[CS1] Mu-12 vs Tager

[Heroic_Legacy]

So we got the hulking 10 primer behemoth Tager against our little Venom chick. Hmm...let's break this down.

Sledge beats: Lasers, Explosions, 6C.

Sledge loses to: Everything else.

It's actually a semi-bad matchup for Mu depending on if you can manage to keep your distance. You want to keep your distance but then you realize you can't do too much to hurt Tager from fullscreen since he can just block or sledge. Hell, charge works too to avoid the blue laser and explosions. So he isn't easy to guard break.

You can try to zone him but you can't really keep at it too long. Get too zoning dependant and Tager ends up in your face regardless because your zoning can't really hurt him. Poking with 5C is really good to keep him out of your face. 5C to 63214C is great at keeping him midscreen. If he superjumps just gatling 6A to 2C and jump cancel get out of there.

Do not use 6C unless it is already in a combo. Otherwise Tager can just sledge or Bolt right through for counterhit combo.

Spark bolt itself, is scary against you. Zoning must stop since you have recovery on D moves. 5D jump cancel block is alright but a fast draw Tager can catch you with it anyway.

Go for 2C combos whenever possible and do j.c j.2C enders and set only one stein. Once Tager wakes up, if he reversal sledges just j.2C for the sweet counterhit.

Main thing to do is bait sledge and counter it. If Tager isn't sledging, play the hakumen game and space him out with 5C and j.C. Occasional 63214C.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Aginor

[Synthesis]

I personally feel this is a great matchup for Mu. Just zone with steins but do it intelligently, and use 214D to burst them in his face. It beats sledge since it hits 3 times. I mean, you can even 6D 214D zone him all day if you wanted.

[ZhePrime]

I personally feel this is a great matchup for Mu. Just zone with steins but do it intelligently, and use 214D to burst them in his face. It beats sledge since it hits 3 times. I mean, you can even 6D 214D zone him all day if you wanted.

Sledge isn't affected by hits, but by the amount of damage. Sledge absorbs a certain amount damage before it fails (can't recall the exact number, but it isn't above 3000). His Voltic Charge absorbs about 8000 dmg (if I recall correctly) and his 6A can absorb an infinite amount of damage.

Some other Tager player can probably fill in with the correct numbers.

[Aginor]

Name Input Cancel Damage P1 P2 Guard Level Attribute Startup Active Recovery Frame Adv. Counter Hit Untechable

6A SJR 800 100 89 All 3 HB 21 7 29 -19 41 17

17-30 has projectile guard point, has draw-in effect

A Sledge 236A R 980 70 80 All 3 HB 19 3 21 -2 35 36

1-22F projectile guard point, standing hit has hit stun of 29F, ground guard has guard recovery of 21F, 65% same move prorate, 22-31F can add follow-up

B Sledge 236B R 1100 70 70 All 4 HB 35 6 15 +3 51 40

1-41F projectile guard point, ground hit has stagger of 31F, ground guard has guard recovery of 23F, 55% same move prorate, 41-48F can enter follow-up

Voltec Charge 421B - - - - - - - - - total 39-113F - during move -

high mid guard point till 6-16F or 1F after button release, 22F adds 63 to gauge, each additional charge frame adds 4 to gauge, gauge increase 7F after button release

Above info. taken from tager's frame data.

None of those moves absorb a certain amount of damage. They're all based on the amount of frames it can guard point a projectile move. Time your 6c so if he tries to sledge through lasers, you will get a fatal counter on tager when he is recovering from sledge.

Otherwise, Mu's advantage. Mu has mobility and zoning options.

As for exploding steins to punish sledge, I don't think it'll work because he'll probably just guard point the whole thing. Not worth it imo.

[ZhePrime]

None of those moves absorb a certain amount of damage. They're all based on the amount of frames it can guard point a projectile move. Time your 6c so if he tries to sledge through lasers, you will get a fatal counter on tager when he is recovering from sledge.

I know for a fact that Tager's Sledge move can't absorb an infinite amount of damage in CT and I recall MikeZ mentioning the stuff about the damage.

It was not based on hits either since that would prohibit you from Sledging through certain overdrives and moves (which it didn't).

So unless they changed it in CS (i.e. allowing all 3 of those moves to absorb an infinite amount of dmg) then it should be the same as in CT.

It's not something major, but it could be handy to keep it in mind. A little experimentation in training should solve any questionmarks.

[Synthesis]

Well, 214D stays out for A LONG ASS TIME and will punish sledge easily. You can then dash in and do whatever you like because the hitstun of 214D lasts a while as well. one thing to be wary of, though, is popping the steins BEFORE he sledges. Popping them before he sledges is a great way for you to waste your steins and allow him to get in, but if you pop them on reaction (you can cancel stein placement with popping), he'll get hit and you'll get a counter.

[Halcyone3]

Though i'm sure aginor is right in that its just guard point and not damage absortion. Both of them ammount to the same "projectiles dont do shit to him during those moves", no use discussing which implementation was used ><

[ZhePrime]

Though i'm sure aginor is right in that its just guard point and not damage absortion. Both of them ammount to the same "projectiles dont do shit to him during those moves", no use discussing which implementation was used ><

Thing is in CT you could cause enough damage to abort the Sledge and damage Tager instead, if it's the same in CS then it could be beneficial for Mu.

[AndyG]

Just checked in training. Neither four 214Ds going off on top of him nor 632146D with optimal gun placement (all 4 right on the other side of him from you) break him out of sledge. It's possible to hit him after he comes out of it, but you will almost definitely get hit too. I played a lot of games against a good Tager last night and right now I've had the most luck beating sledge with good prediction. You can pretty much throw up guns and use 6C to zone him out, there's no way you should be letting him jump in, he should have to sledge, and 5B is really good at CHing him out of B sledge and you can go into any BnB from there.

[Synthesis]

I never said it would hit him out of sledge. It just punishes him if you time the explosions on reaction to him sledging, since when he comes out the explosions will still hit him. He shouldn't be able to get ALL THE WAY TO YOU with one sledge, so I don't see how you're getting hit. You should be on the other side of the stage.

[AndyG]

Thing is in CT you could cause enough damage to abort the Sledge and damage Tager instead, if it's the same in CS then it could be beneficial for Mu.

I was referring to that post, and the others to which that post referred. I didn't direct anything to you.

Timing explosions absolutely works, but the trade isn't worth it when he is in range, which he will be in eventually. Tager won't just be sledging at places where there are cannons set up when you're all the way across the screen anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

[Synthesis]

in which case, you can keep up 5D 6D j.D 2D turret pressure as long as there is a turret in his face. And since that setup keeps 3 turrets on the ground in a row (kind of) he can't really sledge anywhere near that without eating a 214D. Although he has a ton of guard primers, if you keep doing guard primer turrets, you'll eventually guard crush him, get a life lead, and can potentially outzone him for as long as you want.

Also keep in mind that Mu's pressure and rush down is really good since she can jump cancel steins and special cancel steins (I don't know if this works, but reacting to sledge if he's close with 623C or 63214C or 632146C if it isn't counted as a projectile). Because she can jump cancel steins, she can mixup between a placing a stein and running away with an IAD backwards, or by something like 5D(JC) j.2C (stein goes off) continue pressure. It makes j.2C safe and it resets her strings, so even if he gets in, you can still pressure.

EDIT: Also, with the 5D 6D j.D 2D, you can also cancel that j.2D with 236A for an arcing projectile as a sort of deterrent for him to try to approach while he eats steins.

Dat Ass will fuck with him all day.

[Aginor]

in which case, you can keep up 5D 6D j.D 2D turret pressure as long as there is a turret in his face. And since that setup keeps 3 turrets on the ground in a row (kind of) he can't really sledge anywhere near that without eating a 214D. Although he has a ton of guard primers, if you keep doing guard primer turrets, you'll eventually guard crush him, get a life lead, and can potentially outzone him for as long as you want.

Also keep in mind that Mu's pressure and rush down is really good since she can jump cancel steins and special cancel steins (I don't know if this works, but reacting to sledge if he's close with 623C or 63214C or 632146C if it isn't counted as a projectile). Because she can jump cancel steins, she can mixup between a placing a stein and running away with an IAD backwards, or by something like 5D(JC) j.2C (stein goes off) continue pressure. It makes j.2C safe and it resets her strings, so even if he gets in, you can still pressure.

EDIT: Also, with the 5D 6D j.D 2D, you can also cancel that j.2D with 236A for an arcing projectile as a sort of deterrent for him to try to approach while he eats steins.

Dat Ass will fuck with him all day.

Ok uhh...first off 5d 6d j.d j.2d is like asking for a spark bolt to the face. He can close distance fairly quick with sj.c. Yes he can sledge if he knows you're summoning all of them. He'll just sledge and hit you while you're summoning them.

Mu doesn't jump cancel steins.........ugh....it's just there isn't much recovery on steins so you can jump shortly after the stein is summoned. Oh yea if you try to jump after a stein is summoned and you're magnetized, you eat an atomic collider. Have fun with that.

Before I forget, while you summon steins, he might as well charge up spark bolt and use it. But yea like, to be safe only summon one at a time. Don't try anything stupid magnetized because once you get hit, you'll start to take a ton of damage.

[Synthesis]

I'm going to have to try backdashing after a stein, then. It seems that wouldn't be a bad idea if the lag is very short.

Also, who in their right mind would spam anything when Tager has a spark bolt charged up? At that point just play patient and place steins very leniently, but make sure you don't let up your mine field.

Charging spark bolt is a great idea against Mu, but Mu's range is pretty good, so a short dash 5C is enough to put a stop to that. She'll likely land a counter hit and will get a 6C 6D 63214C combo from it. If he blocks, great! Just make sure he doesn't IB the 5C, then 6C 5D IAD away. If he instant blocks, 5D watch for sledge 623C if he sledges and IAD back if he doesn't.

As for him sledging if he knows you're summoning all of them, that's what mix up is. Be unpredictable with your timing and mix up with a dashing 5C to keep him from sledging as well. Her physical attacks have great range and on counter hit or on crouch leads to 6C stein 63214C combos to push him away. If he techs the combo, punish with 214D to force him to block if he's near a stein and pressure until he's away from you again.

Mu is a transformation character. She switches from zoning to rushdown depending on the situation. You just need to know when is the right time to do it.

I don't think this matchup is any better than 5.5 - 4.5 for Mu, but it is by no means a bad matchup. I mean, why was the matchup for Tager against Nu was bad? Because Tager could sledge, but Nu could seriously just wait for it and punish and Tager had a hard time to get in. Mu has the same thing.

[Aginor]

Lol the problem is you're saying it's so easy and all you have to do is just spam lasers and explode. Keep in mind exploding steins has quite a bit of start up. You can be hit out of it and the steins won't explode.

Next, you don't punish voltec charge with 5c unless you don't mind your 5c doing nothing. It guard points mid and high attacks so you would do a sweep.

Why would you want to punish something you see coming with 5c 6c 6d 63214c. You can just 6c him for free and time it when he's in recovery then you get a free 5k combo.

And what if he isn't near a stein? Problem is tagers who know what they are doing won't just sledge every single thing. They will walk towards you and keep blocking until they have you cornered. Once you're cornered, that's when they start doing bad things to you.

And Nu/Lambda has a much easier time against Tager than Mu. Mu does not have lambda's 5d to instantly punish something stupid. Lambda can wear down Tager's magnetism so easily that it's braindead, Mu doesn't have that option. But yea.....

[Synthesis]

Is that a change from CT? Because I remember Rachel's 6B counter hitting him out of it all day. And it's not easy. A good Tager can get in, of course, but a Mu can keep him out just as easily. It's just not a bad matchup. xD

EDIT: and what is it that you can see coming that you'd punish with 6C?

[Aginor]

I don't think it's a change. Rachel probably 6b CH'd tager because he was in recovery of voltec charge. I was never saying it was a bad match up.

Use 6c to punish whiffed magna tech wheel, whiffed 2c, and you can space yourself to have it beat sledge and have it hit tager when he's recovering from it.

[Heroic_Legacy]

Volt Charge through your lasers kinda wrecks your keepaway game.. And stein setting has recovery, so the next time you do it because you want more lasers, you'll eat a spark bolt.

And B sledge isn't the only sledge. A sledge works just as well.

If Sledging wasn't related to damage, I could sledge Miami. But I can't. So if you can do a certain amount of damage to him you can knock him out of it. Same thing as you having to sledgeRCsledge through Baden Baden Lily. The first sledge doesn't hit, it's to eat the damage then the second one counters.

Anyway, 3C and 5C are your best normals in this fight. And this fight sucks. Tager will get in, and your DP isn't going to save you. Tager baits DP and then you die. If Tager gets hit by DP, he takes 1k damage. Whoopee. He's coming back at you.

Synthesis is right in saying you have to bait sledge and punish. Because that's all you can do in this matchup. Your moves are slow and unsafe, everything is 720able. Hell, if Tager blocks j.2C/6B it's a free 360B.

Exploding stein are bad. Say you explode them, but you get countered with B sledge for it. And they explode. Tager air techs and continues the combo. Exploding steins are worthless.

And yeah, Volt Charge has no damage threshold. Just the 8 frames of CH after charge. Also, you can't reduce his primers while he charges. Lasers do nothing.

and you can space yourself to have it beat sledge and have it hit tager when he's recovering from it.

Why the hell is Tager sledging from 2/3rds screen?

[Aginor]

Maybe to close the gap towards you.

Oh great A sledge, he has more recovery, free damage for me. I love how you act like Tager gets in for free and everything is hopeless. Who said you had to DP? Who ever said I had to explode steins when he's standing. I can just explode steins for oki. Oh wait tager can just wake up sledge when the steins are exploding right?

Volt Charge just sweep.

Oh and Heroic maybe you should learn this thing called rushdown. and also maybe uhh...yomi. If you're saying tager has the advantage then you haven't played a good Mu or you don't know how to play Mu and you get raped by Tager. This match is 5-5 at worst for Mu.

[Synthesis]

Why the hell is Tager sledging from 2/3rds screen?

Why the hell would I place a stein when he has a spark bolt? xD

[Big Red Tie]

yeah, this matchup is definitely 5-5 or better for mu

i don't see how tager can prevent you from zoning him out all game, eventually mixing him up or getting a guard crush

liberal use of 5C and j.C keeps him out and allows stein setup

[DC]

Aginor, 5d IS jump cancellable and special cancellable. Do 5d and try to backdash or do a normal. Jump and specials negate it's recovery.

[MisoSowee]

Recently I learned (lol) that almost all of her normals gatling to each other and special cancel on block. A surprising amount also jump cancel. Once you can get a good grasp of blockstrings and getting away the matchup becomes a LOT more reasonable. (for me at least)

Stein backdash/forward dash in the air is pretty strong here too for me. Just don't run into an atomic collider :[

[Aginor]

Yea I was wrong. It is jump cancellable. But you still eat shit if you're magnetized and jump cancel after setting up a stein because of atomic collider. =p

And well...keep in mind mu's moves are slow so you have to be selective about which ones you use.

[Big Red Tie]

you generally shouldn't be magnetized unless you blocked a spark bolt

in which case jump steins are unnecessary