[CS1] Ragna vs Jin

[Blade]

Would Ragna and Jin's moves be done at the same time? If so then this chart isn't very useful at all since we can just look at the frame data and see which moves have faster startups than others.

Well, in my experiences fighting Jin players, they tend to break up my tempo with "single pokes" and then do another poke that leads into combos. It really messes with my head. This is also true for throw-reject-miss baits I've dealt with. As for which moves have faster startups, you can't really compare them in a large sense if a move has already started.

If for example Jin has a move with 10 frame startup, and it took you 3-4 frames to realize it was coming out and react to it, it'd be on frame 5-6 that you'd actually be reacting, I think, and depending on what you use, the move may not make it in time. How else would you react aside from preemptive prediction? I tend to have a hard time reacting to Jin's 5A or 5C for example, short of blocking them, and blocking isn't something you always want to do, even if it is an IB.

I'm not arguing the possibility, I just need a better way to react short of raw agression since that can be punished by Jin and take you apart.

[CakeWasBannedd]

Well, in my experiences fighting Jin players, they tend to break up my tempo with "single pokes" and then do another poke that leads into combos. It really messes with my head. This is also true for throw-reject-miss baits I've dealt with. As for which moves have faster startups, you can't really compare them in a large sense if a move has already started.

If for example Jin has a move with 10 frame startup, and it took you 3-4 frames to realize it was coming out and react to it, it'd be on frame 5-6 that you'd actually be reacting, I think, and depending on what you use, the move may not make it in time. How else would you react aside from preemptive prediction? I tend to have a hard time reacting to Jin's 5A or 5C for example, short of blocking them, and blocking isn't something you always want to do, even if it is an IB.

I'm not arguing the possibility, I just need a better way to react short of raw agression since that can be punished by Jin and take you apart.

why are you trying to beat out every single one of jins moves? why not just block?

[KayEff]

If for example Jin has a move with 10 frame startup, and it took you 3-4 frames to realize it was coming out and react to it, yada yada yada

I would intrude, but I'll just let this one go.

Instead I'll let people figure this one out.

[xlolxlolx]

why are you trying to beat out every single one of jins moves? why not just block?

cuz blocking is ADVANCED TACTICS to Blade

[Blade]

why are you trying to beat out every single one of jins moves? why not just block?

Cuz most of the time I've played Jins, when I block they either poke with a single normal over and over till they get a square hit (j.B spam), or if their up close, they go for tick-throw and throw-reject-miss bait. If they don't do that, they go for mixup, 5A spam, or 2A spam, or j.A stuff.

At the very least I'd like to know what stuff good Jin's throw out and how I can beat them or what openings there are.

[Final Ultima]

Then Barrier Guard. Push him out so that he has to dash and put himself at risk if he wants to try again. If he does, put a 5B in his face, then you can start getting aggressive.

[xlolxlolx]

ok since blade doesn't seem to understand that ragna's 5B and 6A destroys jin's approach ill break it down.

5B beats every poke jin has except for 2D and j.C, jin's 5B startup is 1 frame faster but it has shitty reach so you're safe

6A beats all his air attacks as soon as you see an air dash get ready to 6A only move that'll beat 6A would be j.C from a distance

jin's tick throw starters: falling j.A, 2A, 5B(2), 6B

if all else fails, you still have ID.

oh and jin shouldn't be using 5A because it's terrible

[Famhuss]

Hey I'm having quite a lot of trouble against this Jin so I hope to learn something here.

How do I frigging approach a Jin from a long distance, every time I try the following happens:

1. Airdashing with j.c gets stuffed by his 623a or with meter 623d which gives him a oppertunity to be agressive.

2. Running up 5b or 5c always gets ends up with me eating a CH by his 5c and then being carried to corner for massive rape(5k combo with heat, wtf???)

3. 3c under my running 5b or even when hells fanging at him...

4. Running and then brake with barrier to bait DP or other crap earns me a throw and another massive damage if near corner.

5. Running into his aerial fireballs(the D one namely) sucks not to mention them jumping over a 5b and punishing with j.b

6. Sometimes he backdash spams for lulz to bait a move and punish it, like he knows till where my move will reach...

7. Running ID seemed to work at first but after a while he just blocked and punished.

Meter for RC helps with a number of situations above but if I'm not sitting on any it makes life hard.

Also I got the tip to ID on wake up and to ID through his block strings, after which of Jin's moves can you ID in a block string, heard some don't even need a IB to DP through.

You won't believe how in corner his 6c>6d kept raping my primers... or even guard crush after i already bursted and he did a 6c>6d>6c>6d>236d.

Is it just me or is this guy always sitting on 25 meter to rape me...?

Even as some ppl above have described jin vs rags should be in favor of rags but he's still pretty hard to me.

Thank you to anyone who has some info and pardon my lack of knowledge if you read something stupid in this post.

[Famhuss]

I tried a few things out and Dead Spike seems to help greatly at range, in particular to keep jin from doing wake up DPs.

Helps a lot in the corner.

[advancedNoob]

Jin vs Ragna is pretty fair, with some advantage towards Ragna.

You need to understand Jin's strings better:

6C can only be cancelled into 6B, 6D, DP or DD.

6B and 6D are easily punished by 2a starter combos, DP and DD present a minor risk but if in doubt mash ID, unless he has 50 heat he will eat it. Do 2nd DP on clash.

Jin's air game is far superior to Ragna's, hence I think it's best to fight him on the ground, at least in most cases.

These are just several things that I can think of at the moment.

[T.Kang]

You need to learn your spacing. Ragna's 5B beats out Jin's 5C clean, Jin has hitbox on his cape on startup, you have plenty of time to outpoke him. Seems to me that your blockstrings are not rock-solid. Seems to me that you're impatient and probably extremely obvious with your approaches. You don't need to: run up -> 5B every single time. Mix it up: run up 2/3 of the distance you would for 5B -> AirDash > crossup j.B, etc etc. Seems to me that your Jin opponent plays like me, he must be overusing 5C to beat incoming run-ups and relies on DPs as anti-airs even when 2C would work.

You must know that you outpoke Jin on all grounds, don't be scare of him. I hate y'all, Ragnas >_>. Also, double jumping is your friend. You can approach by running, jumping, keeping barrier guard on, ultimately blocking that DP, then doing dj.C. That causes a lot of trouble to us, Jins. Our only ground move that has lots of vertical range is 2C, which is very slow and can be seen miles aways (DP C is a no brainer, nobody would dare using it in such tight circumstances.) Bait his DPs with far airdashes that allow you to barrierguard by the time you enter his DP hitboxes. If close enough, even DP A can be punished.

Also, learn to anti-air with 6A, it will benefit you in the long-run (and short-run too in fact!). Jin's j.B/j.2C totally get owned by Ragna's 6A. Jin's j.B spam does not exist, it's too easy to beat out.

1. Practice your spacing.

2. Learn rock solid blockstrings and mix it up.

3. Add more variety to your approach, being unsafe can be safer than playing safe when your opponent knows your narrow gameplan. Bait DPs like they're cookies.

4. Use 6A to beat our aerial approaches, just watch out for air iceblade. They're pretty easy to look out for, so don't react early to his ADs.

Edited January 14, 2011 by T.Kang

[Famhuss]

Ah thank you very much for the info guys, I still have one last question: what should I do if I get crossed up by j.b?

For the moment I just keep blocking but it would be nice if I could take the offensive, oh and sometimes he does it in such a way my 6a whiffs his approach and he gets a j.b.

I'm still scared to airial approach this guy since a other Jin I played just j.c ed my face everytime i tried to. But still I guess the true solution is to mix up a lot.

[T.Kang]

Ah thank you very much for the info guys, I still have one last question: what should I do if I get crossed up by j.b?

For the moment I just keep blocking but it would be nice if I could take the offensive, oh and sometimes he does it in such a way my 6a whiffs his approach and he gets a j.b.

I'm still scared to airial approach this guy since a other Jin I played just j.c ed my face everytime i tried to. But still I guess the true solution is to mix up a lot.

Whiffed or blocked j.B crossup? I'm pretty sure that you get the momentum at the very least, as it has a bit of landing recovery. You should be patient when using 6A, it's very safe even when the opponent is up close (upperbody invincibility is gdlk). j.C seems godly until you actually learn its hitbox, it's not big at all just sort of long. Your aerial approaches aren't only airdash dependant, learn to run -> super jump / double jump, you'd be surprised by how effective that can be.

I've got a question for you, can you perform IADs?

[Famhuss]

Well it´s my only form of aerial approach to be honest :P

I tried what you typed and being aggresive is very hard imo, it seems just he always knows what i'm gonna do.

Be it airdash, running or what ever, for some reason he never does anything when I suddenly barrier in his face...

The few wins I have come from letting him come to me, burst in the corner and just make no defensive mistakes while keep chipping off little bits of his health since I'm never in range for a combo in which 5D will hit 2 times.(how do ppl do this shit?)

I'm sure a good Ragna would be very dissapointed in me now lol XD.

I meant that he is able to use j.b in such a way that 6a doesn't hit.

That and I can't really do a reliable DP on wake up while he can soooo....

I have been eating a lot of 632146D(Arrows of ice, absolute zero) too today, he can do it on reaction ragna's yelling when attacking!(you know Ragna always yells when he attacks.)

[MashThat5A]

The thing is, a good Jin won't throw out a random DP because it's so easily punishable. I might be misinterpreting your post, but it sounds like you are just approaching and Barrier Guarding in his face everytime. The key is to mix it up a little. Start off with approaching and attacking and when he starts to DP, start baiting it.

Are you letting him get you in the corner? Because that's a HUGE mistake against Jin. You want to keep him mid-screen where his pressure is terrible.

Sounds to me like you need to work on your hit confirming a little. If you're at a certain distance for 5B 5C, you need to do Hell's Fang, no exceptions.

Wake up DP is not that good unless you have meter to burn (waste) because once you do it the first time it gets super predictable. If he does wake up DPs, especially the C version, bait it hard! If he whiffs/ gets blocked he eats a huge punish for the small reward of landing it (2K on CH?). Running up and then blocking is a surprisingly good way to bait it against bad Jins that do it too much.

Don't know how to help you for the jB problem, never seen that before.

What moves are you using that make you eat Arrows of Ice? That sounds like a problem with you being predictable in your block strings/mix-up game.

Edited January 16, 2011 by MashThat5A

[Famhuss]

The arrows of ice is jin´s invincible distortion, screws me over every time I try to stick meaty attacks, and yeah I think my biggest problem is mixing it up and autopiloting things that work. A small change throws me off. He only does his 623a DP on wakeup or his 623d DP. And yeah you are right I run up his face with a barrier on a lot XD.

[Troll Badguy]

Tried this out in training mode dunno if it was posted here yet, if you IB A DP B DP (lol C DP is not even worth mentioning) and D DP (depending on the gap between the second hit, you can fatal 2C into really good damage.

[Blade]

Welp, I'm getting 5B'd out of most of my normals now, and 3C'd whenever I land from a jump. It seems like I can't even do safe rushdown anymore.

[Famhuss]

Could you elaborate on the 5B situations? Is he being predictable with it or does it catch you by surprise? If he 5B's when you try to approach him try going for a max range 5C. If it's at point blank range try a 2a. If he does it when you jump in at him try barrier jumping or a well spaced j.c(not sure on this one since the jins i fight like to do 5c a lot).

The easiest way would be to just throw out ID untill he starts to try and bait/block it/starts doing something else, thats when you can do something unexpected like rush in.

As for the 3c, would it help to block low if you know he will do that after you land? Jin's overhead isn't that hard to react to, but I'm not sure if his 3c can be jump canceled.

I hope this helps :P