BBCS Character Analysis

[Spirit Juice]

Okay, it's done. Just remember that these are my opinions, and they are supposed to reflect (or try to) why the Japanese have placed those characters in their respective spots on the tier list. It's based on an objective thought process and created from my knowledge of the game. It's not going to be 100% accurate, but I do think I got pretty close. This is based on some JBBS posts (from a few years ago) about each GGAC character, and I thought it was a good way of breaking down each character.

Average damage: Average damage, usually “bread and butter” damage, ability to get comparable damage from any hit is also a factor

Max damage: Max possible damage (in practical terms)

Pokes: How good their pokes are

Breaking out of pressure: Getting out of pressure using reversals, normals, special moves, or counter-assaults

Mix up: How well a character can put you in a situation where you have to guess or read multiple outcomes

Pressure: How well a character can keep you blocking; leads into mix up

Okizeme: How well a character can force a mix up game on the opponent’s wake up; in BB, this usually means how well they can control your ground tech options

Against Ground: Air to ground; how well the character can approach a grounded opponent from the air

Against Air: Air to air or ground to air; how well the character can anti-air an opponent from the ground or in the air

Defense: Life, hit boxes, and guard primers

In general situations: Best described as neutral situations, i.e. when neither character is on the offensive or defensive

Overall: Overall rank

Good matchups: Notable favorable matchups

Bad matchups: Notable unfavorable matchups

[Arakune]

Average damage E/S: Outside of fever mode, Arakune has pitiful damage; in fever mode he has very high damage off of many hit confirms

Max damage E/SS: Same deal as average damage, but if Arakune gets the right set up, he can easily deal 11k with meter… and it’s practical too!

Pokes E: 2D and j.D are pokes… I guess?

Breaking out of pressure C: His counter-assault is pretty good and so are his teleports

Mix up D/A: Outside of fever mode, Arakune only has some slow overheads to really hit you with; in fever mode, he has some nice cross up tricks

Pressure E/S: Again, fever mode is where he gets all of his pressure from; you’re going to be blocking for a very long time

Okizeme D: None really exists, since prior to fever mode he’s just trying to curse you, and fever mode combos don’t end with a knock down

Against ground B: Since dive was nerfed, j.B is the staple jump in attack; it will even clash with the best AAs

Against air D: 5C has head attribute invulnerability, but it’s pretty slow; no reliable air to air attacks

Defense D: Below average HP, but has five guard primers; wide hit box makes him susceptible to unique combos

In general situations C: Most of the time, Arakune flies around and tries to get people to run into stuff that gets them cursed; once someone gets cursed, the round is usually over

Overall B: Arakune is much different character than his CT counter part; it is harder for him to get a curse going, but once he does, the round is usually over

Good matchups: None are notable

Bad matchups: Lambda; old habits die hard in this matchup… not much as changed from CT to CS

[bang]

Average damage A: Pretty much every combo he gets is going to be 3k+, with some being a bit higher if he omits oki opportunity

Max damage S: Daifunka does tons of damage still, and many combos can lead into it; air throw combos into the corner net huge damage with or without meter

Pokes B+: 5A and 5B are good pokes, but Bang doesn’t really need great pokes in order to be effective

Breaking out of pressure B: Guard points are now faster, and Ashura is very fast and safe versus most of the cast

Mix up A: Mix up is about the same as it was in CT, except the buffs on his normals made frame traps a lot stronger; nails were buffed and command grab is scarier than ever

Pressure A: If Bang has nails, expect to be blocking for a while

Okizeme A: Many combos lead to knockdown, which lead straight back into Bang’s mix up game

Against ground B: Nails are a great way of getting in safely

Against air A: Guard points, 5A, j.A, and nails are all solid choices

Defense B: Above average health, good amount of guard primers

In general situations S: With Bang’s good mobility, ability to use his bumpers, guard points, good normals, and nails, he’s very solid during neutral situations

Overall S: Between Bang’s buffs and other characters’ nerfs, he has ascended to god tier status; he’s versatile in every aspect of the game

Good matchups: Jin, Lambda, Tager, Tsubaki, and Rachel due to his ability to control space and pressure them without mercy

Bad matchups: Dora’s Bang

[Carl]

Average damage B+: With stronger normals, Carl’s average damage is up since CT, and some set ups can net him 4k damage

Max damage A: Carl’s average good enough to get by without using supers, but adding a super can add a bit of damage

Pokes B: 5C is a good poke, and Nirvana does have some good pokes herself, albeit slow

Breaking out of pressure C: Poor defensive options; gear super on wake up is not reliable, but his counter-assault is good

Mix up B+: j.2C is no longer an overhead, but it can still be used as a cross up

Pressure A: Being sandwiched between Nirvana and Carl is the last place you want to be, except now you don’t die in one combo

Okizeme C: Carl lacks knockdown from a lot of his combos, making oki difficult; even if Carl does get a knockdown, he can’t do much about techs without Nirvana

Against ground C: Carl lacks any kind of strong jump in; not a character that should be approaching from the air without Nirvana’s help

Against air A: 6A is good anti-air, Nirvana has good anti-air moves as well; j.C is decent air to air

Defense D: Tied for lowest health in the game, only four guard primers

In general situations A: Carl’s zoning is very strong with the addition of Volante; hiding behind Nirvana is a good strategy in most cases

Overall A: While Carl doesn’t kill the majority of the cast with one combo anymore, he is largely unchanged; buffs to his normals means more damage from his combos

Good matchups: Rachel, Tager, Tsubaki; all have trouble dealing with Nirvana

Bad matchups: Litchi can safely disable Nirvana from a distance, and generally can approach safely with her staff specials; her damage output and pressure make short work of Carl’s poor defense

[Hakumen]

Average damage B+: Like last game, Hakumen’s damage greatly depends on his meter; lands about 3.5k from “dust loop”; lower damage overall compared to CT, but for CS’s standards, it’s very solid

Max damage S: If Hakumen has the meter, he can easily do a lot of damage

Pokes S: 4C and j.C are beyond the realm of godly; both are very safe and very fast, and j.C can lead to knockdown

Breaking out of pressure A: Counters are buffed and are deadlier now, and his CA is still pretty good; if you make a mistake in your pressure string, Hakumen will make you pay for it

Mix up C: Same as CT; nothing has really changed

Pressure C: Meter dependent; same as CT

Okizeme B: Hakumen can get knockdown from his staple dust loop and force you to neutral tech; overall nothing too scary

Against ground B+: j.2C is slow but still has a good hit box, and j.C can be good at max range as well; j.B has uses too

Against air A: Hakumen’s 6A anti-air is no longer a reliable anti-air, so he has to make due with 5A and j.C; both are solid choices

Defense A: Second highest health total and six guard primers make Hakumen pretty beefy

In general situations A: Hakumen’s trouble of dealing zoning characters has been amended somewhat by him being able to cut projectiles which results in an “anti-projectile” shield; combine that with his godly pokes and you have yourself a winning combination

Overall A: Greatly improved compared to his CT self, and probably one of the most improved characters in the game; very strong

Good matchups: Hazama; Hazama’s drives only work in Hakumen’s favor by being able to cut them and create the shield, making it difficult for Hazama to approach Hakumen while Hakumen just builds more and more meter

Bad matchups: Nothing notable

[Hazama]

Average damage B+: His BnBs are generally over 3k damage, sometimes more, and build him a ton of meter, which leads to…

Max damage S: JAYAKU HOUTENJIN! IB a move, do the super, do absurd amounts of damage; ‘nuff said

Pokes B: 3C has decent range, and his drive moves can be good pokes if used correctly

Breaking out of pressure A: Jayaku comes out way fast, and even on trade, it’s still in your favor

Mix up C: Slow high/low attacks, has a good command grab though (low damage but builds meter)

Pressure D: Not a pressure character; it doesn’t take long before Hazama is out of range to even attempt pressure

Okizeme C: He has knockdown after his air combos, but he can’t really do a whole lot with it

Against ground D: j.2C is your only real option, and it’s slow; drive attacks leave something to be desired, and no one should really get hit by those at full screen

Against air C: 2C can be useful but it’s pretty slow, 214D~B (I think that’s the right one) can be used as a poor man’s anti-air, 623D can sometimes be used too

Defense C: Above average life, but only four primers; tall hit box

In general situations B+: Drive moves at full screen are generally very safe, and on hit can lead to his BnB; he can also be annoying and fly around the screen a lot

Overall B: Very solid character with nothing too broken about him

Good matchups: Tager; he’s big, fat, and slow; Tager’s pressure is also IB into FC Jayoku bait

Bad matchups: Hakumen; drives can be cut while Hakumen sits there, gains meter, and makes Hazama eat big damage once he gets hit

[Jin]

Average damage B: Jin can get 3k or so damage from a lot of starters, so long as he uses a little bit of meter

Max damage A: Adding ice arrow super at the end of the combo can add a respectable amount of damage; Jin can actually get up to 5k damage if he uses two ice arrow supers

Pokes B: 5C is a good poke, but other than that, Jin lacks a strong array of pokes; j.C can also be used as a poke when low to the ground

Breaking out of pressure B: C DP still has a lot of invincibility and so does D DP, but the return is minimal

Mix up B: Pretty much the same as CT, although nerfed normals such as j.B makes things a bit more difficult

Pressure B: j.B nerf made his pressure weaker, but otherwise it’s similar to CT

Okizeme B: Nerfed 214B hurts his okizeme (no more knockdown from anything anymore), so he has to spend meter to get oki from air combos; 2B can still catch forward techs; 3C into 236C in the corner is great oki

Against ground B: j.B is slower but still has a great hit box, and j.2C is good too; at max range j.C can be good

Against air B: j.C is great air to air, but Jin still lacks a reliable anti-air; DPs are not reliable

Defense B: Above average health, five primers, but has a tall standing hit box

In general situations B: Jin’s zoning is solid with his fireballs, but he lacks air control or ways to deal with opponents approaching from the air

Overall B: Jin is a jack of all trades, but a master of none; his mix up, pressure, and damage from CT has been nerfed, making him less solid than before; a prime example of a “middle ground” type of character

Good matchups: Rachel, counters her zoning fairly well

Bad matchups: Bang, Litchi, and Ragna give Jin problems due to their stronger pokes and damage output

[Lambda]

Average damage C: Hits from swords lead to low damage, and without the proper set up, she can’t get a lot of damage from her BnBs

Max damage A: From certain set ups such as Cavalier or Crescent Saber loop she can get over 4k

Pokes A: While not as stupid good as Nu’s swords, Lambda’s swords are still very powerful tools; her other normals aren’t very powerful poking tools

Breaking out of pressure C: Her only option is her gravity field, which now has a ton of invincibility frames; her CA is decent but her nerfed meter gain from CT means she should probably save her meter for RCs

Mix up D: Her overhead is a bit better, but that’s about it; she relies on her zoning for damage, not mix up

Pressure D: She can use her swords a little bit to pressure, but it’s not an endless barrage like it was in CT

Okizeme B: Although she can get pseudo-knockdown with Crescent Saber, it’s not a real knockdown; sweep into Spike Chaser forces them to neutral tech or they’re going to get hit

Against ground D: All of her normals get anti-aired by any decent anti-air

Against air A: 2C is no longer the answer to every jump in ever, but 6A, 6D, and 2D can make approaching from the air difficult

Defense D: Below average health, average primers

In general situations A: Hands down best zoning in the game; she’s very comfortable being on the other side of the screen

Overall B: Solid character, but relies heavily on zoning

Good matchups: Arakune, Tager, and Rachel; all three have trouble dealing with her zoning

Bad matchups: Bang; nails give her trouble and once he gets in, she just can’t get away

[Spirit Juice]

[Litchi]

Average damage S: Litchi combos hurt, except when they start with an A attack… but there’s virtually no reason to use her 5A or 2A so it doesn’t matter; pretty much any hit will lead to a 4k to 5k combo

Max damage S: Her usual combos do 4-5k already, but FC 2C combos or comboing into super can break 6k or more

Pokes S: So long as Litchi has her staff, she has a wide array of pokes that can lead into nasty damage; only weakness is that they’re a bit on the slow side

Breaking out of pressure C: Litchi’s DP got nerfed, so the return for landing one isn’t very good

Mix up A: While Litchi’s overhead is decent, it’s not the primary source of mix up for her; her mix up game is based around catching the opponent when they try to get out of her pressure; should they not take a risk and decide to block, they’re back to square one of her pressure game

Pressure S: With her being able to “mist cancel” (or stance cancel I guess) as a legitimate form of pressure, Litchi can continue pressure for a very long time; 6D is also stupidly good at doing this too because it’s safe, puts Litchi right next to the opponent, and is stance cancelable

Okizeme S: All of Litchi’s combos end with knockdown and give her not only a push to the corner, but they also give her a lot of meter; one combo gives her enough meter to super, and ending a combo with Dai Sharin gives her guaranteed oki; pretty much any combo she does forces you to neutral tech or you’re going to eat another combo

Against ground A: j.B is still godly

Against air B: Litchi still lacks a reliable anti-air, but 2C and sometimes DP work; j.C is also great air to air and leads to big damage on CH; her stance~A move can also catch people out of the air (which leads to a combo)

Defense C: Average life, average amount of primers, tall hit box

In general situations A: With a good array of pokes, placing the staff and using it for zoning, and the overall changes to other characters, Litchi is great in neutral situations

Overall S: Litchi is just absolutely absurd in CS; her damage output from practically any hit is very high, and her oki is comparable to CT Rachel’s

Good matchups: Tager and Rachel are the most notable; they can’t really do anything about her superior reach with her normals and zoning

Bad matchups: None

[Noel]

Average damage C: Damage from random hits is poor, so Noel has to rely on landing ideal set ups (6B, 3C, or a drive attack) in order to get bigger damage

Max damage A+: Noel can get between 4.5k and 5.5k depending on the set up used and if she has meter to super; fortunately her drive combos give her a ton of meter

Pokes C: 5C is pretty good, and on CH it can lead to 3C combos; 5B is decent at the right range

Breaking out of pressure C: She can reversal super out of pressure if desired, but it’s probably better and safer to use her really good counter-assault

Mix up B: It’s hard to rank her mix up because she relies on playing very dangerously to mix up, but if your “yomi” is strong, her mix up can catch people off guard

Pressure C+: 5A is still decent but not as great as before, and drive spam is less threatening now; Noel’s pressure doesn’t last for very long

Okizeme C: Noel can force okizeme in the corner, but she can’t get much damage, if any, off of tech roll punishes

Against ground D: j.B’s hit box got nerfed so it’s not a reliable jump in anymore, and although j.C’s hit box is fairly wide, it does not offer much vertically

Against air C: 6A only works at certain angles, although j.A and j.B work decently as air to air moves

Defense C: Average life, although she only has four guard primers; tall hit box

In general situations B: Although she lacks any solid pokes or full screen presence, her good run speed and mobility help her in neutral situations

Overall B: Noel might seem bad to a lot of players, but she is both the same and different compared to her CT counter part; her play style heavily relies on being able to read the opponent and conditioning them

Good matchups: None really; slight advantage against Rachel but that is it

Bad matchups: Top three; Bang, Litchi, and Ragna’s pokes, damage, and space control all give Noel a tough time

[Rachel]

Average damage D: Her bread and butter is between 2k and 2.4k; landing 5B to land 2.4k is difficult

Max damage C: With George now heavily prorating and Baden Baden Lily’s damage nerfed, Rachel has a hard time getting big damage; again, landing 5B to get maximum damage is hard

Pokes D: 5B has a good hit box but has poor range and recovery; 6B is slow and offers no return anymore

Breaking out of pressure D: 2C was buffed and is now faster, but it’s still very risky to do; her counter-assault is mediocre at best

Mix up C: With level 1 j.2C nerfed into oblivion, Rachel’s mix up is very limited and heavily dependent on George, pumpkin, and lightning poles; she can force a high/low mix up if the opponent is sitting on a pole, but they need to be in the corner for that to be effective

Pressure D: What pressure? Rachel has a very hard time keeping up pressure without pumpkin being out.

Okizeme C: A shell of its former self; getting okizeme from mid-screen is pretty much impossible, but okizeme in the corner setting up from 5CC loop can be decent (manages to get both George and pumpkin out in that situation)

Against ground D: j.A has an okay hit box, but any character with a strong anti-air will beat Rachel out; pumpkin is the only safe way to approach from the air

Against air C: 6A is nerfed but still a decent anti-air and j.C can be a situational anti-air; Lobelias can also make approach from the air difficult, but they don’t offer much return

Defense C: Average amount of life, low guard primers, large OTG hit box

In general situations B: Zoning with Lobelias can be strong, but they’re not without their holes and weaknesses; pumpkin is less of a threat and George requires wind and protection from Lobelias to be effectively used

Overall C: Rachel is a shell of her former self; obviously over nerfed; everything about her is average or below average

Good matchups: None. A good matchup for her is an even one. Isn’t it sad, hime-sama? ;_;

Bad matchups: Bang, Litchi, and Ragna are especially tough for her, and practically everyone else has a favorable match up against her

[Ragna]

Average damage A: Average damage increased since last game; many combos lead to 3.5k to 4k+, but require Ragna to be close enough to do them; at max range, Ragna’s damage isn’t that great

Max damage S: Fatal counter combos hurt, but most of the time Ragna’s max damage output cannot be reached without a fatal counter

Pokes S: 5B, 2B, 5C, j.C, and in some cases 2D and 2C are all great pokes; Ragna’s pokes are among the best in the game

Breaking out of pressure A: Inferno Divider is the staple here, but Blood Kain can have its uses as well

Mix up B+: It’s more of the same from CT, except Gauntlet Hades got faster; usually having meter to RC anything unsafe helps

Pressure A: Ragna has always been no slouch in pressuring people, and with 2C’s buff, it’s even better

Okizeme A: All combos leave him in a good position except double BE combos; he can end a BE combo with 3C, JC it, and force a high/low mix up that is difficult to see or get out of; Mada Owari Ja Ne Zo (22C) does less damage but has more untechable frames, allowing for even stronger okizeme

Against ground A: j.C is still really good, and j.D can sometimes be useful as well; Beliel Edge has a weird hit box too, but generally isn’t that useful

Against air S: His 6A is probably the best AA in the game now that it has a better hit box and leads to some strong combos; Inferno Divider, j.A, j.B, j.D, and sometimes Gauntlet Hades are all good too

Defense C/B: Below average life, tall standing hit box, and average guard primers; if Ragna is landing combos, his average life is about 11k to 12k

In general situations A: Ragna’s pokes allow him to play very patiently and without much risk involved (in most situations); he can be comfortable playing patiently before waiting to start his pressure and mix up

Overall S-: While not as strong as Litchi or Bang, Ragna’s small buffs and lack of nerfs have made him a very strong character overall; his only weaknesses are his below average life and inability to do good damage at max range

Good matchups: Rachel, Noel, Tsubaki, and Jin; all of these characters have problems with Ragna’s pokes and superior damage output

Bad matchups: Bang, but only slightly; Carl is arguably a slightly bad match up, but is more than likely even

[Tager]

Average damage B+: Tager’s usual combos do a respectable and consistent 3k to 3.5k, but they do require some set ups

Max damage S: 720 still hurts

Pokes D: 5C and 4D can be used as pokes, but they don’t offer much return and are slow/have too much recovery

Breaking out of pressure C: 360A and 720 can be used to get out of pressure, but it can be risky; backdash can be used as well but it can be punished

Mix up B: Typical grappler mix up, but Gadget Finger creates a good three way mix up and keeps them magnetized

Pressure C: Tager pressure doesn’t last long and does tend to have a lot of holes, but magnetism helps keep it going

Okizeme B: Ending combos with Gadget Finger creates a good three way mix up and prevents tech rolls

Against ground B: With j.2C buffed, Tager can bait AAs by hitting them during their recovery with j.2C; j.B is still decent

Against air C: Atomic Collider has head attribute invulnerability but it doesn’t last long and the move lacks a good hit box, 2C got buffed but isn’t reliable

Defense A+: Highest HP in the game by a good margin, and has ten guard primers; fails to get S rank because of his huge hit box

In general situations D: Unless they’re magnetized, Tager will need to work at safely getting in against a lot of characters; Spark Bolt does charge at a faster rate now, but it’s still unlikely you’ll get more than one per round

Overall B: Tager got a few buffs to help him out (Gadget Finger is awesome!), but he still runs into the usual grappler stigma of having no mobility; any character with good pokes or zoning ability gives him a hard time… which is a lot of the cast

Good matchups: Rachel; my how things have changed; Sledge is now a lot less risky to do against Rachel, and his high HP make him difficult for Rachel to end things quickly

Bad matchups: Most notable ones are Bang and Litchi, but pretty much any character with strong pokes and zoning give Tager a hard time

[Taokaka]

Average damage B+: Her ability to do damage greatly depends on being able to do taunt loop, but on average, Taokaka can do 3.5k or more easily

Max damage S: Tao can do close to 7k damage with the right set ups

Pokes B: 5C and j.C are the staples here, but the return is low

Breaking out of pressure B: Super works as a reversal and she has one of the best counter-assaults in the game

Mix up B: Taokaka’s mix up mainly consists of jumping around, occasionally crossing up, and forcing a mistake to land a hit

Pressure B: Taokaka’s pressure doesn’t last that long, per say, but she has the mobility and tools to reset it

Okizeme D: Practically nonexistent now that her air combos no longer knock down

Against ground C: j.C can be used but it doesn’t hit below her that much

Against air B: 6A is kind of weak but not completely useless, and j.C is good air to air

Defense D: Tied for lowest health in the game and only has four primers

In general situations B: Tao’s mobility gives her some flexibility in neutral situations, but her presence is more annoying than threatening

Overall B: Taokaka is pretty much more of the same compared to her CT counter part, except now taunt loop is dumb; she lost knockdown from her air combos, but the damage from taunt loop makes up for it

Good matchups: Rachel; our poor princess can’t do much to control Taokaka’s mobility

Bad matchups: None that are notable

[Tsubaki]

Average damage C: Without one charge stock, Tsubaki’s damage isn’t much better than Rachel’s; with one charge stock, she can get over 3k, which is standard for CS

Max damage A: With “Tsubaki Install” (forgive me, I don’t know the move name or motion for it), she can reach more than 4k, although it heavily depends on how much charge stock she has; using meter for combos otherwise doesn’t really yield that much more damage

Pokes C: 5B is a good poke, but that’s about it; her other normals have poor range

Breaking out of pressure C: She has a DP, but it’s not invulnerable all the way through it’s active frames, meaning it will trade (often unfavorably for you, since her DP doesn’t do much damage)

Mix up B: Charge cancel can be deceptive, and her throw game isn’t that bad; 22D unblockable is gimmicky but can work; overall not too bad or too good

Pressure B: Charge cancel can allow her to reset strings, but she cannot do it without risk; barrier blocking really hurts her too

Okizeme C: She can force oki in the corner, but her ability to get anything off of it seems weak

Against ground B: j.C is a strong jump in, but that’s all she really has

Against air B: 2C is a great, all purpose anti-air move, but she lacks any kind of air to air

Defense B: Above average life, average primers

In general situations C: Tsubaki is a pure rushdown character, which hurts because she needs to be far away in order to charge her drive meter; being on the offensive is where she wants to be at all times

Overall B: Despite her weaknesses, Tsubaki is a solid rush down character

Good matchups: Nothing notable

Bad matchups: Top three, Carl; characters that can easily zone her with good normals or tools can give her trouble

[Dacidbro]

Oh, I get it. That's actually pretty good.

I think you drastically undercut Ragna's damage tiers though, especially after the release of this. o: Pretty sure even at max range you get something something 2D 5C jump stuff berial.

[Spirit Juice]

I expect analysis like this thread only better.

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not going to get that much more detailed than those. For one, it would take a long time to do the ins and outs of everyone completely, and two, my knowledge isn't vast enough to get that detailed.

Whats the point of analyzing a character with no comparison?

Because it's important to know every character's strength and weaknesses? Essentially it is a comparison, because you're comparing one character's rank in a category to another character's.

Oh, I get it. That's actually pretty good.

I think you drastically undercut Ragna's damage tiers though, especially after the release of this. o: Pretty sure even at max range you get something something 2D 5C jump stuff berial.

Most of those combos in that combo video are just that... combos. A lot of them are impractical or pretty difficult to do. By max range, I usually mean max 5C range. 2D isn't that great a move and isn't used that often. The move is also heavily prorated and adds a lot of techable time to your combos. Even with a double BE combo ending with 22C, you'll only get 3.5k, which is about the same as a HF RC into 6C combo.

[Dacidbro]

My more recent post is more understanding :]

[-Ladon-]

Oh, I get it. That's actually pretty good.

I think you drastically undercut Ragna's damage tiers though, especially after the release of this. o: Pretty sure even at max range you get something something 2D 5C jump stuff berial.

realistically, ragna's average is better than CT but not litchi or bang level.

no, you really don't have a long range punish unless you rapid or carnage, and 2D is not safe or comboable unless they're crouching.

he nailed it pretty well, ragna's larger combos are from fatals, his realistic damage from non-fatal averages at 3-3.5k depending on range.

[Spirit Juice]

My more recent post is more understanding :]

Stop posting while I'm editinggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

[Dacidbro]

3.5k is huge O_o

Considering Ragna gets 3.5k as a LOW number, I think you VASTLY undercut his damage tiers.

Unless I misunderstood lol

[-Ladon-]

3.5k -on average- -from a close hit-

he isn't going to just be breaking out 3k when you're at range in the beginning of the match, and even rapiding only nets 3.5k from range

[Dacidbro]

Oh. :]

I do disagree though, as this Ragna displayed in this video hits 4k meterless from 2D, I'm going to guess there are other aspects of Ragna in the video that aren't understood to America.

[farranpoison]

Wow. Just... wow.

Nice work, SJ. Though it really hurts to see rachel's weaknesses analyzed like that, and I'm sure you were pained writing them as well. ;_;

But man, Bang and litchi are really good. Pretty much no weaknesses for both of them. At least Ragna's a wet rag when it comes to health.

[Spirit Juice]

3.5k is huge O_o

Considering Ragna gets 3.5k as a LOW number, I think you VASTLY undercut his damage tiers.

Unless I misunderstood lol

In terms of damage, think of it this way:

S - 5k or more

A - 4k or more

B - 3k to 3.5k (average CS BnB)

C - Less than 3k

D - Struggles to get 2k or above

For average damage, I also consider random hits, how much damage the character can get off of them, and what's the damage they can get out of a max range hit.

[zeth07]

I was going to comment on the Bang stuff but realized that it would be kind of pointless since it was your opinion and you yourself said it isn't going to be perfect. And even if I said anything it would just be nitpicking at your own opinion relative to my own, which while it may be discussion seems kinda pointless I guess.

But so my post isn't completely pointless, I will say good job taking the time to type all that out and giving some solid overall information for people to use to continue actual game discussion. So props for that.

In terms of damage, think of it this way:

S - 5k or more

A - 4k or more

B - 3k to 3.5k (average CS BnB)

C - Less than 3k

D - Struggles to get 2k or above

EDIT: Just for an example of what I would say, I think the disparity between Bang getting S for average damage and some other characters seems off. If Average Damage is supposed to be off BnB's Bang is more like B+, A-, A. S seems like an exaggeration, especially going by those standards you just posted.

[Spirit Juice]

I was going to comment on the Bang stuff but realized that it would be kind of pointless since it was your opinion and you yourself said it isn't going to be perfect. And even if I said anything it would just be nitpicking at your own opinion relative to my own, which while it may be discussion seems kinda pointless I guess.

But so my post isn't completely pointless, I will say good job taking the time to type all that out and giving some solid overall information for people to use to continue actual game discussion. So props for that.

Feel free to give some feedback, but just don't make it a wall of text (because I didn't use walls of text for anything in these lists). I can amend it later on, although I think I didn't underrate or overrate Bang that much.

Oh. :]

I do disagree though, as this Ragna displayed in this video hits 4k meterless from 2D, I'm going to guess there are other aspects of Ragna in the video that aren't understood to America.

Which combo are you specifically talking about? Tell me which section or sections in the video to look at and I can break it down for you.

[Dacidbro]

Ah. Then Bang's average is certainly A/B, dependant on meter. I would easily agree his max being S+, though.

[huey253]

oh and jin dies terribly to bang also, ragna's average damage is probably slightly higher than bangs too

EDIT: jin also has 5k corners combos that are very practicial with as little as 50 heat.

looks good though

[Spirit Juice]

EDIT: Just for an example of what I would say, I think the disparity between Bang getting S for average damage and some other characters seems off. If Average Damage is supposed to be off BnB's Bang is more like B+, A-, A. S seems like an exaggeration, especially going by those standards you just posted.

Comboability plays a factor too, like I said. The fact that he can get 3.5k off of almost any random hit gives him major points in that department. Originally I had it as A, but the more I thought about it, it was better to give him S (which also contributes to overall rank, making his S rank look more natural).

oh and jin dies terribly to bang also, ragna's average damage is probably slightly higher than bangs too

EDIT: jin also has 5k corners combos that are very practicial with as little as 50 heat.

looks good though

Overlooked Jin under Bang's favorable matchups. Thanks.

I wasn't sure about Jin's max damage. I don't see a lot of good Jin videos, and the freshest "max damage" combo I could remember from Jin was double ice arrow supers. What are these 5k combos?

[huey253]

5A, jA, jB 2A, 2B, 2C, 3C, any nail, any drive will prorate too hard or won't lead into 3.5k without meter,

if we are talking about counterhits, taking off 3C (slide kick) and jB, and that list is still valid.

EDIT:let me fish for some videos, and i think there might be some combos on the jin forums so i'll check

QUOTE:Courtesy of DL Member Ice Cube

Hirensou combo (or 6C>6D loop) (or Jin's corner loop):

(demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jIkLmiNr0U#t=4m41s (the dennou vs matsu match everyone is talking about))

(Note: AC means 5C hjc j.B j.C j.2C jc j.C j.2C)

Must be done in corner with 25%:

6C>6D xx 6B>623B xx 6C>6D xx 623D xx 6C>6D xx AC (DA = 5497, 5356 w/o 6B, 5229 w/o first 6C)

5C (CH or crouch) >6C>6D xx 6B>623B xx 6C>6D xx 623D xx 6C>6D xx AC (DA = 4773, 4665 w/o 6B)

623B xx 6C>6D xx 6C>6D xx 623D xx 6C>6D xx AC (DA = 3938)

5B>5C>623B xx 6C>6D xx 6C xx 623D xx 6C>6D xx AC (DA = 4091)

5D>dc>623B xx 6C>6D xx 623D xx 6C>6D xx AC (DA = 4503) (tight timing on 623B, add a 5C if you cannot do it) (5D can do damage on normal hit )

Double Hirensou combo (must be done in corner with 50%)

6C>6D xx 6B>623B xx 6C>6D xx (623D xx 6C>6D)x2 xx AC (DA = 6104, 6016 w/o 6B, 5903 w/o first 6C)

Triple Hirensou combo (lol)

(623D xx 6C>6D)x3 xx AC (DA = 5643)

(All combo tested and fully worked)

(Note: for 6B>623B, delay the 623B or air 236B will come out, and hold B for easier timing)

20 seconds in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P82LBP8YNg this combo isn't even listed here

[Dacidbro]

Here's what I'd say;

Rare occassions, you have to settle for 1k-1.5k off bizarre random air hits for oki

getting to 2.5k-3k off most hits is effortless

3k-3.5k off some random hits is effortless

3k-3.5k off of many random hits is doable, but not easy and requires some manner of risk or great read

4k+ isn't happening without meter or a very risky or slow starter

5k+ is easily possible with meter in certain circumstances; however, these circumstances aren't hard to set up (?!)

6k is easily possible with 100 meter, comes naturally through his mix up and pressure (?!?)

So bang's average damage, IMO, is A, A+, but his max damage is SS+, because it's so damn easy for him to hit HARD with meter.

[Spirit Juice]

Jin combos

I'm hesitant to amend Jin's max damage to S because starting a combo with 6C or 6D is pretty darn rare.

Here's what I'd say;

Rare occassions, you have to settle for 1k-1.5k off bizarre random air hits for oki

getting to 2.5k-3k off most hits is effortless

3k-3.5k off some random hits is effortless

3k-3.5k off of many random hits is doable, but not easy and requires some manner of risk or great read

4k+ isn't happening without meter or a very risky or slow starter

5k+ is easily possible with meter in certain circumstances; however, these circumstances aren't hard to set up (?!)

6k is easily possible with 100 meter, comes naturally through his mix up and pressure (?!?)

So bang's average damage, IMO, is A, A+, but his max damage is SS+, because it's so damn easy for him to hit HARD with meter.

Hmmm. I see. Thanks for the info. Sorry though, SS max damage is Arakune territory.

Also, you didn't answer my question about the Ragna 2D combo in MSY's combo video. :o

[Dacidbro]

Oh, sorry. It was like the second one he did, started on a 2D. o:

And realistically, you should bump Ara's to SSS, because he's literally the only character with realistic one shot combos that are viable in any match. Not to mention that Bang obviously deserves a SS for max damage, for having practical 5-6k.

[Spirit Juice]

The 2D combo he did not only used 100% meter, but it is also extremely difficult to do. Doing 22C, run up 5B 3C is something close to a 1 frame link (I believe 22C has 9 frames of untechable frames, and 5B start up is 8 frames, so...).

Not going to change the max damage ranks though.

[Dacidbro]

Yeah, I just mentally removed the extra RC 22C's, it was 3.5k-4k before them.

[qwerty]

hakumen's mixup game is certainly above C. i'd put it at B+; everything he has puts you in guardstun for a ridiculous amount of time.

and his breaking out of pressure is easily S. ib into yukikaze ruins everyone's day now that it catches lows. and if you lack the execution for that, just counter assault instead because that catches lows too.

[OrionXElite]

Wouldn't Tager's Max Damage be more in the S+ range? Assume 100 meter and he nails an FC, I believe he can pull off a combo in the range of 6.5-7k damage with oki if he uses MTW>Terra Break as the ender since he can Gadget after Terra Break.

EDIT: Also I know this wasn't part of the Defense category but shouldn't you take into account Tager's ability to beat out projectiles when talking about defense? If you did that, even given his lack of mobility, it would easily make him SS Defense. Thats the only reason matchups like Lambda and Litchi are even manageable is because you find that one hole and you can plow right through. Maybe taking Sledge and Spark into account would be better suited for the Getting Out of Pressure spot.