll confirm it when I go back today. Didn't really have time to practice stuff do to a big crowd. ^CH 4c is full of win as it leads to 6c shippu. ^Hakumen's meter gain feels a lot slower in CS? ^Yukikaze is great at punishing oppenents oki, still fast at wakeup. ^Hotaru on wake up serves as a dp of sorts, can combo into 2c (j.2a) xN j.c, you'll probably only j.2a j.c, depends on if they have you in the corner or you have them in the corner, likely the former. ^Carl's new hit box means combos that work on other chracters now apply to him, sandwhich is still a bitch to deal with., 4c can go throught the doll to ch him, his new projectile is easy to hit with a c attack for void barrier. ^Hazama can be a problem, his chains will let him run away should he get life lead and time you out, Still learning to block his strings and parry him. ^lack of old 6a let's characters like bang, ragna, and litchi to get free jump ins for doing their respective block strings, but if 2c is the new AA then this can change. ^I've only been able to renka after a 2d, Gurren may work, but the other times i did get a parry I inputted guren's old command instead of 214a dropping the combo. Overall Hakumen has more ways into damage now, ib into d is still his gameplan like in ct against most characters. Litchi is definitely his hardest matchup atm, followed by bang , carl, and ragna. I didn't get to play against any of the other characters other than a Hazama and a Tsubaki. Hazama is a game of cat and mouse, Tsubaki just gets raped atm, her damage out put is very low.
ryokoalways Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 Hakumen's meter gain: -auto gain is slower -gain from being hit is slightly higher I think. May be wrong. I thought it was just flat-out higher at first but I think I was wrong. -gain from hitting your opponent is much higher. In CT combos only return 1 magatama. In CS they return 1.8 magatamas (2 if you factor in the time required to return to neutral) -IB is the same I believe 2C is a horrid AA due to mediocre start up (not really the problem) and terrible hitbox (the problem). resort to jump jD, hotaru, 5A before you think about 2C. Litchi won't be hakumen's worst match-up. RTSD characters are never truly a problem for hakumen, the same reason why rachel in CT wasn't really that bad for hakumen.
rtl42 Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 No, while it's aerial, it was never an overhead, you can block it crouching. so what was the point of doing dash-hotaru in CT, if not going for a high?
MisoSowee Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 j.A and jump back j.C/j.2c work too! I think.. :D @above beat out mashers :P
ryokoalways Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 so what was the point of doing dash-hotaru in CT, if not going for a high? Basically what miso said. If you don't work your opponent with hotaru, they will just keep mashing poke to hit you out of your approach. Hotaru keeps them honest. Also works as anti-jump, throw bait (ground and air), anti-air, anti-backdash, anti-burst (air).
CrimsonDisaster Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 2C is a terrible AA in a lot of situations. In SOME situations it's okay, but it's not your go-to AA. 2D, 2C JC jC is pretty simple but it's only ~1.9k... still, no meter, no effort, and free pressure. 2C JC j2A blah blah blah is less consistent midscreen, but obviously if you toss them into the corner, go crazy. CH 4C, dash 3C is easy knockdown if you wanted to save bar. If you hit CH 4C up close for whatever reason, you can 5B(C?) XX Enma into whatever.
qwerty Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 so what was the point of doing dash-hotaru in CT, if not going for a high? it's a safe uppercut. so if you wanna punish punks who don't wait their turn to press buttons, you can do that. and if the punk wisens up, you can still punish him for pressing buttons by landing and countering. punk.
Recommended Posts