farranpoison Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 He's right. The Japanese are absolutely perfect. All jap matches I've seen all end in time overs with no damage taken by either side. But then no one would win, they'd all end up in draws.
qwerty Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 and once again we fall into the trap of "tiers don't matter except for the highest levels of play" the whole fuckin POINT of a tier list is to rate characters assuming both players are of equal skill. all a tier list assumes is that both players are of equal skill; not this "perfect play" people seem to conjure up in their heads. of course now this begs the question of "well what if both players are scrubs" to which i answer of course it still applies. then of course i'm bound to get "WELL WHAT IF BOTH PLAYERS ARE JUST MASHING THEIR ASS ON THE BUTTONS AND DON'T KNOW HOW THE GAME WORKS" well then OBVIOUSLY it doesn't apply because these people aren't even PLAYING THE GAME. do the rules of chess apply to me if i use the chess pieces and board to play checkers?
SethDahlios Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 The point I was making is more that while yes Tiers can matter, more often than not user error makes them obsolete. If tiers truly mattered then there would be no point to playing a fighting game because S tier always wins. Obviously there are cases where S loses, but the point of the exercise is to demonstrate that people shouldn't rely on tiers alone to determine how the fight will play out. Can it explain the difficulty of fighting certain people? Oh hell yes. The reason the Top Play fallacy gets thrown around bet more veteran gamers is to underline the whole point of GG:AC, the fact that the tiers are so close game play wise that they really only matter in clutch situations. However, the average player will not be in those clutch situations as often as you'd think. In which case is more about who makes the next to last mistake. If we were talking Blazblue, tiers most definitely matter. AC? Not quite as cut and dry as Blazblue.
qwerty Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 tier placement always matters, man. that's the sole reason tier lists exist. all a tier list does is rank characters' abilities assuming that both players are of equal skill; you're making this way more complex than it is. these people in this thread bitching about baiken and slayer? they have no fucking clue how to fight against them because they either lack matchup experience or simply aren't good enough at the game to know how to. they don't lose to them because they're high tier, but because they don't even fulfill the prerequisites of a tier ranking in the first place (note: the one situation where tier placement doesn't matter; when one player is much better than the other). to help make this more clear, say you're an eddie player and you always lose to johnny. does this make johnny a bad matchup? (maybe for you but the real answer is) no. it simply means the johnny player is better than you, and thus his tier ranking is irrelevant because you two are quite frankly not playing the same game. this works both ways in ggac because the game is balanced; that's kinda what being balanced means.
qwerty Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 the fact that the tiers are so close game play wise that they really only matter in clutch situations. tier placement isn't some adrenaline rush that gives you superhuman reaction and it isn't some heart of the cards shit that summons exodia and wins the match for you. it's a ranking of characters assuming both players are of equal skill. that's it.
smooshman Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 The reason the Top Play fallacy gets thrown around bet more veteran gamers is to underline the whole point of GG:AC, the fact that the tiers are so close game play wise that they really only matter in clutch situations. However, the average player will not be in those clutch situations as often as you'd think. In which case is more about who makes the next to last mistake. actually in a clutch situation the individual matchup matters more than the tier, if a low tier has a favorable match up against the top tier, then the match the tier is irrelevant. Tiers only really matter as a show of relative ability and tools, the matchups are more important. Also remember that a matchup is 6-4, 7-3, and 5.5-4.5 for a reason, it means that there's the (fairly high) chance of victory, not a 1 sided rape fest one thinks of for a "bad" matchup.
bbq sauce Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 But then no one would win, they'd all end up in draws. Why do you think there's no match up chart? tier placement isn't some adrenaline rush that gives you superhuman reaction and it isn't some heart of the cards shit that summons exodia and wins the match for you. it's a ranking of characters assuming both players are of equal skill. that's it. lmfao I'm sigging this.. nvm.. too long.
Shinjin Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 N-Otoko wrote this tierlist on his mixi, criteria being characters that win. Based on his "feeling". No matchup-chart etc. Eddie,Testament ＞ Slayer, Millia Baiken Chipp, Jam, Zappa Faust, Venom Potemkin, May Sol, Ky, Order-Sol, Aba, Axl, Ino, Robo-Ky Dizzy, Anji, Johnny, Bridget peace.
farranpoison Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 N-Otoko wrote this tierlist on his mixi, criteria being characters that win. Based on his "feeling". No matchup-chart etc. Eddie,Testament ＞ Slayer, Millia Baiken Chipp, Jam, Zappa Faust, Venom Potemkin, May Sol, Ky, Order-Sol, Aba, Axl, Ino, Robo-Ky Dizzy, Anji, Johnny, Bridget peace. HAHAHAHAHA wut.
Spirit Juice Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 If tiers truly mattered then there would be no point to playing a fighting game because S tier always wins. Obviously there are cases where S loses, but the point of the exercise is to demonstrate that people shouldn't rely on tiers alone to determine how the fight will play out. What exercise are you talking about? I'm confused here, and apparently, so are you. You are over thinking this. Tier lists rank characters based on how good they are. Forget player skill (even though it is created in mind with players being equal in skill). Forget perfect play (i.e. if two robots fought each other). That's it. S tier means the best out of all the characters, but it does not mean they are unbeatable by any means. Bottom tier doesn't mean they cannot win either, it just means they're the weakest of the bunch. Stop thinking too much about tier lists. There isn't some magical thought process going into them.
4r5 Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 No, S-tier is equivalent to God-tier, as we can observer by the placement of S-tier above the naturally ordered tiers: A, B, C, D, and so on.
smooshman Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 tiers are relative to the game; AC is fairly balanced, and the characters are generally close in ability, some are more capable (Eddie) and some less so (Johnny), and yet does Johnny lose every match? no. Does Eddie win every mat-...... to say that the tier is the defining characteristic of a character that will determine if they win, is not quite accurate. For example Baiken (who was hightier) has a (arguably) bad matchup against Sol, is Sol higher tier? no. Potemkin has a bad matchup against Bridget, is Bridget higher tier? no. a tier is a representation of the cast in terms of general advantage, however not every top tier has a great advantage against everyone, a high tier is just more likely to have a good matchup if your opponent chooses random on the character selection screen. Also anti-high tier mindsets are pretty stupid too, if that character's hightier and you're winning and are satisfied with your character don't let people shit talk about how "u use hightier becuz u got no skillz".
Digital Watches Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Why do you think there's no match up chart? lmfao I'm sigging this.. nvm.. too long. Want me to make it your sig? Oh, and all this talk is hella dumb. Tiers just mean "the character is better, sort of, by some arbitrary assessment made by folks who know what they're talking about." Like I said, it's not like we're using actual statistics or anything.
4r5 Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Perhaps this ancient stone tablet will better illustrate my point. Notice how S-Tier sits above the terrestrial-tiers, and is payed tribute.
farranpoison Posted May 14, 2010 Posted May 14, 2010 Perhaps this ancient stone tablet will better illustrate my point. Notice how S-Tier sits above the terrestrial-tiers, and is payed tribute. Good lord, this is pure win.
bbq sauce Posted May 14, 2010 Posted May 14, 2010 Want me to make it your sig? T'would be bitchin'. Perhaps this ancient stone tablet will better illustrate my point. Notice how S-Tier sits above the terrestrial-tiers, and is payed tribute. Oh, my, god. lmffffaaaaoaoooo
shezmu Posted May 14, 2010 Posted May 14, 2010 Perhaps this ancient stone tablet will better illustrate my point. Notice how S-Tier sits above the terrestrial-tiers, and is payed tribute. I really wish I could sig this. Sadly, I'll just have to settle for this He's right. The Japanese are absolutely perfect. All jap matches I've seen all end in time overs with no damage taken by either side.
Trix Posted May 14, 2010 Posted May 14, 2010 Allright, forgive my ignorance please if I'm not aware of this, but this is something that's been bugging me. But why hasn't there been any Testament players that have won majors? He's always been up there with Eddie, yet I don't even see Testaments in the top 3 from the results I've seen. The only one I've seen of significance was last Evo when a Testament finished in the top 8. I believe it was Wuku? If I'm wrong, or something went completely over my head, please correct me, but I dunno.
Kamui Moon Posted May 14, 2010 Posted May 14, 2010 there just isn't an american testament that's at a high enough level to beat the best.
Red Star Posted May 14, 2010 Posted May 14, 2010 Allright, forgive my ignorance please if I'm not aware of this, but this is something that's been bugging me. But why hasn't there been any Testament players that have won majors? He's always been up there with Eddie, yet I don't even see Testaments in the top 3 from the results I've seen. The only one I've seen of significance was last Evo when a Testament finished in the top 8. I believe it was Wuku? If I'm wrong, or something went completely over my head, please correct me, but I dunno. Shounen's Testament was in the team that won SBO '09. At least I am pretty sure he was.
Trix Posted May 14, 2010 Posted May 14, 2010 Shounen's Testament was in the team that won SBO '09. At least I am pretty sure he was. I was referring to the U.S. Sorry. I knew I would forget to say that in my original post. lol
tolore Posted May 14, 2010 Posted May 14, 2010 It was indeed wuku, he lost to jam because no one plays jam in the northwest.
Digital Watches Posted May 14, 2010 Posted May 14, 2010 Lawl. He lost to MARN'S Jam, no less. Hell, he'd have been able to beat that practicing v. MY fuckin' jam.
SymbiotE_ Posted May 14, 2010 Posted May 14, 2010 N-Otoko wrote this tierlist on his mixi, criteria being characters that win. Based on his "feeling". No matchup-chart etc. Eddie,Testament ＞ Slayer, Millia Baiken Chipp, Jam, Zappa Faust, Venom Potemkin, May Sol, Ky, Order-Sol, Aba, Axl, Ino, Robo-Ky Dizzy, Anji, Johnny, Bridget peace. lmao, that tier list is more like "character's i hate fighting"
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