[CS1] Jin vs Ragna

[smooshman]

but the real reason this match up is so bad is our 5c man....

so true.... the lack of 5C's range make footsies suicide, as ALL his pokes are 100fucking% better, and 5C's bad range makes escape attempts harder since his pressure has him far away from you, so you can't do much to get out.... 623D is really your only non-DD reversal. Ragna's pokes and range wreck Jin's shit, and Jin's zoning is to mediocre to control him... even CT 5D/JB couldn't save us...

[Yuushiro]

dont forget 3C,

and also need to know the spacing and when is best to use either 5B or 5C..., eventhough 5B doesnt really lead to a lot of damage but it will keep them from rushing in 5B into you all the time.

also there's no reason to rush down into ragna.., try to counter things that he does..., and remember jin 5B is faster than his 5B.

[smooshman]

dont forget 3C,

and also need to know the spacing and when is best to use either 5B or 5C..., eventhough 5B doesnt really lead to a lot of damage but it will keep them from rushing in 5B into you all the time.

also there's no reason to rush down into ragna.., try to counter things that he does..., and remember jin 5B is faster than his 5B.

3C? risky, but rewarding

true 5B is faster... by 1 frame, but it's range is.... bleh.

countering Ragna is definetly the way to go, the pay off works, but it's harder to do than rushing him down (which is much more dangerous). you don't want him gaining momentum, you don't have to have it (though it's always nice :v), but if he gets any momentum you're SOL.

[Yuushiro]

pressuring ragna is more dangerous than trying to counter him, his DP is too good...

he can IB > DP a lot of the time,

of course I am not talking merely for online play since it's hard to do that online.

and 3C is just one of the tool you can use, dont forget your air approach..

try to understand also when a specific ragna player like to mash DP or use their DP

if you try watching some very high level japanese jin vs ragna match a lot of the time the jin will pause from time to time to bait the DP, that's half of the game against ragna.

[flytai45]

Ok so I have played quite a few ragna's online and i was wondering how i should deal with a common tactic that

most of them seemed to share. They would use hell's fang to approach which i would naturally block and then

punish. However, once this started happening, they would usually do a Dp after the hell's fang which would

beat out most of my punish options (all but my dp which only worked occasionally) so i naturally blocked the dp as well.

But, once I started blocking the Dp they would just stop doing it after the hells fang and instead of punishing that

hells fangi just sit there blocking because im expectin a dp. So i guess my question would be, what is my best option

when my opponent does a hells fang?

[smooshman]

IB hell's fang, I got that advice and it works... you can just IB>A fubuki them....

but you have to practice that.

[lxMetalSonicxl]

Through a little testing, on instant block you can sekkajin for a good meterless combo on MOST occasions. There are some awkward positions where it will not work and Ragna can just block. You can always do a 5B combo though.

[Kristoph]

Well, baiting that DP even once is enough to make them think twice about doing it again without meter. The risk-reward is really not in their favor there, so I say jabbing them is fine so long as you make them aware that you're perfectly willing to bait out the DP from time to time.

And smooshman, why A fubuki? Can't you like, 5b them or something instead?

[smooshman]

And smooshman, why A fubuki? Can't you like, 5b them or something instead?

well, that's an example, but yeah 5B will work, I was just thinking about keeping him away.

[djKun]

so true.... the lack of 5C's range make footsies suicide, as ALL his pokes are 100fucking% better, and 5C's bad range makes escape attempts harder since his pressure has him far away from you, so you can't do much to get out.... 623D is really your only non-DD reversal. Ragna's pokes and range wreck Jin's shit, and Jin's zoning is to mediocre to control him... even CT 5D/JB couldn't save us...

And Ragna can keep pressuring so hard with some of his blockstring mixups and whatnot that it's hard to just get out in general. I made one mistake here and there and holy shit my HP bar goes down like its on sale for $4.99 or something.

I tried to see what's good against ragna but a timed B fubuki can beat out his j.C, Jin's j.C also helps out if you can manage to hit him at all from a distance (since it's probably his only longest normal he has :\ ). Air C ice blades helps out just not so much :\. I felt like I might have to try playing the street fighter fireball traps or something.

And iuno bout you guys but its hard for Jin to pressure Ragna. End a blockstring and it usually opens up a window for Ragna to do at least something to screw you over. Like a DP. And that alone is quite a bitch when I don't think Jin can even DP through his blockstrings of omgwtfbbqs

[Nov Ganon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVAZ07iK8ho&feature=related

maybe this will help u guys

[flytai45]

im trying to learn how to IB ragna and i was trying to figure out what i should look for in hist strings to hint at when he's gonna do a move that i can IB. for example: i learned on my own that after ragna does that horizontal slash(5c maybe) he may do that dash punch ehich i should try to IB....stuff like this

edit: also what should i look for to determine whether or not hell do an overhead/ low attack

thx in advance

Edited December 30, 2010 by flytai45

[Jetm]

im trying to learn how to IB ragna and i was trying to figure out what i should look for in hist strings to hint at when he's gonna do a move that i can IB. for example: i learned on my own that after ragna does that horizontal slash(5c maybe) he may do that dash punch ehich i should try to IB....stuff like this

edit: also what should i look for to determine whether or not hell do an overhead/ low attack

thx in advance

To be truthful, you should eventually reach a point where you can IB attacks on reaction. Just take it to training mode and set Ragna to repeat the pressure you often see. Knowing what your opponent can do is half the battle. Later on you can try practicing with other characters to better understand their options.

When it comes to mixing your opponent up, that's more or less up to you. Your overhead is fast, but it only have a few viable lead-ins, and those happen to be very obvious (IE 2A dash 6A links) and also very poke-able. Not to mention it's very unsafe on block, so make sure you RC that shit if they block it. Also note that the 2A into dashing 6A lead-in looks very similar to one of your tick throw setups (if you're going to go for one, I would recommend 2A 5A whiff on a crouching opponent into throw), and this may prompt the opponent to attempt to tech the throw. Which will beat your overhead. People usually fail to block 6As that come right after an aerial overhead. Most won't think to keep blocking high after that.

Lows often come into play after a feinting j.5B or other aerial overhead that would make your opponent think to block high. There is no set time to overhead or attack low. It's all up to you and how you think your opponent is going to act. Don't be predictable and you'll catch your opponent once in a while. If you are going to low, try to use 2B. Much less reward, but for an equally smaller risk. 3C might net you 3k+, but it's not terribly safe on block. You can cancel into Ice Sword A to make it marginally safer, but it's still -6 or so on block, maybe a little less because of sword travel time, and thus punishable on IB.

Other than that, come up with your own little gimmicks into mixups. Rapid canceling 3C into dash 6A will trip up a lot of opponents. Just don't do it if you actually hit with the 3C.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Jetm

[flytai45]

To be truthful, you should eventually reach a point where you can IB attacks on reaction. Just take it to training mode and set Ragna to repeat the pressure you often see. Knowing what your opponent can do is half the battle. Later on you can try practicing with other characters to better understand their options.

When it comes to mixing your opponent up, that's more or less up to you. Your overhead is fast, but it only have a few viable lead-ins, and those happen to be very obvious (IE 2A dash 6A links) and also very poke-able. Not to mention it's very unsafe on block, so make sure you RC that shit if they block it. Also note that the 2A into dashing 6A lead-in looks very similar to one of your tick throw setups (if you're going to go for one, I would recommend 2A 5A whiff on a crouching opponent into throw), and this may prompt the opponent to attempt to tech the throw. Which will beat your overhead. People usually fail to block 6As that come right after an aerial overhead. Most won't think to keep blocking high after that.

Lows often come into play after a feinting j.5B or other aerial overhead that would make your opponent think to block high. There is no set time to overhead or attack low. It's all up to you and how you think your opponent is going to act. Don't be predictable and you'll catch your opponent once in a while. If you are going to low, try to use 2B. Much less reward, but for an equally smaller risk. 3C might net you 3k+, but it's not terribly safe on block. You can cancel into Ice Sword A to make it marginally safer, but it's still -6 or so on block, maybe a little less because of sword travel time, and thus punishable on IB.

Other than that, come up with your own little gimmicks into mixups. Rapid canceling 3C into dash 6A will trip up a lot of opponents. Just don't do it if you actually hit with the 3C.

ok thanks

[Menthus]

My blockstrings are getting a bit predictable (5B>2B>3C>236A/D) and I'm looking for some new stuff. I'm fighting this Ragna and he eventually caught on to me never using overheads (6A is awful) so now I need something that gives me some overhead moves. Any recommendations? Also, what options do I have against Ragnas using Dead Spike on wakeup in the corner?

[Erlkonig]

My blockstrings are getting a bit predictable (5B>2B>3C>236A/D) and I'm looking for some new stuff. I'm fighting this Ragna and he eventually caught on to me never using overheads (6A is awful) so now I need something that gives me some overhead moves. Any recommendations? Also, what options do I have against Ragnas using Dead Spike on wakeup in the corner?

On wakeup , you can do C.DP or 6B if you're very close , otherwise block or jump. Try doing 6A after knockdown , a j.b or after a 3c > 236D reset.

[Moy_X7]

Heheh, what, don't tell me that's the only block string you use? Vary your block strings according to your opponent, if you see that he often mashes out of pressure with 2A then go for something like 2Axn > 5B > 2C to frame trap his ass. Make him worry about cross-ups by doing something like 2Axn > (delayed) j.2C for a cross-up or 2Axn > Stuff > 5C (max range) > IAD j.B/j.D and by throwing out j.236D feint-cross-ups in those two scenarios (although the latter loses a bit of j.236D's feint cross-up potential). Throw out some 6Bs and 6Ds if you've built a respectable distance from your opponent.

As for 6A, read what JetM wrote above, and find ways to incorporate 6A into your game as long as you have the 50 Heat to RC it. The other way that Jin can land an overhead is by doing the 3C > 236D reset. Simply jump after you land the 236D and go for an air dash > j.B.j.2C right before hitting the ground. Mix-it up with 2B or a tick throw using that same setup.

As for Dead Spike, he probably uses Dead Spike the moment he sees the Neutral Tech "flash", you could go for a Quick Tech and 5C him, sneaky shit since he won't have the "flash" to better help him use Dead Spike. If he's being too predictable with it, then simply DP D him out of that habit.

[Menthus]

Heheh, what, don't tell me that's the only block string you use? Vary your block strings according to your opponent, if you see that he often mashes out of pressure with 2A then go for something like 2Axn > 5B > 2C to frame trap his ass. Make him worry about cross-ups by doing something like 2Axn > (delayed) j.2C for a cross-up or 2Axn > Stuff > 5C (max range) > IAD j.B/j.D and by throwing out j.236D feint-cross-ups in those two scenarios (although the latter loses a bit of j.236D's feint cross-up potential). Throw out some 6Bs and 6Ds if you've built a respectable distance from your opponent.

Yeah, I know I need to vary my blockstrings more, that's kind of the whole reason I came here asking for help. I have a question about crossing up with j.D though. If your opponent does manage to block it, wouldn't that leave you at a severe disadvantage without meter to rapid?

As for 6A, read what JetM wrote above, and find ways to incorporate 6A into your game as long as you have the 50 Heat to RC it. The other way that Jin can land an overhead is by doing the 3C > 236D reset. Simply jump after you land the 236D and go for an air dash > j.B.j.2C right before hitting the ground. Mix-it up with 2B or a tick throw using that same setup.

I'll try to work on this.

As for Dead Spike, he probably uses Dead Spike the moment he sees the Neutral Tech "flash", you could go for a Quick Tech and 5C him, sneaky shit since he won't have the "flash" to better help him use Dead Spike. If he's being too predictable with it, then simply DP D him out of that habit.

The problem is that he's pretty smart with spacing and places himself just outside 623D range. I'll have to try the quick tech though and see how he'll react to that.

[Moy_X7]

I have a question about crossing up with j.D though. If your opponent does manage to block it, wouldn't that leave you at a severe disadvantage without meter to rapid?

Yup, j.D cross-ups come with a high risk for a moderate reward. If you space yourself correctly and allow Jin enough time to reposition himself after the cross-up, then you can cancel it into the j.236 series. If you go for a straight j.D cross-up without letting Jin reposition himself, then you're screwed without 50 Heat, you could try to j.214D and hightail it out of there but you'll most likely still get caught during the startup lol.

There's one way that you can take advantage of a straight j.D cross-up without letting Jin reposition himself on the other side of the screen and that's by going for a double cross-up against characters with big hit-boxes like Tager. The way this works is that you use a j.D cross-up, it gets blocked and you cancel it into j.236D. Since you didn't give Jin enough time to reposition himself, he'll shoot the Ice Blades on the opposite direction of your opponent and you'll still get punished BUT j.236D pushes Jin back and the opponent will have to block in the opposite direction again in order to block j.236D.

lol gimmicks

Edited January 25, 2011 by Moy_X7

[a Lisianthus]

ragna can just DP j.D for free and get a CH even if you j236d... maybe if you try to ice car away it'll work

[shadow2bolt]

Eh? DP j.D? If it is 623C then he has to do it the other way in which if not done almost right away, will whiff and free 4k+ combo for Jin.

[jekroland]

hey people ive got a question how can counter it if ragna is using hells fang to corner me all the time

[T.Kang]

hey people ive got a question how can counter it if ragna is using hells fang to corner me all the time

I'll go ahead and assume that both you and that guy are inexperienced and that he's probably using Hell's Fang's followup even on block. If it's the case, you can either:

- Block normally (that lets him one guard primer though!) and punish with 5B.

- Instant block (shit's so obvious, you can do it!) and punish him with more damaging stuff.

If it's Hell's Fang (1), you can 2a him out of his recovery frames if I remember correctly (haven't played against him for a while...). If that Ragna is HF spamming, you're doing it wrong. Another option that has quite a bit risk to it with little reward is DPing him out of it. I usually do that when I really get irritated and know he's about to do it again.

And full-screen knockdowns should not be that threatening. He has to run up to you and most Ragnas either do: 5b, 2b or 6b. So you can either Jump, DP C him out of it. Barrier blocking is important considering the fact that he eats primers like it's lunch. If his pressure game gets too overwhelming just go for a counter assault.

[jekroland]

Thank you for that info