XDest Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 For Taokaka's oki are you taking into account sacrificing some damage for: (Taunt Loop xN 214D j.2D~C j.D~A Taunt 214D j.236Bx5) ? I'd say that would put her up in that regard a little. It seems to be working quite well for Kazu I think.
mAc Chaos Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 hakumen's mixup game is certainly above C. i'd put it at B+; everything he has puts you in guardstun for a ridiculous amount of time. and his breaking out of pressure is easily S. ib into yukikaze ruins everyone's day now that it catches lows. and if you lack the execution for that, just counter assault instead because that catches lows too. His CA is good now?
SimpleKiss Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 His CA is good now? Hakumen's CA in CS is amazing, it makes Arakune cry.
mAc Chaos Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Hakumen's CA in CS is amazing, it makes Arakune cry. Oh God I hope they don't nerf him into oblivion before I have a chance to play him.
ShinsoBEAM Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Hakumen's CA in CS is amazing, it makes Arakune cry. I am for anything that makes arakune's cry.
smooshman Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 I'm hesitant to amend Jin's max damage to S because starting a combo with 6C or 6D is pretty darn rare. it doesn't have to start with 6C, just has to have 6C, the common way to do it is [something]>623B>6C>loop. Though I agree that his damage should stay as is, because it's situational, in that it has to be corner with heat, (and that it might be character specific)
Leo7 Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 snip You don't need FC to do 6K. I do believe raw 2C xx Collider > Collider whiff (magnetized) > MTW + Break + follow up combo does like 6k+. Also Sledge and Spark are more offensive tools than defensive IMO, and you're not exactly going to use them to get you out of close range pressure. Also huge hitbox = fuzzy guard bait.
Dacidbro Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Wouldn't Tager's Max Damage be more in the S+ range? Assume 100 meter and he nails an FC, I believe he can pull off a combo in the range of 6.5-7k damage with oki if he uses MTW>Terra Break as the ender since he can Gadget after Terra Break. EDIT: Also I know this wasn't part of the Defense category but shouldn't you take into account Tager's ability to beat out projectiles when talking about defense? If you did that, even given his lack of mobility, it would easily make him SS Defense. Thats the only reason matchups like Lambda and Litchi are even manageable is because you find that one hole and you can plow right through. Maybe taking Sledge and Spark into account would be better suited for the Getting Out of Pressure spot. Most things yes, bolded no and a half The reason Tager loses matches and in bottom tier is because he gets overrun and zoned out SO bad.
Antihippy Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Tager vs lambda matchup is manageable? Seriously?
SimpleKiss Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 I am for anything that makes arakune's cry. "OH hai, I haz bugz nao." "IC. *block block Block* COUNTER ASSAULT!* See my sig.
ShinsoBEAM Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Tager vs lambda matchup is manageable? Seriously? I find lambda alot easier to get in on than CT nu, heck if lambda didn't have that fucking reversal, that can goof us up once we get on top of you. I might even say the matchup would be even.
A.X.I.S. Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 hey SJ can you move that post into its own thread and lock it so it won't get lost in the mountains of post that will come.
Spirit Juice Posted March 30, 2010 Author Posted March 30, 2010 Yeah, I'm not sure if I should make my "character breakdown" have its own thread. I'm still thinking about that, although worldjem said he'd link the two posts in the beginning of his thread.
Jourdal Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Thanks for the a lot for the breakdown SJ..i think that deserves its own stickied thread and should be one of the first things people read when they come here.
Zoogstin Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 It shouldn't be stickied because too many people will take it to heart.
Dacidbro Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 It shouldn't be stickied because too many people will take it to heart. QFT It's good, but very far from flawless. To sticky it and make it independent is to make Spirit Juice the God of the tier list.
Spirit Juice Posted March 30, 2010 Author Posted March 30, 2010 Yeah, unless the JP community gets together and does something similar (doubt they ever will), it'd be kind of silly to sticky it.
Jourdal Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 I mean like you said it's not a 100% accurate but it gives a rather good general idea wouldn't you say? or perhaps continue to fine tune and then sticky? idk just a suggestion lol. It's good, but very far from flawless. To sticky it and make it independent is to make Spirit Juice the God of the tier list. Lol true
Skye Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 He's pretty spot on with Arakune so..... Yeah, nice work.
Sophisticat Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Excellent! I was wondering recently whether a similar breakdown to the GG one would ever be applied and Lo and Behold! SJ lives up to the hype! I used to love reading that stuff when I started out on GG back in spring of '08. I'm going to love doing it here. Awesome stuff!
CrimsonDisaster Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Oh, sorry. It was like the second one he did, started on a 2D. o: And realistically, you should bump Ara's to SSS, because he's literally the only character with realistic one shot combos that are viable in any match. Not to mention that Bang obviously deserves a SS for max damage, for having practical 5-6k. A practical 5-6k combo with meter/fatal/whatever doesn't make Bang that far ahead of everybody else. There's a big chunk of the cast that does that (Litchi, Carl, Ragna, Hakumen, Taokaka, etc.)- why would Bang's max damage rating be higher than those characters for doing the same as those people? Also Hakumen has viable 100% combos. You won't see them as often as Arakune's since Arakune is always one airthrow away from cursing you into 100% whereas Hakumen has to be sitting on full bar, but it happens. As for Ragna, I've been hit with blah blah 22C dash 5B > 3C xx 22C ender pretty often lately, it's harder than generic enders but not impossible. 2D is a decent move with bar as well, gives him a nearly half screen low option in pressure that leads to pretty good damage on RC or CH (not BEST DAMAGE EVER but it's beefy enough considering how far away he can hit you with it). Pretty much Ragna with bar = mixup/damage/pressure into sick oki from huge range, Ragna without bar = mixup/damage/pressure into sick oki but only from close range or with big risks. I dunno why "can't do much damage at MAX RANGE" is a weakness for Ragna given that the entire rest of the cast can't do any damage at that range without bar or a counter-hit if they even have a move that reaches as far as Ragna's pokes. Pretty sure "can actually hurt you, even a little, from like half the screen away and get a knockdown that pushes you into the corner AND steals life, with the option to RC it into like 30% of your life" is more accurate. Or "can't do much damage at MAX RANGE but his max range is like double everybody else's max range except Litchi who is a stripper whore." Also Jin lands 6C/6D combo starter as a frame trap or anti-jump-out in pressure. 6D also breaks primer so it's not like people can just sit there and block all day. Yeah people can mash or DP out, but that's why he has 6B or FC 2C to beat up people who mash on things that are too fast to beat up by only doing 6C/6D as his frame trap normals.
Dacidbro Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 A practical 5-6k combo with meter/fatal/whatever doesn't make Bang that far ahead of everybody else. There's a big chunk of the cast that does that (Litchi, Carl, Ragna, Hakumen, Taokaka, etc.)- why would Bang's max damage rating be higher than those characters for doing the same as those people? Litchi's overall damage is crazy, so is Ragna's. Hakumen's max damage is really potent, but rarely applicable, so much less dangerous. Tao's damage is really really good too. Also Hakumen has viable 100% combos. You won't see them as often as Arakune's since Arakune is always one airthrow away from cursing you into 100% whereas Hakumen has to be sitting on full bar, but it happens. I guess it depends on what you mean by viable, because to me 100% meter isn't viable when you spend your meter on every single combo. As for Ragna, I've been hit with blah blah 22C dash 5B > 3C xx 22C ender pretty often lately, it's harder than generic enders but not impossible. 2D is a decent move with bar as well, gives him a nearly half screen low option in pressure that leads to pretty good damage on RC or CH (not BEST DAMAGE EVER but it's beefy enough considering how far away he can hit you with it). Pretty much Ragna with bar = mixup/damage/pressure into sick oki from huge range, Ragna without bar = mixup/damage/pressure into sick oki but only from close range or with big risks. Sounds about right I dunno why "can't do much damage at MAX RANGE" is a weakness for Ragna given that the entire rest of the cast can't do any damage at that range without bar or a counter-hit if they even have a move that reaches as far as Ragna's pokes. Pretty sure "can actually hurt you, even a little, from like half the screen away and get a knockdown that pushes you into the corner AND steals life, with the option to RC it into like 30% of your life" is more accurate. Or "can't do much damage at MAX RANGE but his max range is like double everybody else's max range except Litchi who is a stripper whore." Sounds about right Also Jin lands 6C/6D combo starter as a frame trap or anti-jump-out in pressure. 6D also breaks primer so it's not like people can just sit there and block all day. Yeah people can mash or DP out, but that's why he has 6B or FC 2C to beat up people who mash on things that are too fast to beat up by only doing 6C/6D as his frame trap normals. 6D is PRETTY EASY to interrupt on reaction, barring phenomenal spacing on certain characters (looking at you, Rachel)
-Ladon- Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 snip 2D's recovery is still terrible, and easily punishable by a majority of the cast, using 50% meter just to make it safe on a single poke is a waste HF-follow up is not ideal for a large amount of the cast when you're trying to get -in- on them, not push them farther back, getting a 2k punish on a long poke is good, putting them in a spot where they're at an advantage is not. Most characters(bang/litchi/jin to name a few) don't have a zoning problem post combos, whereas ragna without meter is forced to put them back in a position where he can only gain 2k from. but I digress, ragna would be the best character if every poke ever lead to the crazyness that is 22c oki, but you have to remember he isn't getting meter or good oki from range unless HF actually forces them into the corner and you're close enough to followup. not to mention he still has no way to punish a roll out of the corner other than predicting it, losing any kind of oki very easily.
smooshman Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 I dunno why "can't do much damage at MAX RANGE" is a weakness for Ragna given that the entire rest of the cast can't do any damage at that range without bar or a counter-hit if they even have a move that reaches as far as Ragna's pokes. Pretty sure "can actually hurt you, even a little, from like half the screen away and get a knockdown that pushes you into the corner AND steals life, with the option to RC it into like 30% of your life" is more accurate. Or "can't do much damage at MAX RANGE but his max range is like double everybody else's max range except Litchi who is a stripper whore." actually alot of characters have some damage options at max range, Jin has ice sword gimmicks and 2D (possibly), carl has his puppet, Hakumen has his reach, Lambda.... well yeah, Arakune... yeah, Rachael has lobelia stuff, even Tager has magnetism, Tao has projectiles (lol) and is really fast, Hazama essentially is this, and those that don't generally don't need to. Ragna needs 50 heat to safely cover down the half the screen offensively, and his life steal is a basically a side affect, no one really considers it in a combo, unless it's blood kain in which case he's probably going to get and equal return as he lost during blood kain.
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