Arizona "Arcsys Release Dates Give Us Erectile Dysfunction", Thread

[Synthesis]

I can't play you guys. D= Your risk v. reward assessments make no sense to me, so I can't read into the situation. Example:

Yukiko Oki: 236[A] ]A[ watch. The risk of you getting hit is getting placed right back into the corner with the exam same setup. The reward of doing F-Action gets me off you, but at the cost of blue life. And to be honest, I shouldn't be rushing in. I understand getting me off you is a huge reward, but consider how safe I am with that 236A held there. I can safely (risk-free, even) set it off and pressure, and thus the chances of a successful F-Action (coupled with my AoA) is extremely low. Knowing this, it is only logical to assume you'll try any kind of reversal attempt after the fire hits you as you wake up, which greatly increases your chances of getting out of the corner.

I need to prepare for every possible attempt my opponent can make. It makes it exceedingly difficult to play people who can't be read because of suboptimal plays, but I guess that's a form of mixup and although the play is suboptimal, if it works it was worth it.

I apologize for my rant. xD I've always had a problem with this exact thing, but Kanji has made it exceedingly apparent that I need to overcome expectations in order to win more often.

[Ryd']

A set Agi does not make you safe until you have conditioned your opponent to respect it, Ted. That I see Kanji in that post makes me think you were doing things you shouldn't have been doing. Also, (this is mostly in reference to Tempered/H-F) don't expect anyone who's played MBAA with me for any length of time to respect a set Agi if they can do something about it, because they learned from F-Akiha that bad things happen if you get complacent under that kind of pressure

[Synthesis]

A set Agi does not make you safe until you have conditioned your opponent to respect it' date=' Ted. That I see Kanji in that post makes me think you were doing things you shouldn't have been doing. Also, (this is mostly in reference to Tempered/H-F) don't expect anyone who's played MBAA with me for any length of time to respect a set Agi if they can do something about it, because they learned from F-Akiha that [b']bad things happen if you get complacent under that kind of pressure

You're right, and I'm not used to people blindly disrespecting after so many punishes. And it does make me safe, if I choose not to attempt to attack with it simultaneously. What I think I'll be doing is forcing the meaty with the fire and then just watching and attempt to pressure safely at a specific spacing. It's why I switched to Yukiko over Elizabeth: Elizabeth can't force blocking on wakeup and I have to commit to things that have AWFUL recoveries if I want to oki, and due to lack of respect of any account, I prefer the Yukiko setup. What I think bothers me the most is that these suboptimal options that I have to look out for actually limits my own options, making me feel like I'm playing a suboptimal game. But I've got to learn to deal with these situations, and punish accordingly.

And remember how I've mentioned multiple times that MBAA angers me? It's because the guard bar forces you to respond to long blockstrings. I loved MBAC because sitting there and blocking was my FAVORITE thing to do. =D

[Hateraid Red]

random kanji's are the scariest kanji's

- they're also the least likely to win anything close to a major

[Rei-Inari]

I kinda find Kanji to be a scary grappler in general.

[Zeromus_X]

Liz requires a lot of conditioning, but she gets an insane meterless reward for hitting people. On the other hand, Yukiko practically forces people to block, but even when I get hit by her, I just think "lol she still has to hit me like five more times to win".

I should pick up Yukiko soon. She's like if Mu and Tsubaki combined to make the Hottest Girl in School. I want to be the hipster Yukiko that actually uses Fire Boost.

EDIT: lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJC30uV5hYg&feature=youtu.be&t=2m50s

Edited October 3, 2012 by Zeromus_X

[LegendaryRath]

I find most grapplers to be scary in general. They always have amazing potential, regardless of what the tier lists say. It makes me feel good about them making grapplers bottom tier to start out like they did with Tager in CT or kanji in Persona. Think how broken it would be to have a top tier grappler.

GGs Synthesis. It was a lot of fun

[Rei-Inari]

I would say Waldstien from UNI, but in that game everyone is really good. Carmine somewhat being the one exception because of the way he works. I kinda wish my internet didn't suck so I could play with you guys.

[Synthesis]

Liz requires a lot of conditioning, but she gets an insane meterless reward for hitting people. On the other hand, Yukiko practically forces people to block, but even when I get hit by her, I just think "lol she still has to hit me like five more times to win".

I should pick up Yukiko soon. She's like if Mu and Tsubaki combined to make the Hottest Girl in School. I want to be the hipster Yukiko that actually uses Fire Boost.

EDIT: lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJC30uV5hYg&feature=youtu.be&t=2m50s

Thing is, conditioning foes with Liz is almost non-existent in certain situations. Why would you ever just sit still on her oki? Her options lose for every 2/3 options they use: I'm at a disadvantage on oki.

5A/2A: Loses to F-Action, certain pokes, Supers. Beats jumping, other pokes.

5D: Loses to jump, F-Action, Poke, Super. Beats roll/blocking.

5C: Loses to jump, F-Action, roll. Beats pokes.

5B: Loses to rolls, F-action (certain characters), super. Beats jumping.

2C: Loses to supers, blocking (outside of the corner), Jumping. Beats Rolls

IABD j.B: Loses to jumping, anti-airs, Certain supers. Beats rolling/F-Action.

j.D: Beats jumping. Loses to everything else, essentially.

Zio: loses to any super/projectile invulnerable move that reaches her. Leaves me negative on block. Is punishable fullscreen by many characters on block. Beats poking (who pokes at that range) and jumps.

Agi: C/D agi startup is laughable; super jump out of it. SB.Agi loses to certain moves (SB.TV, Naoto F-Action, Kanji chair super etc...) Beats random pokes and stuff. Seriously, just block it. It's only +17.

Without oki, I'm forced to zone and play footsies, where my normals are awful, and although I have Zio/Agi, they are so punishable it's almost not worth using. j.B is almost my only zoning tool that can't be punished for free.

EDIT: GGs Rath. I'll learn how to force respect eventually. D= But until then, enjoy the free wins.

EDIT EDIT: Normals are awful outside of 2B and j.B. Although they count as projectiles, so any projectile invulnerable move will beat my normals outside of Thanatos or A moves.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Synthesis

[Theupstreamer]

I don't think a grappler will ever be top tier because the word "grappler" implies a character that's only effective close up, when a character that you would think is top tier is effective everywhere. And if there was a grappler that was effective everywhere, then I don't think it would be considered a grappler anymore.

[Hateraid Red]

just play mitsuru. she has great everything. then there's no excuse to lose except for making the wrong call

oh, there was that potemkin guy too ...he was awesome... still got zoned though

[Theupstreamer]

I think there are better characters than mitsuru. Like shit, aigis is bananas.

[Ryd']

Liz requires a lot of conditioning, but she gets an insane meterless reward for hitting people. On the other hand, Yukiko practically forces people to block, but even when I get hit by her, I just think "lol she still has to hit me like five more times to win".

I should pick up Yukiko soon. She's like if Mu and Tsubaki combined to make the Hottest Girl in School. I want to be the hipster Yukiko that actually uses Fire Boost.

A lot of Yukikos will use Fire Boost depending on the matchup. If it's one where you're playing the spacing game all day, there's no reason not to, and it makes the round end a lot faster when you land a good hit. If it's someone with no health, there's no point since they're dead in 2-3 good combos anyway. If it's someone you need to keep pinned down, then you probably won't have time.

Yukiko's damage really isn't bad. The one caveat to her better combos is that the opponent needs to be in the air for her to get "real" damage; if she has 25 meter and is catching you mid-jump with fans, 5C, or you're getting tagged by Maragi (or CH fans when grounded), and you're not losing 1/3+ of your health, then she's doing something wrong. Her obscene damage (5-6k+ @lv 0) should never be seen since it comes off FC 5D, which is blatantly obvious. Her damage is deceptively lower than average because she (like SLabrys) relies on resets; the main difference being, Yukiko's resets come in the form of straight up unblockable attacks, and not mixup off insane oki setups.

Ted, Liz is a high-risk/moderate~very high reward character. You make the right read, you're getting ridiculous damage; if you mess up, you're going to get lit up. You can't give solid mixup and oki setups to a character that can get crazy high damage off a variety of hits and can instantly control a horizontal plane. That character is all about making the right reads for huge payoff. Yukiko is actually somewhat similar in principle, but with a smaller risk:reward ratio in exchange for a little more safety and control.

Ray, tell that to Chie. Pixies aren't supposed to be effective at full screen, but that doesn't stop her.

Edit: Pot really only lost hardcore to Testament's zoning HS Beast. The only things really keeping him out of S in AC were the residents of S: Eddie (get knocked down once and die) and Testament HS Beast (shit stuffed everything!) Other characters attempts to zone him would give him a zoning game of his own, and there was always Slidehead to worry about. There weren't any other zoners who had a "gtfo" option that was anywhere near as good as HS Beast.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Ryd'

[Theupstreamer]

Carlos I don't know where you're going with that. I think you're bolstering my point about good characters being able to do something everywhere.

[LegendaryRath]

I don't think it's impossible for a grappler to be top tier. They wont need to be effective everywhere, they just need exceptional options to help get in. Imagine how broken a charge attack to get close would be if it had projectile armor. Sounds like tager actually, not that he's broken or anything.

[Zeromus_X]

I think there are better characters than mitsuru. Like shit, aigis is bananas.

Dude I know right. Mitsuru actually has to work a bit to open people up once they learn to block her shit. Chie is annoying but has to work really hard at neutral. But Aigis doesn't give a fuck, that bitch is just playing Arcana Heart.

[Theupstreamer]

Imagine how broken a charge attack to get close would be if it had projectile armor.

Isn't Tager just proof that it isn't actually that great?

I guess you're right about the first sentence. I mean if there was a tager with 14 noel's, he'd probably be top tier (Idk if that matchup has changed since ct). So it seems to all be relative. Tiers are based off of matchups right?

EDIT: And omg who wants to talk about yosuke. I can't wait to give up this game when I get demolished by one.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Theupstreamer

[Synthesis]

Ted, Liz is a high-risk/moderate~very high reward character. You make the right read, you're getting ridiculous damage; if you mess up, you're going to get lit up. You can't give solid mixup and oki setups to a character that can get crazy high damage off a variety of hits and can instantly control a horizontal plane. That character is all about making the right reads for huge payoff. Yukiko is actually somewhat similar in principle, but with a smaller risk:reward ratio in exchange for a little more safety and control.

This is the EXACT reason I can't play her against people currently. If I can't read the opponent because their risk v. reward assessments make no sense to me, I'll never land hits and I'll never do anything. This is the exact reason I picked up Mitsuru and Yukiko. =D

[Ryd']

Carlos I don't know where you're going with that. I think you're bolstering my point about good characters being able to do something everywhere.

You said the term "grappler" implies a character a character that is only good close up. The same could be said of pixie-type characters; they have to work their way in to do anything, but they decided to give Chie a full screen "sit the fuck down and take my foot up your ass" move. Considering they gave her that kind of shit (seriously, why would anyone do that for that kind of character?), it apparently isn't impossible for a grappler to have something similar.

Chie is annoying but has to work really hard at neutral until she hits awakening.

Fixed that for you.

[Zeromus_X]

EDIT: And omg who wants to talk about yosuke. I can't wait to give up this game when I get demolished by one.

Yosuke is really disrespectful, but I still think he struggles a bit at neutral and can't really keep an advantageous position. He's definitely a good character though imo.

[Synthesis]

You said the term "grappler" implies a character a character that is only good close up. The same could be said of pixie-type characters; they have to work their way in to do anything' date=' but they decided to give Chie a full screen "sit the fuck down and take my foot up your ass" move. Considering they gave her that kind of shit (seriously, why would anyone do that for that kind of character?), it apparently isn't impossible for a grappler to have something similar.[/quote']

And Kanji has it. Air dives get him in, albeit with a ton more risk than Agneyastra.

[Valthazeryus]

I don't think it's impossible for a grappler to be top tier.

snip

Imagine how broken a charge attack to get close would be if it had projectile armor

Potemkin.

EDIT: Tamaki

Sounds like tager actually, not that he's broken or anything.

Let me show you some dildos one day.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Valthazeryus

[Theupstreamer]

You said the term "grappler" implies a character a character that is only good close up. The same could be said of pixie-type characters; they have to work their way in to do anything, but they decided to give Chie a full screen "sit the fuck down and take my foot up your ass" move. Considering they gave her that kind of shit (seriously, why would anyone do that for that kind of character?), it apparently isn't impossible for a grappler to have something similar.

Fixed that for you.

Are you saying chie is a grappler based on my phrasing?

Grappler -> Someone who is good close up.

which is different than.

Someone who is good close up -> grappler.

EDIT: Idk erik, I think having his amazing movement options really help his neutral game, you know? Although his combos do leave the opponent at rather unorthodox situations, it has proved to be rather effective in the past like for taokaka. And that character is silly.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Theupstreamer

[Ryd']

Ted, don't you dare ever compare Kanji's dive to Chie's "sit your ass down and take this" option. Those two moves are nowhere close to being in the same league. Also, if you're going to try to play Mitsuru and Yukiko, just play Mitsuru. Less effort for a lot more reward.

Are you saying chie is a grappler based on my phrasing?

Grappler -> Someone who is good close up.

which is different than.

Someone who is good close up -> grappler.

Grappler -> someone who is good close up.

Pixie -> someone who is good close up.

Both types of characters are supposed to be scary as fuck if they can get in your face, but they're supposed to have to work for that huge payoff. Chie breaks the standard conventions of the archetype because she has an "imminent rape" option, which no pixie should ever have. Imagine if Jam had a super that covered huge segments of the screen and kept you in blockstun long enough for her to casually walk up and start running her train on you. If someone thinks it's okay for that kind of character to have an almost guaranteed ticket in, there really is no reason for a grappler to not have one.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Ryd'

[Synthesis]

Ted' date=' don't you [i']dare ever compare Kanji's dive to Chie's "sit your ass down and take this" option. Those two moves are nowhere close to being in the same league. Also, if you're going to try to play Mitsuru and Yukiko, just play Mitsuru. Less effort for a lot more reward.

Right? But when have I ever been about working with less effort? And sorry about the comparison. Dive is much worse than Agneyastra, but the concept is the same: they're both used to get in, although Agneyastra is amazing and dive is mediocre.