BlazBlue CS: Tier list

[Henaki]

S Litchi Bang > Hazama

A Arakune Carl > Hakumen Ragna Tao

B Jin Lambda > Noel

C Tager > Tsubaki Rachel

based on japanese tier list, jBBS/wiki (via LK), alzarath, myself.

[farranpoison]

Hold on a sec.

Jin is the same as Lambda? Since when?

[mundus]

How is Hazama S-tier when the only character he bodies is Tager? Every other character is even or slightly in favor/disfavor for Hazama , if you are skilled you will do good with him since every matchup is very much winnable, but S-tier characters usually get a lot more for free.

Also Arakune feels really strong to me, yes he has bad matchups, but he still bodies like 80% of the cast when played right. Might not be S-tier, but for me he is the most scary character after Bang and Litchi.

[XAQshinor]

its fucking spreading!

[Black Onslaught]

Is this tier list your own Henaki, or does it have a source?

[Zidane]

What the.. what the fuck? Why did misinformation need a new thread to spread too? Was one not enough? Could it not contain all the wrong?

Henaki's tier list is either the one posted 2-3 weeks ago modified with his opinion or a new one.

@mundus: Hazama has no bad matchups. At all. When a character has only good matchups and no bad matchups, how can they not be top tier? The reason tier lists put Hazama above Arakune is because Arakune STILL has bad matchups, no matter how many 10K combos he can do. Anyone can body 80% of any cast when played right ( KA2 practically OCVed his way to win SBO 2-3 years ago, losing one match with fucking mid tier Jam ) so what the hell.

[mundus]

What the.. what the fuck? Why did misinformation need a new thread to spread too? Was one not enough? Could it not contain all the wrong?

Henaki's tier list is either the one posted 2-3 weeks ago modified with his opinion or a new one.

@mundus: Hazama has no bad matchups. At all. When a character has only good matchups and no bad matchups, how can they not be top tier? The reason tier lists put Hazama above Arakune is because Arakune STILL has bad matchups, no matter how many 10K combos he can do. Anyone can body 80% of any cast when played right ( KA2 practically OCVed his way to win SBO 2-3 years ago, losing one match with fucking mid tier Jam ) so what the hell.

First of all Hazama vs Hakumen is imo pretty bad for Hazama, but anyway a character with the whole roaster of even or close to even mathcups are usually A-tier like Jin in CT.

[Zidane]

Oh so you play Hakumen v. Hazama matchup? Which one do you play as? Can you tell me why it's bad?

[dragontamer]

Meh seems close enough based on the level of discussion on this forum. We really need to update the matchup chart though. So much tier list talk without specific matchup information? It is insane to put much faith in a tier list without considering the play-by-play details that matter.

After all, the utility of a tier list is in the discussion it generates. It is a decent way to formalize theory-BlazBlue and for an exchange of ideas to be put forth. Claiming X character is better than Y character does nothing except stroke your ego for picking the best character... or stroke your ego for doing so well with a character who is considered bad.

[Henaki]

What the.. what the fuck? Why did misinformation need a new thread to spread too? Was one not enough? Could it not contain all the wrong?

Henaki's tier list is either the one posted 2-3 weeks ago modified with his opinion or a new one.

@mundus: Hazama has no bad matchups. At all. When a character has only good matchups and no bad matchups, how can they not be top tier? The reason tier lists put Hazama above Arakune is because Arakune STILL has bad matchups, no matter how many 10K combos he can do. Anyone can body 80% of any cast when played right ( KA2 practically OCVed his way to win SBO 2-3 years ago, losing one match with fucking mid tier Jam ) so what the hell.

its modified with input from LK/alzarath. basically any character at the edge can go up or down depending on what edge they are depending on your opinion. IE s- hazama can be a+ but it barely matters. the only people i genuinly think might need moving are either tao or tsubaki. everything else is pretty cemented based on numerous opinions from people i asked.

tao is apparently better in japan according to LK, but i haven't really seen/heard the justification for it (not that i disagree, i know little about tao). i know so little about tsubaki that i'm just willing to take whatever top player's word for it.

[Zidane]

I wasn't saying your tier list was misinformation, I was saying mundus was spreading more dumb stuff. My bad for not clarifying.

[Black Onslaught]

I swore Hazama was at a disadv. versus Haku, although considering how fierce you're going can you give me your thoughts on that Zidane?

[Henaki]

I wasn't saying your tier list was misinformation, I was saying mundus was spreading more dumb stuff. My bad for not clarifying.

no i know, i'm just clarifying more upon the tier list.

[qwerty]

hakumen-hazama is even or close to it

but hazama is a better character overall

[Zidane]

Imagine a character has all the tools he needs to win. Now imagine he can run wild on most the cast in that fighting game. But one character can stop him from running wild. That doesn't mean it's a bad matchup, just that he can't do what he usually does so easily.

Hakumen can slash chains and his pokes are as good as Hazama's. That just means that Hazama can't chain in for free or come in with superior pokes since they're both even in that department. I don't see why Hazama is at a disadvantage just because he has to think more/play smarter/play more cautious against Hakumen then other people. Litchi can't stop chains but she has other tools / deterrents that make the matchup 5-5.

[Black Onslaught]

good shit, thanks qwerty, zidane.

[smooshman]

Imagine a character has all the tools he needs to win. Now imagine he can run wild on most the cast in that fighting game. But one character can stop him from running wild. That doesn't mean it's a bad matchup, just that he can't do what he usually does so easily.

Hakumen can slash chains and his pokes are as good as Hazama's. That just means that Hazama can't chain in for free or come in with superior pokes since they're both even in that department. I don't see why Hazama is at a disadvantage just because he has to think more/play smarter/play more cautious against Hakumen then other people. Litchi can't stop chains but she has other tools / deterrents that make the matchup 5-5.

Haku's a bad matchup for hazama. sword>chains, yeah he can get around the problem, but Haku just has to react to it. It's disadvantage because it's haku's match to lose, unlike alot of other characters where it's hazama's match to lose.

EDIT: not to say it's terrible, it's probably 5.5-4.5 hakumen's favor, and it's Hazama's only bad matchup. for every 1 step haku takes hazama has to take 2, so Hazama's working a lot harder, and so naturally is at disadvantage, but of course if the hazama is better or has good strategy/playstyle then.... yeah.

[FlyingVe]

I'm pretty sure that matchup info, the one where it's a 6-4 disadvantage for Hazama, is from along time ago, back when Hazama was B tier (lol). His gameplay has evolved a lot since then so saying the matchup is even isn't really that far-fetched.

Also, It seem like al Henkai did was eliminate the S- tier by moving Hakumen and Hazama around a bit. The character rankings are still pretty accurate though.

[Jourdal]

Haku's a bad matchup for hazama. sword>chains, yeah he can get around the problem, but Haku just has to react to it. It's disadvantage because it's haku's match to lose, unlike alot of other characters where it's hazama's match to lose.

EDIT: not to say it's terrible, it's probably 5.5-4.5 hakumen's favor, and it's Hazama's only bad matchup. for every 1 step haku takes hazama has to take 2, so Hazama's working a lot harder, and so naturally is at disadvantage, but of course if the hazama is better or has good strategy/playstyle then.... yeah.

Why are you arguing with a Hazama main, especially when you use neither of these characters, and if so not at a high enough level where your opinion holds any merit?

/theory fightin

[Justice7541]

What the.. what the fuck? Why did misinformation need a new thread to spread too? Was one not enough? Could it not contain all the wrong?

Henaki's tier list is either the one posted 2-3 weeks ago modified with his opinion or a new one.

@mundus: Hazama has no bad matchups. At all. When a character has only good matchups and no bad matchups, how can they not be top tier? The reason tier lists put Hazama above Arakune is because Arakune STILL has bad matchups, no matter how many 10K combos he can do. Anyone can body 80% of any cast when played right ( KA2 practically OCVed his way to win SBO 2-3 years ago, losing one match with fucking mid tier Jam ) so what the hell.

That's what I said about Jin back in CT and people threw a bitch fit. The problem is that Hazama doesn't really have any significant advantage over any of the cast other than Tager, which means he basically has CT Jin matchups.

I'm fine with saying that Jin was top in CT, though, so it's not like I really disagree either.

[XDest]

its modified with input from LK/alzarath. basically any character at the edge can go up or down depending on what edge they are depending on your opinion. IE s- hazama can be a+ but it barely matters. the only people i genuinly think might need moving are either tao or tsubaki. everything else is pretty cemented based on numerous opinions from people i asked.

tao is apparently better in japan according to LK, but i haven't really seen/heard the justification for it (not that i disagree, i know little about tao). i know so little about tsubaki that i'm just willing to take whatever top player's word for it.

She gets 4k off any random CH, 4.6k off grabs, 5k off crawling and CH air-to-air drive (which confirmed proper), 6.8k off 6C, and +2k when she has 50 heat (proration doesn't matter, involves min. damage). That's the kind of consistent BnB damage very few characters in the game actually have (except for Ragna/Litchi). And the fact that her drives have way less recovery than CT, and she lost almost all of her bad CT matchups. All she really lost was her oki, which you can get back by sacrificing damage or doing a hexa-edge at the end of a taunt loop. She didn't even have amazing oki in the first place, just average. Fly around well with triple jumps/double dashes/drive cancels -> Punish opponents mistakes via whiff punish/CH -> Big damage, if you have the execution. Her up close game is pretty average, her counter assault is probably the best in the game, and she has a reversal super.

The only real bad matchups she has are the ones where she can't get in, because of big hitboxes on certain moves. It forces her to play a different way. Even then, those matchups are just 4.5/5.5. And that's just Ragna/Litchi really, because they can match her damage, they have oki, and they have moves with big hitboxes to somewhat subdue her movement. The Bang matchup all depends on if Bang can get in and stay in, but it's not that easy, it's probably an even matchup.

[Aftermath1349]

Dammit, I liked my mid tier Ara lol.

[farranpoison]

Someone tell me why Lambda is apparently in the same tier as Jin now.

And people who don't main characters should stop trying to argue with the people who do main the characters. :8/:

[Yuai367]

is makoto not allowed on the tier list or something?

[felipebwk]

litch and bang are ok as "S" tier, but hazama as "S-", lol...

i realy think that:

( S- )Arakune > ragna (A+ / A) >= ( A ) Carl, ( A ) Hakumen >= ( A/B ) Hazama, Tao (B) >= ( B / C+ ) lambda > others...others like ice car gay freak and poor Rachel, she deserve more than this, much more than "ice car gay freak"....