Mystic Eyes Posted June 13, 2010 Posted June 13, 2010 Also, thinking about going down on Friday. Who's showing up? I won't be able to make this one either, I've got my sister's graduation to go to.
Jian Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 First of all, Kyle, Happy Belated B-day. 2nd of all, hello dustloop I made a fucking account. 3rd of all, Y-Disciple I respect your irrational/rational hatred for turn based rpgs. From the standpoint of someone who wants instant feedback and immersion in games, you must wonder why the fuck someone would want to essentially be mashing x from a 3rd party perspective. There may be more to this or less to this depending on how you look at it. I don't have a short version of what I'm about to write, and what I'm going to write is why I like RPG's at all in the 1st place and together we'll come to some kind of answer along the way. Yes this could be a troll but this is all highly entertaining to me regardless. I remember distinctly that Chrono Trigger on the snes was the first game I finished. I liked the core mechanics of the game where special moves actually different screen coverages and elements so it kept battles a bit varied for using super awesome attack ____ for each encounter. Battles themselves remained a challenge because CT was still created in an era where rpg's could still kill you. The story itself was written and the characters were ridiculously endearing to me as a kid and still are. Window dressing and presentation matter a lot in this genre because it's what is emphasized and the square team did a great job with it. I understand Mike, you don't give a shit about that and I respect that because it would just be misdirecting your point. Your question is What made the gameplay itself enjoyable and redeemable? I mentioned a couple points about the battle system. I suppose Crono, the protagonist, wasn't so much a character as a vessel for you to transcribe yourself in as you're saving the world. I enjoyed the different party loadouts as each gave unique sets of team attacks. The individual elements combined together made a nice package and with multiple endings, I had reason the play game over and again. I was a kid I wanted to save the world, and this game fulfilled that desire because rpg's were the most epic games in terms of scale back in the day. Fast forward to years later, it's come to my observation that a few things have happened to my perspective. For an anecdote, I once went to a rave and instantly realized why people like raves, because strobe lights made everything you did cool, and so even if you're an uncoordinated it's ok! You can still RAVE with strobe lights. Listen Mike, you're a fighting game player which means there is some love of dexterity component in your games. Some people, the lazy sloths they are, do NOT WANT DEXTERITY components in their games, that is why RPG's are popular. Shit I suck, and I'm not beating this boss, just clock in 3 hours of leveling grinding and I'm good to go. Many rpg's do require strategy, I'll take the Persona series which I love, that it would be straight up foolish to play without some kind of strategy for 95% of its monsters. DMC and GOW can initially be played by mashing the square/triangle button initially but later on you have to play with enemy character weaknesses and behaviors in mind, otherwise fights will be overly drawn out or you just die. Mike, in the end the fault of players vs. environment games like Dynasty Warriors, God of War, and RPG's is that they do become predictable after learning strategies because the computer isn't a dynamic opponent for the most part, it doesn't learn, it only plays with the cards it has and if you beat those cards, you won't lose. The difference between action games (I'll include action rpg's as well in this) and turn based rpg's is the dexterity component. The dexterity component rates super high with you, and so for a game to not have it, automatically fails as a game in design. If this is something you can't get over, than turn based rpg's simply are not for you Mike. I'll agree with you for bunch of things though. As for the state of RPGs currently, most JRPG's I wouldn't even considered true role playing games anymore, you're just kinda there for the ride and you can't impact any decisions really. Characters and storylines are super generic and linear with a few exceptions, but just like tv shows, anime, etc, 90% or more of JRPG's is the same shit, and that gets annoying. I agree. After playing Fallout 3, I can barely stand playing through FFXIII at this point, literally western rpg's have blown my fucking mind at the freedom. Honestly the only reason I'm playing this game is because omfgwtfbbq Fang is hawt, curse you sexy Australian accents. In the end, whether or not an rpg can be classified on having good game design is up your preference as a player/consumer, to be honest.
Mindgam3 Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 Greetings Dustloop_SRK! Let’s celebrate the remodeling with a really long post about anything but fighting games! I never really liked them anyway. Happy belated birthday Kyle! May this next year be filled with good luck and many epiphanies. I might be beating a dead horse at this point, but I think that my comment of "I like RPG's for the story" was projected onto the group (meaning, everyone but Mike) without much thought. I'm sure our exhaustion combined with our complete disability for critical thought at 3 a.m might have contributed to this as well. I want to revisit my statement and add a few corollaries. I cannot offer an opinion of wRPG's, for I have only really played Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. Mike, I can perfectly sympathize with your statements as to how RPG's can and are completely and utterly boring. The "window dressing" (as coined by Jian) is entirely overemphasized in certain games, frequent and lengthy cut-scenes take away the impact of MY actions on their world, and merely being able to grind my party members' base level to overcome a "difficult" boss/enemy leaves me with a sense of dissatisfaction. This is why I cannot stand your generic jRPG/MMO, since I feel like you can mindlessly pick the best equipment, mindlessly grind your way to victory, and then mindlessly let their story/lore glaze over your eyelids. It's not only the "dexterity component" that is missing, it's the overall "immersion" of yourself as an active part of the game. I would define "immersion" in an RPG as fully realizing the consequences of your decisions. This can be realized by not just specific button sequences and inputs, but also by your capacity to make accurate judgments. This most prominently includes the strategic manipulation of your opponent, whether it be by playing mindgam3$'s with them, or by exploiting their particular weaknesses. In the truly noteworthy RPG’s that most of us clamor to high acclaim, this aspect is present. In SMT games, you MUST know the capabilities of your opponent, or you will die (and if you think that they’re small-time, there’s a “rush” option that just uses your physical attack over and over to avoid just mashing buttons. Makes the battle really quick-like.). In Star Ocean, you MUST consider spacing yourself from the opponent, or you will die. In Super Mario RPG, you MUST master the timing-intensive features of your special moves, or you will die. Surely if you’ve read this far, you are now asking yourself “MindgamFree, what about the story? Why are you so Free Hawk?” It’s what brings this synergy of artistic direction and game-play together. Fundamentally, a “role-playing” game offers the opportunity to observe and appreciate a story, much like a novel/epic. However, you aren’t just reading about the exploits of Odysseus or Huckleberry Finn, you ARE them. Of course you fully understand what they are doing and why, because it is ultimately the consequences of your decisions that drive them down the path of success or failure. Maybe this success only has one ending, does that necessarily make the journey not as “immersive?” That is entirely up to you. Do the story elements entirely outweigh the game-play? Of course not, but not having solid gameplay is going to make your journey painfully frustrating/boring. The fact remains that the story is used to explain why you’re supposedly saving the world, traveling dimensions, or fucking bitches and getting paid. If you cannot appreciate this element, then RPG’s are just not for you. And that's perfectly okay!
Fraga Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 Greetings Dustloop_SRK! Let’s celebrate the remodeling with a really long post about anything but fighting games! I never really liked them anyway. It's as if I'm really on SRK! Also why didn't you call me back? I wanted to go to that tournament yesterday!
DoomieJ Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 Fuck RPGs, play red dead redemption. After playing that, you dont need any other game for atleast 100 hours of your time. Shooting peoples hats of their heads was never more fun.
Zoob Posted June 14, 2010 Posted June 14, 2010 My avatar does nothing but get drunk and throw wild haymakers at passing stage coaches. Art imitating life?
Danny Schme Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 “MindgamFree, what about the story? Why are you so Free Hawk?” I ask this very question every night to the empty skies above as I lay my head to rest.
Mystic Eyes Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 WTF @ the new page layout... And thanks so much for the birthday wishes =D.
kona Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 Fuck RPGs, play red dead redemption. After playing that, you dont need any other game for atleast 100 hours of your time. Shooting peoples hats of their heads was never more fun. qft
agp24 Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 I'd like to speak about the whole DMC is hard thing for a second. Yes, it is a hard game, but it is completely possible to mash your way through DMC3. There's this wonderful move called Stinger that beats everything and anything and does obscene amounts of damage. You can basically go through the whole game on DMD by just using that one move. It's rather silly. As for jRPGS as a whole, I like the hard ones, but I like easy ones as well, as long as the combat(And stor-Oh wait, I'm a Tales of fan..... Just combat, then.) grip me. Tales games are all easy as fuck, but the combat and the characters are fun. I don't play ToS for the story(If I did, I'd play FFX. Same god damn story, but FFX has slightly more depth to it.), I play ToS so I can go around as a little pink haired loli smashing the fuck out of everything on the planet with my oversized axe. In the end, isn't that all we can ask for?
Fraga Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 (If I did, I'd play FFX. Same god damn story, but FFX has slightly more depth to it.) You best mean FFIX Tales, that was a masterpiece. I myself didn't like FFX too much, the story made me want to kill someone [it was so damn annoying]. But aside from jRPGs and RPGs, can we talk about something like... Guilty Gear? I heard it's such an underrated game right now maybe we should chat about it
Why-Disciple Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 Are there no more Jam players that can help me out a bit? Or should I just go back to being the best/only Tekken player in Vernon?
agp24 Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 No, Fraga, I did mean FFX. Have you played it? It has the exact same fucking story as Tales of Symphonia. They're like, virtually identical until the last 5% of the games. Edit: New avatar is epic! xD
DoomieJ Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 Are there no more Jam players that can help me out a bit? Or should I just go back to being the best/only Tekken player in Vernon? Go to a major. Learn her from st1ckbug. He a beast.
Mindgam3 Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 Are there no more Jam players that can help me out a bit? Or should I just go back to being the best/only Tekken player in Vernon? The most important thing is to skim the character sub-forums for information. Since no one else aside from Baka and SaltNine (who don't come too often) are familiar with her, it's up to you to take their advice and knowledge to the next level. If you don't understand something, don't be afraid to ask! In my experience, everyone is willing to help one another out. The worst case scenario is that your advice/strategy/combo will be wrong, and then you'll end up learning something in the process. But then again, Flashmetroid is the moderator for the Jam subforum... Also, Danny, you're learning Zappa. Let me show you why this has been decided. Marvel as Chonari runs it back against Shonen (Round 3) and Woshige (Round 4) in the 2009 SBO finals, only to get beaten by N-Otoko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tGUCPfGovw&feature=related
DoomieJ Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 The most important thing is to skim the character sub-forums for information. Since no one else aside from Baka and SaltNine (who don't come too often) are familiar with her, it's up to you to take their advice and knowledge to the next level. If you don't understand something, don't be afraid to ask! In my experience, everyone is willing to help one another out. The worst case scenario is that your advice/strategy/combo will be wrong, and then you'll end up learning something in the process. But then again, Flashmetroid is the moderator for the Jam subforum... Also, Danny, you're learning Zappa. Let me show you why this has been decided. Marvel as Chonari runs it back against Shonen (Round 3) and Woshige (Round 4) in the 2009 SBO finals, only to get beaten by N-Otoko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tGUCPfGovw&feature=related Sucks about Jam forums, but if you have questions, post up in their question thread. It'll get an answer. In america, hardly anyone knows the zappa matchup, esp. east coast. And BTW, chonari was the only person to beat both shonen and woshige at SBO last year. dudes a beast, but mitsurugi is better with
Why-Disciple Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 Hmm, maybe I should start learning how to defend myself from other chars, as that seems to be what kills me. If I wasn't preoccupied with work and Tekken combos I'd be all over the Jam forum, but for now, I'll have to make do. Zappa's pretty hard to learn, isn't he? He's like the Carl of GG. Sweet av, Tales.
kona Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 As a Bridget player, I know how you feel. Hell, no one I know even DABBLES in Bridget. I had to learn and research absolutely everything I know on my own. If anything, I had to help other people with how to play Bridget. While it does suck to being one of few people who play the character, it does give me that feeling of uniqueness. I just have to work harder. Plus, I'm falling way behind Tales right now.
Danny Schme Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 Also, Danny, you're learning Zappa. Let me show you why this has been decided. Marvel as Chonari runs it back against Shonen (Round 3) and Woshige (Round 4) in the 2009 SBO finals, only to get beaten by N-Otoko: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tGUCPfGovw&feature=related My god... that was beautiful.
kona Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 Stryfe is running a GG, MB, and SSF4 here at BG on July 17. Start making plans and continue leveling up! GET HYPE!
Zoob Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 I need to stop clicking on people's sigs. How's the new gen GG petition going? -Ninomyia-kun
DoomieJ Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 Hmm, maybe I should start learning how to defend myself from other chars, as that seems to be what kills me. If I wasn't preoccupied with work and Tekken combos I'd be all over the Jam forum, but for now, I'll have to make do. Zappa's pretty hard to learn, isn't he? He's like the Carl of GG. Sweet av, Tales. Just about every character in GG is harder to learn than any BB character. Carl is no exception, You just need to get used to Negative Edging. And It isn't that his combos and such are hard to learn, its that you need to learn to control 4 summons in all types of situations and matchups. But that is no reason to not learn him. When something is hard, it keeps me occupied much longer than something thats easy. Also, i gotta try and make it up one friday. It's a long ride, but if i got out of work early enough, itd be worth it.
agp24 Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 Kona, why are you using "Falling behind Tales" as a way to show that you don't think you practice enough? :/ Thought we were done with the whole "Tales is free" thing.... Well, most of us, anyway. Cheese would probably consider me free even if I double perfect IK'd him. xD Oh, and thanks, Dannie. My new avatar is awesome. >:P
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