MiraclePizza Posted February 28, 2010 Posted February 28, 2010 3/9/10 - Fixed some mistakes and oversights. Added system data changes. This should be as good as complete by now, and should there be any more necessary information I'll add them whenever I find out about them. 5/31/10 - Added a few things. Sources are mook (whatever that actually stands for) for CS data and zetaboards for CT data. If you see any mistake please point it out. If the mistake is statistical, please provide the alternate source should you point the mistake out. This isn't 100% perfect, so if you feel that you need to raise an objection to something that I have written, feel free to do so. I don't actually read Japanese, but since I do happen to be able to understand some kanji (guess what language that is) and I have previous sources to compare/refer to, I'm sure that most of the information I provide should be accurate to a reliable degree. But of course, as things tend to be with transcription, there will be bits where I would not be sure of and I'll make note of those parts. Abbreviations/Terms: SD - Standing difference, aka frame advantage/disadvantage on standing normal block. Proration - Number that affects combo damage; bigger number means your moves afterwards in a combo will do more damage. Reverse proration means you will improve your combo damage afterwards (best example is Noel 22C) and is now also a separate value from regular proration. Reverse proration will also only apply once per move per combo. Repeated move penalty - Some moves will have this, and this basically refers to the added proration when you use the said move more than once per combo, smaller number means worse proration. I don't know how the math works, but long story short, using moves that have this value attached to it more than once in your combo will usually severely penalize your damage for the rest of the combo. PP - This no longer exists. Hitstun/untechable time now depend on combo proration. CH - Counterhit, happens when your character gets hit during a move and the announcer shouts out "COUNTER ^_^" or "FATAL ^_^" FC - Fatal counterhit, the CH property of certain moves. Moves in the combo after a FC will have longer hitstun/untechable time (by 2f I believe?). Attack Level - Higher attack level = more hitstun/blockstun/hitstop/CH stun/etc. In Litchi's case, one of the most significant changes is probably her 5A and 2A getting raised by an attack level and therefore can now combo into her 5B (and Tsubame, I guess). CH carry - Multi-hit moves now apply counterhit properties to all hits after the counterhit. For example, if you get a counterhit with the first hit of 6C[m], the 3 hits after it will also have CH hitstun resulting in longer untechable time, etc. In CT this was not true, and only the first hit would have CH properties. CH carry is negated when another move is added between the hits (for example, if you hit them with something before both hits of staff launch, 2nd hit will have normal hit untechable time instead of CH untechable time). [m] - with staff Staff orientation - 5D set means it will launch at an angle and 2D set means it will launch horizontally. Different moves that let go of the staff will set the staff in different orientations. Manten range modifier - I can't read Japanese so this is just a term I made up for what the frame data notes will sometimes describe. Moves with this property will cause the staff to partially "detach" from Litchi and therefore give any staff normal afterwards more range. Prime example of this is Litchi's 2B[m] -> 6A[m] long range overhead. It can also be seen in the 2C[m] -> 5C[m] gatling where 5C[m] range is extended due to the staff appearing to be detached. System Data Movement - All of Litchi's movement values, including walk, run, jump, and backdash are all unchanged, so she is still tied for the fastest jump in the game, still has the longest airdash in the game, and still has the same shitty backdash. Life Bar - 11000, just like before Combo Rate - 80%, just like before - note: While her combo rate remained unchanged, the reason behind her good damage ratio relative to other characters is because of not only the buffs on some of her move prorations, but also because the combo rate of virtually the entire cast got nerfed. There are now no characters with a combo rate higher than 90% other than Arakune at 100% and Taokaka at 95% (lol two of the highest damage characters) while the rest are between 90% and 80% (except for Tager, whose combo rate is 40%). For the sake of reference, her CS combo damage should never be below 2.5k and her max damage hovers between 5k and 7k... heck, the mook has a 2C starter corner combo that does 6904. Staff normals: 5B[m] - SD improved to -6 from -8 - proration nerfed to 90/85 from 90/89 - note: 18f standing blockstun 5C[m] - damage nerfed to 400x2 from 600x2 - proration changed to 100/85 from 80/89 2B[m] - proration improved to 80/89 from 70/89 - note: frame data now mentions that the move is low profile from frames 17-30 - note: manten range modifier after contact 2C[m] - proration improved to 100/89(!) from 85/89 - note: manten range modifier after contact 3C[m] - startup improved to 20f from 21f - proration improved to 100/84 from 100/60 - no longer causes manten return state and is now special cancellable 6A[m] - SD improved to -2(!) from -13 - note: 20f standing blockstun - note: now groundbounces on normal hit - note: fatal counter properties... at max range? during the last few active frames? need confirmation on this one. 6B[m] - now jump cancellable on hit - note: even though the frame data makes no mention of it, this move is now special cancellable on hit 6B feint - both staff and staffless versions are unchanged 6C[m] - proration nerfed to 70/90 from 100/98(!) - now special cancellable on hit - CH carry 6D - new move, hits mid - damage: 600x2 - startup: 15f - SD: +2 - proration: 100/80 - lvl 4 attack - 23f standing blockstun - removes guard primer - CH carry - first hit special cancellable on block and hit - second hit will set staff down in 5D orientation - untechable on air hit - note: this move has travel time, so outside of point blank range this move will generally hit more slowly than 15f 4D - new move, hits overhead - damage: 600 - startup: 22f - SD: -12 - proration: 80/89 - lvl 3 attack - causes 24f stagger on CH - special cancellable on block and hit - foot attribute invincibility from 1-30f, airborne on 22f - sets staff in 2D orientation j.B[m] - unchanged j.C[m] - unchanged j.D[m] - grounded CH now causes 24f stagger - air hit now causes opponent to plummet j.2D - note: frame data lists SD as +5 (I assume this is after the low hit) Staffless normals: 5A - SD improved to +3 from +1 - attack level improved to 1 from 0 5B - proration nerfed to 80/89 from 90/89 - note: now gatlings to 2A 5C - proration improved to 100/89 from 90/89 - counterhit stagger improved to 58f from 57f and now causes fatal counter 2A - SD improved to +1 from +0 - startup improved to 7f from 8f - attack level improved to 1 from 0 2B - startup improved to 12f from 14f - note: frame data now mentions that the move is low profile from frames 12-23 2C - proration improved to 100/89 from 90/89 3C - proration improved to 100/84 from 100/60 6A - unchanged 6B - proration improved to 100/89 from 80/89 6C - damage on first hit nerfed to 300 from 640 - damage on second hit improved to 900 from 840 - CH carry - first hit has repeated move penalty of 70% - both hits are now special cancellable on hit j.A - proration improved to 100/84 from 80/84 j.B - unchanged j.C - unchanged Throws/Misc: Neutral throw - proration nerfed to 100/100*70*60 from 100/100*86*60 Back throw - damage nerfed to 600 from 1100 - proration nerfed to 100/100*55 from 100/100*60 Air throw - damage nerfed to 800 from 1100 - range nerfed to 90000 from 160000 - note: an airthrow range of 160000 is equal to Tager's and Lambda's airthrow range while 90000 is much closer to standard airthrow throw range Command backdash (447) - invincibility time nerfed to 1-19f from 1-24f - is now airborne from 5-34f instead of 1-34f - can now cancel into airdash from 17f instead of 25f (need confirmation) Counter assault (dead angle) - unchanged Drive and drive specials: Neutral staff set (5D[m]) - animation shortened (improved) to 23f total from 29f, so staff now sets down more quickly than before and Litchi is vulnerable for a shorter period of time Crouching staff set (2D[m]) - animation shortened (improved) to 27f total from 38f, so staff now sets down more quickly than before and Litchi is vulnerable for a shorter period of time Staff launch (standing/crouching/jumping D) - air CH improved dramatically; for all intents and purposes, it can be considered to be untechable on air CH - CH carry - note: according to the frame data, damage from staff launch is now determined by orientation from which it is launched, where 5D set staff launch deals 200 per hit (not to be confused with the actual 5D and 2D inputs for staff launch, which both launch 5D staff set at slightly different angles) and 2D set staff launch deals 220 per hit Ittsu stance ([m]41236D) - window for followup input nerfed to 8-48f from 7-48f - note: judging from the frame data, the startup of the Ittsu stance itself is nerfed to 7f from 6f - note: all Ittsu followups other than the cancel have travel time, so startup and SD may vary for the followup attacks; I believe the frame data assumes point blank range for those values IttsuA ([m]41236D~A) - SD nerfed to -14f from -7f - startup nerfed to 7+9f from 6+9f - proration improved (?) to 75*100/90*100 from 75/90*86 - sets staff in 5D orientation - removes guard primer IttsuB ([m]41236D~B) - damage of second hit nerfed to 520 from 720 - SD nerfed to -26f from -17f - startup changed (improved) to 7+7f from 6+9f - proration improved (?) to 90*100/80*100 from 90/80*89 - sets staff in 5D orientation IttsuC ([m]41236D~C) - SD nerfed to -24f from -19f - startup nerfed to 7+9f from 6+9f - proration changed (nerfed?) to 80*100/80*100 from 80/80*86 - sets staff in 2D orientation Stance cancel ([m]41236D~D) - new move, cancels Ittsu stance - duration of 7+17f (so 7f for the stance startup and 17f for the cancel animation itself) Tsubame Gaeshi (623D) - damage on falling staff hit improved to 1400(!) from 810 - SD nerfed to -23f from -20f - proration nerfed to 80/86x3*40 from 80/86 (to be specific, only the proration on the falling hit was drastically nerfed) - sets staff in 5D orientation Staffless specials: Haku (236A) - unchanged - note: "followup" version of Haku has a 85% repeated move penalty Hatsu (236B and j.236B) - both ground and air versions unchanged Chun (236C) - "starter" Chun damage is nerfed to 700 from 800, proration is nerfed to 80/80 from 90/90, SD is nerfed to -10 from -7, and has a repeated move penalty of 85% Chun (air) (j.236C) - "starter" damage is nerfed to 690 from 800, proration is nerfed to 80/80 from 90/90, and has a repeated move penalty of 85% - note: SD improved to +3 from +2 - I assume they refer to the lowest possible TK Chun RiichiA (63214A and j.63214A) - unchanged IppatsuA (A while standing on staff) - proration changed to 100/90 from 90/98 - repeated move penalty: 80% - now reverse prorates 110% - note: CS frame data lists no SD, but according to the other values, it should still be -5f IppatsuB (A while standing on staff) - new move, it is now a falling Hatsu - damage: 760 - startup: 17f - SD: -1 - proration: 100/100 - lvl 4 attack - removes guard primer - note: frame data says something about Daisangen and Chun in the notes for this move IppatsuC (C while standing on staff) - new move, it is now a falling Chun and hits overhead - damage: 690 - startup: 21f - SD: +0 - proration: 80/80 - lvl 4 attack - removes guard primer - note: I'm fairly certain that the frame data says that it's "untechable on CH", of course by which they refer to emergency tech (same kind of "untechable" that is attached to sweeps) RiichiB (63214B and j.63214B) - unchanged RiichiC (63214C and j.63214C) - unchanged Shishin (5D orientation~41236D) - will now always rise vertically for 7 hits, guaranteed startup after 18f - damage: 520x7 - proration: 80/80 - CH carry Shishin (2D orientation~42136D) - proration nerfed to 80/80 from 100/95 - CH carry Kote (staffless 623D and 421D) - forward staff hop (623D) will set staff in 5D orientation - backwards staff hop (421D) will set staff in 2D orientation - note: as before, this move will trigger during manten return state and cause the staff to be set down before it reattaches completely Distortion Drives Kokushi Musou (staffless 632146D) - damage nerfed to 250x16 from 350x16 - proration nerfed to 85/85 from 100/95 - removes guard primer - CH carry - guaranteed 20% minimum damage Ryuuisou (6428C) - startup nerfed to 6+0 from 1+1 - SD nerfed to -9 from +1 - removes guard primer - guaranteed 20% minimum damage - note: for those of you who have seen the "superflash buffer video", all the Ryuuisou moments in that video where the other character takes advantage of the Ryuuisou superflash to do something invincible no longer applies if the other character is within Ryuuisou range since there is no longer any time after the superflash for them to input any move, just like how it is with Tager's 720 Daisharin ([m]632146D) - damage for the first 1-5 hits improved to 360 per hit from 290 - startup nerfed to 13+14 from 4+15 - proration nerfed to 85*90/90*92 from 100/95*92 - falling hit removes guard primer - sets staff in 2D orientation - no longer invincible on startup; now only invincible from superflash to 8f after superflash - guaranteed 20% minimum damage AH (5D while standing on staff after RiichiA) - startup: 25+1f - invincible until landing (?) - recovery is 75f after landing - note: well, as far as I can see, the frame data says nothing about special blockstun, so even if this is blocked at the last possible active frame, SD would be approximately 18-75= -57 (very unsafe!) Whew, I guess this will be it for now. Like I said, it's not up to 100% as I would like it to be, but the fully translated frame data should be out soon (heck, if it's not already out). I'll also need some confirmation on the Haku and Chun "starter" variations or whatever it's actually referring to. Note: I recently found out that some moves ignore character base proration (Litchi's is still 80% btw), and I would be curious as to which moves do that.
MiraclePizza Posted February 28, 2010 Author Posted February 28, 2010 Thanks LK. I also added/changed a few things that I overlooked or was mistaken on.
Lord Knight Posted March 1, 2010 Posted March 1, 2010 Oh, Astral Heat can be inputted as D on the staff lololol Also as far as I know, the Haku/Chun "starter" should be referring to using Haku or Chun at the start of a rekka series. So if you start a combo with Haku Chun Hatsu Haku Chun, the second set of Haku Chun should be affected by loop proration.
MiraclePizza Posted March 13, 2010 Author Posted March 13, 2010 Oh whoops, it wasn't "starter", but rather "followup" lol. Ok now the repeated move penalties make more sense. As for the astral input, do you mean you can just charge 4 and then do 5D on the staff?
MiraclePizza Posted March 14, 2010 Author Posted March 14, 2010 Fixed, along with other minor changes.
Lord Knight Posted April 22, 2010 Posted April 22, 2010 Just was wondering what kind of normals do "low profile" moves actually go under? I saw Kimura recently spamming 2B[m] against a Jin like it was the best move ever. And also what other characters have normals with this property (I know Hazama's 3C falls under this)?
shtkn Posted April 22, 2010 Posted April 22, 2010 it definitely dodges jin's 236A/B/C. I didn't realize this "low profile" thing was a move property, and just assumed it was a hitbox thing. The only other low profile move i can think of is tao's crawling
Lord Knight Posted April 22, 2010 Posted April 22, 2010 In CT 2B didn't go under those moves when I thought it did. They definitely did not change the way the actual move looks either. I already know Litchi's crouch is ultra low, maybe using 2B in conjunction will help her go under some moves she normally couldn't? Worth looking into.
qwerty Posted April 22, 2010 Posted April 22, 2010 i don't know how shit hits in this game (i mash hotaru and it lands, so w/e), but if this is what it sounds like then it would make sense that you could do a low profile move (or an attribute that effectively does the same thing) to make certain moves whiff. see: low profile moves vs vapor thrust in gg. since vapor thrust doesn't hit at ground level, going under it is a viable option if you're able to.
Lord Knight Posted April 22, 2010 Posted April 22, 2010 Well yeah. I guess I worded that strangely. I just want training mode so I can see what I can go under tbh
qwerty Posted April 22, 2010 Posted April 22, 2010 i'll get someone to check the mook for any kind of special notes on litchi's lows. if this type of thing exists, it's either due to some sort of weird caveat in foot attribute only moves (unlikely) or some weird hitbox bullshit (far more likely).
MiraclePizza Posted May 31, 2010 Author Posted May 31, 2010 I transcribed the notes for both the 2B's as "low profile" because they have the Kanji for "low" in them, along with other Kanji that I'm not 100% on but am almost sure that can be used to describe what's in context here (low state? low position? something along those lines). Wouldn't be surprised if it was just another way of describing invincibility for both head and body, or at least that would seem to be the case for this specific move.
Urichinan Posted May 31, 2010 Posted May 31, 2010 You missed that her 5B now gatlings into 2A without the staff, 6A[m] now auto-bounces (still luanches on normal hit instead of just on CH) and that her 5A/2A now COMBOS into her 5B[m] on a standing opponent . (5A/2A only combos on CH or on a crouching opponent in CT) EDIT: They descibe Taokaka's 3 (Crawl) as "low profile" so she may be able to go uner projectiles/high hitting mids with 2B now!
Lord Knight Posted May 31, 2010 Posted May 31, 2010 Those changes aren't listed in the frame data, hence why they aren't here.
MiraclePizza Posted May 31, 2010 Author Posted May 31, 2010 You missed that her 5B now gatlings into 2A without the staff, 6A[m] now auto-bounces (still luanches on normal hit instead of just on CH) and that her 5A/2A now COMBOS into her 5B[m] on a standing opponent . (5A/2A only combos on CH or on a crouching opponent in CT) Thanks for bringing those up. I'll add those in later since they are technically important changes but the main reason why I didn't put them in was probably because they are already known well enough to the point where it felt like it would be redundant to point them out again. Interestingly enough, the frame data does actually mention that 6A[m] will always groundbounce but I didn't make note of it for the reason mentioned above. 5A/2A comboing into 5B[m] wasn't explicitly mentioned but is represented by the attack level increase on 5A/2A. The 5B->2A gatling wasn't mentioned at all.
Phrekwenci Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Hey guys, I just bought CS today. And I feel the timing is way off on a lot of the moves. Is this normal? I know they add some recovery time after the Tsubame but is there anything else?
Dator Posted August 29, 2010 Posted August 29, 2010 Most places won't return an open game...good luck.
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