BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[A.X.I.S.]

you do know you can get some good damage off of 6A right?

also by this logic lambda has a slower overhead than jin's if the second hit of that move is a overhead and not the first...could be wrong but I don't care.

[Dacidbro]

His 6A overhead goes directly into corner nonsense, so I can't exactly agree with low reward.

6B doesn't make sense as an overhead and is already good. Everyone would block it high and it would be just like normal, so there's no point. 6B is a frame trap/low crusher.

Lambda's overhead is still difficult to block, as the first hit will register as a low jab to many people (myself included). There is an anesthetic attribute to hearing the "clink" of a blocked hit, as usually an overhead can not follow it that quickly. My mind shuts off, and I never ever block it. such is life. Alternatively, if you meaty it the first hit is skipped and it is just the second hit. Past that, her overhead has really, really god like proration.

[smooshman]

you do know you can get some good damage off of 6A right?

also by this logic lambda has a slower overhead than jin's if the second hit of that move is a overhead and not the first...could be wrong but I don't care.

sure I do, but it only really pays off in the corner..... at mid screen you can only really push to the corner.... though I guess with enough heat you could do an ice arrow, or 623D>632146C.

as for Lambda's overhead if you add the start up, the active of the first hit and the frames between them, you get 17 frames before the overhead vs jin's 19, BUT it isn't special cancellable, and has a long untechable time.

EDIT:

His 6A overhead goes directly into corner nonsense, so I can't exactly agree with low reward.

6B doesn't make sense as an overhead and is already good. Everyone would block it high and it would be just like normal, so there's no point. 6B is a frame trap/low crusher.

Lambda's overhead is still difficult to block, as the first hit will register as a low jab to many people (myself included). There is an anesthetic attribute to hearing the "clink" of a blocked hit, as usually an overhead can not follow it that quickly. My mind shuts off, and I never ever block it. such is life. Alternatively, if you meaty it the first hit is skipped and it is just the second hit. Past that, her overhead has really, really god like proration.

you beat me to the corner part.

the reason 6B would be a good overhead is less to do with it's speed and more to do with the pressure you can do off of it, TK ice swords>air dash>J2C>2B or whatever would be quite scary.

Lambda's overhead is tricky if you haven't dealt with it alot. I still get hit since it looks like a body hit. the p1 is 80, nice, p2 is 82 and 90. so does nice damage.

[Dacidbro]

6B doesn't have to be an overhead for all that to already apply, like it already does.

[smooshman]

6B doesn't have to be an overhead for all that to already apply, like it already does.

but it adds to the utility, if it lands overhead than you can combo, if not just keep pressuring.

Alternatively, having a 6B>6A gatling, that would be nice.....

[Dacidbro]

The things that you want for Jin are either mildly useless or completely nonsensical to his character scheme.

[smooshman]

The things that you want for Jin are either mildly useless or completely nonsensical to his character scheme.

all I said was 6B overhead:psyduck:.... or do you mean the 6B>6A thing? because that's on list of things that would w/e..

[ZONG_one]

6B = he hits your leg with his foot. But it's an overhead?

Talk about ultimate mixup.

He already has a good overhead.

Also, wishing for 6B to be an overhead... but wishing for it to gatling to 6A.

So you want a new overhead, but want to use the old one anyway? I don't understand.

[kenja0]

Jin's 6B would have too many advantages over 6A if it became an overhead.

For Lambda, her 2C was nerfed to make 6A the go to AA (and we found a nice loop with it). Her 2C is still usable as the attack to jump cancel j.214D.

The ideal moveset is to make every attack have its uses and make each one a viable move to use. 6A is useful, but it is relatively easy to whiff with, so a range extension may help this out and improve his mixup (since they nerfed his crossup game).

[Dacidbro]

I'm telling you, 6B as an overhead would accomplish nothing. It's like 35 frames, how the hell do you get mixed up by that?

[smooshman]

I'm telling you, 6B as an overhead would accomplish nothing. It's like 35 frames, how the hell do you get mixed up by that?

it's about the same speed as Ragna's... actually it's one frame slower, 25 on start up...... we're not all Bang players, mix up for is anything below 30F at this point.

[Dacidbro]

Sure, but Ragna's 6B doesn't involve floating off the ground and spinning. That's why it works.

PS Throwing in a "We're not all bang players" doesn't even support your argument, because Bang's 5C hits on frame 20-22 usually, whereas Jin's overhead is 4-6 frames faster, if I remember right. Cmon, keep up.

[smooshman]

Sure, but Ragna's 6B doesn't involve floating off the ground and spinning. That's why it works.

PS Throwing in a "We're not all bang players" doesn't even support your argument, because Bang's 5C hits on frame 20-22 usually, whereas Jin's overhead is 4-6 frames faster, if I remember right. Cmon, keep up.

there's no Bang frame data in the guides yet:vbang:

so speed buff it, hell lower it to 20 and I'm set, 1 frame slower than 6A plus all the cool stuff it has (100 p1). The biggest problem would be it would make 6A obsolete and useless..... so convert that to something Jin needs, an effective antiair normal. I'm not asking for Ky's 6P or anything (but that be to good), but something that allows me to get decent damage off of it (623C 50p1:vbang:).

EDIT: hey.... don't Tao and Bang have a overhead where they jump off the ground and roll towards you?

[ZONG_one]

Yeah. Tao's sucks, and can be air thrown.

Bang's can be punished.

[Dacidbro]

I'm telling you Bang's frame data. His 5C becomes active frame 18, and is active for 8 frames after that, most commonly hitting on 20-24.

Why would you modify a frame trap that crushes lows to be a better overhead than the other overhead that is deliberately not a great overhead? And then remove the other one completely?

Bang's 6B is an overhead where he tucks and rolls forward. It is significantly less telegraphed than Jin's 6B and is 7 frames faster. It's also sharply negative on block, unlike the 6B you're suggesting.

[-Ladon-]

Jin clearly needs a Blood kain-esque ability that reverts all future forms of freeze into CT freeze

y'know, just to make sure you WIGGLE THAT SHIT

oh and also, it refreezes mid combo.

[smooshman]

^even if it's sarcasm.... this..... kinda.

Yeah. Tao's sucks, and can be air thrown.

Bang's can be punished.

My brother did that on accident when I did Jin's 6B actually.lol

I'm telling you Bang's frame data. His 5C becomes active frame 18, and is active for 8 frames after that, most commonly hitting on 20-24.

Why would you modify a frame trap that crushes lows to be a better overhead than the other overhead that is deliberately not a great overhead? And then remove the other one completely?

Bang's 6B is an overhead where he tucks and rolls forward. It is significantly less telegraphed than Jin's 6B and is 7 frames faster. It's also sharply negative on block, unlike the 6B you're suggesting.

..... screw it give 6A a (as in 1) gatling (in and out) and make it special cancellable on block.

if not..... I guess J2C, JB, and JA are my overheads.... since they're actually fast... kinda.

[A.X.I.S.]

any mashing retard or anyone who can play the game can easily punish jin's 6B.

and both bang and tao's jumping overhead (bang and tao's 6B) can be beaten by just doing a normal poke...for gods sake I can stuff it with most characters 2A with 0 effort.

and if you do hit with jin's 6B then you should be able to capitalize on it.

jin's 6A is fine it does its job quite well.

[Dacidbro]

Sol, you are playing people that aren't using it right then. It makes a vicious frame trap and can be safely or nearly safely gatling'd from several moves.

Bang's 6B can certainly be beating by a poke, but only if you aren't in blockstun. Better to get in the habit of blocking it, because if someone 5B > 6B's you lose

Giving Jin's 6A cancellability on block would obviously defeat the purpose of it not having cancellability. His only overhead is risky. That should tell you something about Jin; he's not about mix, he's about pressure, overall. Use the character, don't ask for another Ragna or Bang.

[A.X.I.S.]

Sol, you are playing people that aren't using it right then. It makes a vicious frame trap and can be safely or nearly safely gatling'd from several moves.

or maybe I know what it is when I see it...remember I play tager if I even see a whole I can capitalize then I can and will punish...it only sucks when I'm trying to IB the next hit or if I was caught mashing backdash.

[smooshman]

Giving Jin's 6A cancellability on block would obviously defeat the purpose of it not having cancellability. His only overhead is risky. That should tell you something about Jin; he's not about mix, he's about pressure, overall. Use the character, don't ask for another Ragna or Bang.

........except his pressure isn't great, it's only good. on top of that there are characters who have better pressure AND mixup (I don't feel the need to say their names)..... Jin's pressure has more holes now. His 5C>JB is gone, but he gained j236C>airdash; 5D is......; 2D is faster and less punishable.... but it's smaller; 5C is faster (finally) but it has shorter reach (FFFFFFUUUU-); 5B is still solid; 6D is faster and is now more reliable for pressure. At this point Jin just can't compete with the characters who have good pressure (LITCHI:arg:).

Now let's look at jin from a mixup stand point:

high/low..... we've covered his overhead, so his lows.... 3C knocksdown, unsafe as hell; 2B -3, so not that punishable, P1 70 FFFFFFUUUUUU-

crossup JB, J236D are good.

tick throws he's actually really good at these..... to bad BB hates tick throws.

Jin shines brightest when he actually hits you, then he has a lot of ways to control you. However the character that is better at it (litc-AGH) have major advantage (Litchi 7-3 Jin)

in short: jin needs better mixup because his pressure doesn't compensate for it.

[FlyingVe]

Dacid is right, jin just isn't about the mixup, and his pressure is still quite solid. Quite frankly, you sound like you're saying that jin is a bad character in CS, and that simply isn't true. Jin is still very dangerous, he just has to take a bit more risk in everything he does than in CT.

I won't defend litchi though, I have never been taken so much damage from a character with boobs before.

[smooshman]

Dacid is right, jin just isn't about the mixup, and his pressure is still quite solid. Quite frankly, you sound like you're saying that jin is a bad character in CS, and that simply isn't true. Jin is still very dangerous, he just has to take a bit more risk in everything he does than in CT.

I won't defend litchi though, I have never been taken so much damage from a character with boobs before.

he's not a bad character, it just sounds like it when you talk about weaknesses, go figure.

He's still solid, he's just a bit to heat reliant (duh). He does everything fairly well, his pressure is above average. he basically owns the corner with arguably the best corner combo (outside of Ragna, Bang, barbie). His major problem right now is that his poke (5C) is not the best, good, but every single one (okay not all) of Ragna's pokes can beat it clean, 2D can work at range, 5D..... not anymore, and at max range and no CH or heat there is no return damage; his other weakness is air control, air-air he's solid JC will beat a lot of things (not Haku lol) and JB will work to, but his G-A is.... meh; DP's work against high up enemies, but IAD's and jump ins are tough since either the move isn't fast enough (623B/623C) or it lacks IF's (623A). In the end he's solid, he really only has troubles against Bang&co. everyone else is about even or so.

[feri]

the reason 6B would be a good overhead is less to do with it's speed and more to do with the pressure you can do off of it, TK ice swords>air dash>J2C>2B or whatever would be quite scary.

Common misconception is things that are not high/low/throw isnt mixup/pressure.

People fidget. A surprsingly large amount of people dont OS throw tech and 6b jumps.

Deceptive ass mixup after it (late special cancel into something/press buttons).

Gatlings off plenty of moves (IIRC, not sure anymore)... perhaps it might even help against IB > do something attempts.

Just use it anyways...

[Marionette Pwii]

good read....