[CS1] Iron Tager vs. Litchi

[bjholmes2]

CS matchup discussions are now open!

[brningpyre]

Oh, man. I was really hoping for some advice here. Getting raped by 20 second long combos sucks.

[ZhePrime]

Isn't the matchup largely unchanged? If so, the old CT thread should have some helpful stuff:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?6179-Iron-Tager-vs.-Litchi-%28CT%29

[ATGMantenbo]

This is coming from a Litchi main:

overheads mix-up:

1-Litchi with staff: Block always high once she starts her block-strings with 5B; she has kinda fast overheads, 4D and 6A, and a slow low, 3C, that can galtling from 5B or the moves after.

once you block her 4D overhead, most litchis will go for kote > j.B > pressure ..... you can land a 360A while she's doing kote > j.B with no problems.

the other overhead 6A is sorta hard to punish coz most litchis do it after 5B which pushes you back a little so it's best to backdash whenever you block it, but you can land a 720 when in range.

2-Lithci without staff: now block low coz she has a very fast low, haku, and two slow overheads.

Anti-Air:

ohh I can guarantee you 80% of litchis are gonna spam j.B and j.C with staff like crazy, so make 2C your friend whenever you expect a jump or see one coming; also 2C beats litchi's j.B crossup or trades sometimes, but hell, it's an awesome trade.

2A works really well against j.C and kinda ok with j.B, use it if you are afraid 2C will whiff or something.

In the corner:

you are DEAD

please feel free to correct me if i'm wrong

[Koopa_Klawz]

is there a good way to get close to her or should we just wait until her staff is out of the way cause that's the only time i can get close to her without taking too much risk.

[Mike Z]

As said in other threads: walk forward. You'll actually get in pretty quickly, because IBing her long pokes is easy.

[Koopa_Klawz]

can someone give an overall strategy about this match-up? i'm doing HORRIBLE at this match up. i even struggle against the ones who can atleast combo. also can u tell me what u think the match up ratio is? i know it's bad i just want to know how bad.

:vbang:

[A.X.I.S.]

ugh if your not doing drugs then when your finished with this match up you will wish you have.

things you do:

walk, IB, capitalize on an opening,(very few openings.) dont get hit, and save your spark

things you don't do:

get hit, get cornered, not respect the DP, normal jump without applying some kind of pressure, not block overheads.

I am gonna break down all the things you need to look out for and why.

overheads:

6A: her most used overhead, she can do 4k from it like most her pokes and with the staff it can go half screen...yes hate this move, your gonna see it a lot...IB it so you can punish this move regardless of distance...if you don't IB it then you better be close and churning butter.

4D: this move is...safe, she can jump cancel it so your better off backdashing to punish it in most cases, if you block it then your gonna be pressured even more, if you get hit 4k...haha yeah.

j.B/j.C: j.b is a threat only when she has 50 heat or your health is low...then you ask why. oh ho you wanna know? because it hits you while your ducking and its a 14F overhead a really fast overhead that will do 4k if litchi has 50 heat.

j.C is a overhead and if you fuck up a AA then you wall bounce into stupidity.

don't think you can backdash/IB punish these either..she has no landing recovery so your not gonna punish unless she commits to something when she lands which she won't because she doesn't have to.

note: j.b is only a 14F overhead if she is doing it as she's rising from the jump thus its a rising j.b.

5A/2A: these aren't so bad but they can lead into pressure or that dreaded rising j.b overhead...its scary when litchi does 5AxN.

j.A: it stuffs your jump in's really well because of its hitbox which is above her, don't expect big damage from it but its a way of keeping you out.

3C with staff or 3C[M]: it hits pretty far and if you get hit then you gave her 4k into stupid.

6D: safe and annoying and goes into stance...why is stance bad? read below.

stance: I fucking hate it, you will hate it and probably ragequit because its the most antagonizing trap in this match up.

why? it eats spark, its immune to the pull, she can hit you low or AA you, and if you try to sledge she can wait until right after its active frames are done and punish you, and she can cancel it and jump away and if your not careful she will punish you for trying to punish...yes stance is that bad, and she can do it anywhere and at anytime. so if you see the stance and your not blocking low or jumping barrier it then your gonna again eat 4k into death.

note: dumb litchi's shoot staff early, smart litchi's don't...if you want to punish her for throwing out the staff because its a projectile so you can sledge it, also she is vulnerable to lows...you know what that means right?

2C: with and without staff it hurts if she decides to AA you and its also one of her possible starters at the beginning of the round.

how bad is it? not too bad if you perfectly bait it with an elbow, also it punishes your normal jump easily so don't try to jump in on litchi too much, it leads into a whopping 5.8k I believe.

her DD's:

normally after a litchi combo she does 13 orphans or Daisharin.

anyways your gonna have a lot of hell with these...block them in these cases and block the mix up, either way she doesn't have staff so block low and react to the overhead and watch where the stick is because she can tick grab you or hit you with j.b.

note: if you get hit then she is gonna run this train on you again until you die.

another thing if litchi is really close to you when she does 13 orphans you can quick get up 720 her.

what you can do:

not much, just standard tager protocol but I will call you out on these:

if you have spark and the staff is near you, don't shoot it, she can press D and hit you out of start up.

if she is doing Shishin (move when the staff spins in toward you or up.) IB it it, your gonna die for sledging against good ones and your gonna die getting hit by it.

keep her close, she has a command backdash which is pretty much her air backdash, it can go through spark. (happened to me once or twice.) but if you time it right it shouldn't matter much anyways. (no one but tager should be backdashing to avoid spark.)

when you knock her down don't fear the DP she won't use it unless your really close.

I found that 6A works a lot when it comes to punishing her.

NEW!!!

Your Optimal damage combo in this match should be:

After first collider: walk Bsledge>2B>2C>collider>B/Egadget.

You can actually IB punish Litchi's ground pressure, Learn which moves are jump cancelable on block so you can pick a time to punish.

anyways I'm done here.

if you wanna add something to it guys feel free to.

Edited January 19, 2011 by A.X.I.S.

[Koopa_Klawz]

dammit axis now u made me wish i take drugs.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Koopa_Klawz

[Nakkiel]

I'd say 6.5-3.5 at absolute worst.

In neutral game, unless she's magnetized you shouldn't be hitting buttons at all. You're going to be doing an excessive amount of blocking in this match. Her staff pokes are going to stuff a lot of your moves (2B[m] and 3C[m] namely). Getting her magnetized will help you out, Litchi has a harder time getting out of Tager's pressure since it's extremely risky for her to DP (it's a projectile). However her 3 frame jump and her extra backdash (midscreen) help her out. Don't get too predictable and if they're jumping out of everything, set up a tick throw situation and use Atomic Collider to catch their jump out.

When you get Spark Bolt, I recommend holding on to it. If she's using her staff to poke at you and you block 6B or 6C, you can Spark Bolt the recovery (make sure to instant bloooock) for a free combo. It also forces her to be a lot more careful with her pokes, which makes it easier for you to get in.

Try to stay on the ground, super jumping with j.C to move forward is risky as it sets yourself up in to a guessing game with Litchi against Superjump j.A/Airthrow/2C[m]

Her lows with staff are slower than her overheads, you should learn to block the staff lows on reaction and block high for staff pressure. She can instant overhead with j.B so watch for when she has 50 meter (the only way she can combo off of it). After 4D kote, just 5A or buster, if she does anything but jump away it'll win. You can start using Atomic Collider to catch the jump away. As for 6A, it's only -2. So if you want to punish it with anything make sure you IB it or backdash it.

Staffless is really rough for Tager, especially under a super or in the corner. Her lows are faster and staffless j.C will instant overhead Tager, so blocking is significantly more difficult than usual, especially during supers when she gets a combo off of instant j.C.

Her 5A hits you crouching, and it's +3 so be wary of that. Train yourself to break throws on reaction (not anticipation) as it will help you immensely on defense.

For anti-air, 2C works most of the time but don't use it unless she's directly above you, since it will lose to j.D[m]. 2A works sometimes but I would recommend either backdashing or 2C, as 2A will mostly lose to j.B[n].

Hope that helps, make sure to read the other character's matchup forums as it may have information not known/provided in yours.

[Isorropia]

Good, helpful rundowns Axis and Sg. I've just got a few points to discuss in sg's summary:

Getting her magnetized will help you out

I find that magnetism at neutral is almost useless against litchi - any move tager can use to pull her closer...she can use to just extend her poke range, she typically isn't inside j.D/5D range even with magnetism and hence can simply counterpoke.

Litchi has a harder time getting out of Tager's pressure since it's extremely risky for her to DP (it's a projectile).

Her dp being a projectile is a non-issue, the only time it could cost her is if tager cancels into sledge at the exact moment she decides to dp...not too likely.(And sledge combos are only ~2k damage anyway.) In fact, you can pretty much exclusively use dp's on reaction since tager's C and D moves are so slow. And her 3f jump isn't just moderately helpful, IB jump makes a laughingstock of tager's 'pressure'.

Set up a tick throw situation and use Atomic Collider to catch their jump out.

Will work if you read the opponent correctly, gaining tager ~3k dmg. If you read incorrectly, you take 4k on reaction and lose all offensive momentum in the process. Risky.

When you get Spark Bolt, I recommend holding on to it. If she's using her staff to poke at you and you block 6B or 6C, you can Spark Bolt the recovery (make sure to instant bloooock) for a free combo. It also forces her to be a lot more careful with her pokes, which makes it easier for you to get in.

Litchi's 6B is -7, IB makes -12, spark startup is 13f (not even including travel time). 6B is safe. With IB works on 6C.

I'd say 6.5-3.5 at absolute worst.

From that I'm assuming you're not a tager player. >.>

[natearistata]

Doesn't Litchi's jump-back B beat AC?

[A.X.I.S.]

yeah but thats why I said use 5A/6A.

it stops all that stuff, besides AC is riskier than it ever should be in this match.

[Mike Z]

Her dp being a projectile is a non-issue

Not so. Sledge threat lessens (or removes) her ability to use it as a reversal after knockdown, and if you do Sledge one then you get nearly free mixups and pressure since she's staffless after.

[Isorropia]

I should have specified: I was referring to her dp as a method of getting out of tager's pressure. On wakeup it can be beaten by sledge like you said, it can also be safe jabbed if you time it right. But I guess her losing the staff is good even if the sledge combo isn't damaging...hmm.....

Also nate, on j.b vs AC, it depends. Yes, after gadget it wins, but basically what you have is an 11f startup 3f active aerial vs a 17f startup 7-16f head invuln attack.

So after gadget (+3), litchi has 11+3f startup then 3 active frames, which hits tager on the 17th frame where he isn't invulnerable. (At least I think this is how it works? Feel free to correct me) In situations that aren't static like gadget you can have better luck because her active frames could be entirely within the invuln timing and then you grab her during recovery, or if it's a yomi collider then it can get them before the active frames are out. But....yeah, if they don't jump you're in trouble.

[Nakkiel]

Good, helpful rundowns Axis and Sg. I've just got a few points to discuss in sg's summary:

I find that magnetism at neutral is almost useless against litchi - any move tager can use to pull her closer...she can use to just extend her poke range, she typically isn't inside j.D/5D range even with magnetism and hence can simply counterpoke.

Her dp being a projectile is a non-issue, the only time it could cost her is if tager cancels into sledge at the exact moment she decides to dp...not too likely.(And sledge combos are only ~2k damage anyway.) In fact, you can pretty much exclusively use dp's on reaction since tager's C and D moves are so slow. And her 3f jump isn't just moderately helpful, IB jump makes a laughingstock of tager's 'pressure'.

Will work if you read the opponent correctly, gaining tager ~3k dmg. If you read incorrectly, you take 4k on reaction and lose all offensive momentum in the process. Risky.

Litchi's 6B is -7, IB makes -12, spark startup is 13f (not even including travel time). 6B is safe. With IB works on 6C.

From that I'm assuming you're not a tager player. >.>

No I'm obviously not a Tager player but I play one all the time.

Magnetism helps out. I didn't say it helped out immensely, but it does. Litchi's pokes aren't exactly the fastest (although they aren't slow by any means), and getting her close is what you need to do. Second of all, she will definitely be in range with magnetism, I don't know why you think she never will be but I can 100% tell you that isn't true. The optimal range she should be in to score damage off her pokes will be IN your range with magnetism.

Her DP being a projectile is HARDLY a non-issue, and the point of going through it isn't to score big damage, it's to get rid of her staff thus getting rid of her reversal options.

Also, you separated my points for Tager's pressure taking them out of context. Her DP being harder to use on Tager means jumping out > DPing. If they're jumping out of everything, remember where they're jumping out from and AC them (or 5A/6A). Beating AC with j.B[m] seems inconsistent at times for me.

Also my bad about 6B, I thought Spark was faster than that. IB 6B and establish pressure in some manner, in that case.

I really would not put this matchup worse than 6.5-3.5, she's not Nu-13, and Tager isn't completely helpless.