[CT-CS2] Carl Clover Loke Test

[Mascarpone]

if it has heavy block stun you could j.a into Brio, which would go into Wall Bind combos if you're near a corner. That might be pretty sexy.

[soujiro seta]

Here's something from usidon's last update on the list. After the last loketest, it seems that it's going to enter in to the adjustment stage.

☆JC＞JBのガトリング削除

☆JC＞J2Cのガトリング削除

-JC>JB gattling lost

-JC>J2C gattling lost

# Also there's some explanation on how the wall bound(i.e. edge of the screen bound) works, with detailed diagrams... (笑´∀｀)

o_O? Why are they attacking his gatlings? I know they want to lower his damage, but taking away his gatlings removes his resets/setups. j.C j.2C doesn't bother me, it's j.C j.B. The loop only worked on 8 characters, and it wasn't used for damage, but to set up resets. I'd rather they nerf his damage to hell, albeit not too low, than take away gatlings which in turn nerf his reset potential. I guess I just love that loop too much cause of the amount of resets you can get off it.

8Dの手部分にボーナス乗算がついた

I was going in General Nantoka's blog and stumbled upon this.

8D has bonus proration?

2 primers and bonus proration? Wow, Interesting.

[ZONG_one]

:D

I'm still looking forward to seeing what they come up with for him.

I had an idea before...

But now I don't. I want to seeeee. D:

[GenoWhirl]

j.C knocking down may be the reason it lost it's gatlings?

[ZONG_one]

j.C knocking down may be the reason it lost it's gatlings?

Indeed.

If it knocked down only on air opponents, I think the gatlings would stay, but that's not the case iirc.

People are complaining..

But we have NEW tools as well. Who knows how good/bad they'll be until we try them.

3D oki is still super fucking hype.

[ansem]

Is J.C knocking down a good thing:?:

[soujiro seta]

Is J.C knocking down a good thing:?:

It depends

The reset 5B 2B 5C 3D j.B j.C, for instance, might be gone (If j.C kds on airborne opponents only and forces crouching on standing then it would still work). The 6B j.B j.C j.B loop is gone. If j.C causes kd on standing then 5B 5C late 6D j.2C j.B j.C wouldn't work (It would still work if it only cause crouching on standing). It was done as an attempt to try and reduce his damage, but in turn he lost some of his reset potential.

The only good thing I see coming from j.C kd is j.C kd into 3D, but there are other things you can do to give yourself the 3D pickup anyway. Such as 2C 8D 3D, or after a 2D loop 3D, etc. So I wouldn't really call this a positive so to speak, but more along the lines of "another way to end your combo with a kd into 3D".

It will make way for new combos obviously (possibly even new resets), but it's not his combos I'm personally worried about. I just don't want his reset potential to get lower. Lol, now I'm not saying "OMG he's ruined I'm switching". I loved and abused that 6B j.B j.C loop soooo much so when I heard it was gone it was like receiving a phone call from a police office saying that my wife was in a fatal accident, and they're sorry, lol.

Even with all these changes, carl, imo, still looks strong. I wouldn't be surprised if he got more nerfs in the final version lol. Arc is trying to make the theme of CS2 be "Low damage midscreen, but high in the corner". The thing is there is no such thing as low damage midscreen but high in the corner for carl. Carl's damage depends on his starter and what combo he does after the starter. It doesn't matter where he is on the screen.

Funny thing is since 3C is techable, he needs nirvana with him at all times to get any sort of worthwhile combo in the corner. Since cantabile usually whiffs in the corner when you're too close you can't cantabile 22D like you can midscreen. So he's actually better midscreen than in the corner. Lol, opposite of what arc wants.

I like how they've put more emphasis on nirvana though. I hate how, in the current system, she gets poked out of everything so easily. It became so brainded in many matches. They just safely poked at her for free because carl can't do anything about it. I really hope the changes: fuoco always coming out, anima SA, 8D positive proration/removing 2 primers, brio needing barrier in air, volante multi-hit against projectiles, 3D pickup, and air ch 6D wall bounce all stay. These will solve a lot of the "I'll camp right next to her cause" and "lol 5a will stop her if you try anything" that our opponents like so much.

I have a question. Are these considered projectiles

Litchi's staff, Ragna's Dead Spike, Noel's X marks the spot gun thing she fires (lol sorry don't know the name), hazama's chain, and Mu's steins

They all eat volante for free right now, so I'm trying to see if even with the multi-hit against projectiles they'll still be able to eat it for free or not. I'm pretty sure litchi's staff, and hazama's chain still would. Steins would probably cancel it out easily as well too. Not sure on ragna, and noel.

Edited December 3, 2010 by soujiro seta

[Adelheid]

Yes, those are all projectiles, yes.

[JG]

It depends

The reset 5B 2B 5C 3D j.B j.C, for instance, might be gone (If j.C kds on airborne opponents only and forces crouching on standing then it would still work). The 6B j.B j.C j.B loop is gone. If j.C causes kd on standing then 5B 5C late 6D j.2C j.B j.C wouldn't work (It would still work if it only cause crouching on standing). It was done as an attempt to try and reduce his damage, but in turn he lost some of his reset potential.

The only good thing I see coming from j.C kd is j.C kd into 3D, but there are other things you can do to give yourself the 3D pickup anyway. Such as 2C 8D 3D, or after a 2D loop 3D, etc. So I wouldn't really call this a positive so to speak, but more along the lines of "another way to end your combo with a kd into 3D".

It will make way for new combos obviously (possibly even new resets), but it's not his combos I'm personally worried about. I just don't want his reset potential to get lower. Lol, now I'm not saying "OMG he's ruined I'm switching". I loved and abused that 6B j.B j.C loop soooo much so when I heard it was gone it was like receiving a phone call from a police office saying that my wife was in a fatal accident, and they're sorry, lol.

Finally someone who understand me. Hell I like Carl how work in Cs, that way I don’t want to lose his reset and combo potential because weird changes like j.C knock down and j.B, j.C not being able to gattlig after a j2.C.

I think that is a BIG nerf loosing the Jump loop and stuff like, J.2C, J.B, J.C, 5A,2A, 5B, 6B, 2]D[ Unblockeable.

I don’t care too much losing some of the big combos, because im pretty sure that we are going to still be able to perform Combos that deal 5K, and that is ideal after a reset or unblockeable.

I know that the new 3]D[ pickup sound awesome, im really hype for that change, but that also mean that now we are more Nirvana depent than before.

Speaking with the truth, if one manages to connect 2 reset and then going for a big combo…. How many Nirvana gauge left you will have to try the 3]D[ pickup? Also, how many times you will be able to the 3]D[ pickcup until Nirvana runs out of life?, and the most important thing, with 3]D[ can you do good dmg? Especially now that you can´t do jump loop or j2.C, J.B, j,C, land, etc?

Like you I don’t want to his reset potential to be lowered en CS2. I don’t think that he is ruined, but maybe he will not be as good like in CS.

Even with all these changes, carl, imo, still looks strong. I wouldn't be surprised if he got more nerfs in the final version lol. Arc is trying to make the theme of CS2 be "Low damage midscreen, but high in the corner". The thing is there is no such thing as low damage midscreen but high in the corner for carl. Carl's damage depends on his starter and what combo he does after the starter. It doesn't matter where he is on the screen.

Funny thing is since 3C is techable, he needs nirvana with him at all times to get any sort of worthwhile combo in the corner. Since cantabile usually whiffs in the corner when you're too close you can't cantabile 22D like you can midscreen. So he's actually better midscreen than in the corner. Lol, opposite of what arc wants.

I like how they've put more emphasis on nirvana though. I hate how, in the current system, she gets poked out of everything so easily. It became so brainded in many matches. They just safely poked at her for free because carl can't do anything about it. I really hope the changes: fuoco always coming out, anima SA, 8D positive proration/removing 2 primers, brio needing barrier in air, volante multi-hit against projectiles, 3D pickup, and air ch 6D wall bounce all stay. These will solve a lot of the "I'll camp right next to her cause" and "lol 5a will stop her if you try anything" that our opponents like so much.

I have a question. Are these considered projectiles

Litchi's staff, Ragna's Dead Spike, Noel's X marks the spot gun thing she fires (lol sorry don't know the name), hazama's chain, and Mu's steins

They all eat volante for free right now, so I'm trying to see if even with the multi-hit against projectiles they'll still be able to eat it for free or not. I'm pretty sure litchi's staff, and hazama's chain still would. Steins would probably cancel it out easily as well too. Not sure on ragna, and noel.

3C is still teachable? Or just in counter is not teachable? Sad about the 3C change, it’s just dumb.

I also like how they put more emphasis on Nirvana, like Eddie on GGAC in comparison to GGReload.

It’s true that in the current system they can easily poke Nirvana, but if you think that more deeply at least Nirvana regenerate fast and also you can try to defend Nirvana, IAD j.B is scary XD.

But I agree, the new changes to Nirvana moves are awesome. Well I still want to 8]D[ be just like in CS, fully unblockable. Hell removing 2 primer isn’t bad also, so its okey.

Im still hype for see how Carl is going to be on CS 2, I hope that he become a broken SSS char XD.

You know what thing will be cool? If Carl can do something like Eddie break the law, an example: Carl can hide in his hat and move in the floor being invulnerable for a short amount of time, and still able to controlling nirvana xD.

Edited December 8, 2010 by JG

[Dream Maker]

j.C knocking down may be the reason it lost it's gatlings?

One of the first things I thought about jC knocking down was using j2C allecan to pick up your opponent straigth after jC. That would probably have allowed stupid solo Carl loops based on anything into jC KD, j2C allecan, [land jump forward jB, jC KD, j2C allecan xN]. Going by this I'm not surprised they removed this jC > j2C gatling.

I'm also not that hype about the 3D pickup. Sure it should give Carl a real okizeme with the opponent unable to ground tech. Still, the fact that he will probably not be able to use nirvana due to her recovering from 3D weakens the whole thing a lot in my opinion, leaving Carl highly exposed to reversals and probably having to rely on j2C crossup shenanigans at best to break the guard.

I'm not sure it would really be preferable to prior okizeme games where the opponent could indeed tech out by guessing right but where you could use nirvana to somehow prevent and counter reversal attempts (or creating unblockables). I guess 3D pickup could still be good anyway against characters with no good reversal and/or characters Carl really has trouble to approach in neutral combat situations.

Anyway I'm impatient to ty the new Carl and to see what changes went through the final version.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Dream Maker

[Mascarpone]

One of the first things I thought about jC knocking down was using j2C allecan to pick up your opponent straigth after jC. That would probably have allowed stupid solo Carl loops based on anything into jC KD, j2C allecan, [land jump forward jB, jC KD, j2C allecan xN]. Going by this I'm not surprised they removed this jC > j2C gatling.

I'm also not that hype about the 3D pickup. Sure it should give Carl a real okizeme with the opponent unable to ground tech. Still, the fact that he will probably not be able to use nirvana due to her recovering from 3D weakens the whole thing a lot in my opinion, leaving Carl highly exposed to reversals and probably having to rely on j2C crossup shenanigans at best to break the guard.

I'm not sure it would really be preferable to prior okizeme games where the opponent could indeed tech out by guessing right but where you could use nirvana to somehow prevent and counter reversal attempts (or creating unblockables). I guess 3D pickup could still be good anyway against characters with no good reversal and/or characters Carl really has trouble to approach in neutral combat situations.

Anyway I'm impatient to ty the new Carl and to see what changes went through the final version.

the 2B -> 5B Gatling might be enough to extend the length of Carl's ground pressure for nirvana to recover, and if vivaceB is full invincible it might be an option for crossing up with 2/4D (since usualy you do it with vivaceA at short distances, i assume b would be used for block strings that keep you farther away from the opponent. but a might still work.) and there's also always Anima shenanigans

[soujiro seta]

Yes, those are all projectiles, yes.

Thanks. I can't wait to see volante vs all those, assuming that change stays.

Finally someone who understand me. Hell I like Carl how work in Cs, that way I don’t want to lose his reset and combo potential because weird changes like j.C knock down and j.B, j.C not being able to gattlig after a j2.C.

His combo potential and reset potential are 2 different things. Something had to be done to CS carl cause if he was left untouched he would be OP in CS2. Don't forget carl's damage is not dependent on screen placement, but on his starter. His combo potential had to be nerfed to be in line with the other characters.

On his resets: nah I was mostly exaggerating. I love that loop too much so seeing it go made me sadface, but he'll still be fine without it. The loop gave you multiple ways to land things, but if the j.2c kd stays we'll find new resets with that.

I think that is a BIG nerf loosing the Jump loop and stuff like, J.2C, J.B, J.C, 5A,2A, 5B, 6B, 2]D[ Unblockeable.

You can do 6C 2A 5A 5B 2D 2B slight delay 6B. He still has his 2D unblockable.

I don’t care too much losing some of the big combos, because im pretty sure that we are going to still be able to perform Combos that deal 5K, and that is ideal after a reset or unblockeable.

Carl dealing 5k in CS2? Uhh we'll have to wait and see.

I know that the new 3]D[ pickup sound awesome, im really hype for that change, but that also mean that now we are more Nirvana depent than before.

Speaking with the truth, if one manages to connect 2 reset and then going for a big combo…. How many Nirvana gauge left you will have to try the 3]D[ pickup? Also, how many times you will be able to the 3]D[ pickcup until Nirvana runs out of life?, and the most important thing, with 3]D[ can you do good dmg? Especially now that you can´t do jump loop or j2.C, J.B, j,C, land, etc?

How long she lasts is dependent on the carl player. 3D pickup isn't for damage, but for oki. The good thing about carl is that resets are his strenght, so forcing people to stand up after a kd is really important. It doesn't matter if it blue beats or deals 5 damage cause you're gonna go for a reset. That's the whole point of 3D pickup. Force standing and go for a reset.

Like you I don’t want to his reset potential to be lowered en CS2. I don’t think that he is ruined, but maybe he will not be as good like in CS.

There's no way to know how good he'll be since we don't know what is final and what is not. Also, you'll have have to guage his effectiveness vs the other characters. Heck for all we know he might end up being OP and needing a nerf. In other words, we'll just have to wait until tomorrow.

3C is still teachable? Or just in counter is not teachable? Sad about the 3C change, it’s just dumb.

I also like how they put more emphasis on Nirvana, like Eddie on GGAC in comparison to GGReload.

It’s true that in the current system they can easily poke Nirvana, but if you think that more deeply at least Nirvana regenerate fast and also you can try to defend Nirvana, IAD j.B is scary XD.

But I agree, the new changes to Nirvana moves are awesome. Well I still want to 8]D[ be just like in CS, fully unblockable. Hell removing 2 primer isn’t bad also, so its okey.

In the loketest, 3C was techable, CH 3C wasn't. Techable 3C was done to prevent random hitcomfirms into summon combo. Assuming cantabile untechable till ground stays, we'll have new summon combos.

8D had bonus proration in the test. Making it unblockable with a bonus would have been broken. They made it blockable to reduce random 8D hits into a combo. This way it's more of a "WARNING, don't jump again" kinda thing rather than guaranteed damage. Breaking 2 primers with bonus proration is more than good enough. People still won't jump.

Im still hype for see how Carl is going to be on CS 2, I hope that he become a broken SSS char XD.

You know what thing will be cool? If Carl can do something like Eddie break the law, an example: Carl can hide in his hat and move in the floor being invulnerable for a short amount of time, and still able to controlling nirvana xD.

You want him to be broken o_O?

Lol, your idea of hiding in the hat is funny.

One of the first things I thought about jC knocking down was using j2C allecan to pick up your opponent straigth after jC. That would probably have allowed stupid solo Carl loops based on anything into jC KD, j2C allecan, [land jump forward jB, jC KD, j2C allecan xN]. Going by this I'm not surprised they removed this jC > j2C gatling.

Being able to combo after j.C kd would depend on 2 things. It's untechable time, and the height at which carl hit them with j.2C. If they can tech quickly then he'll have to hit them with j.C pretty low to the ground to combo off it.

I'm also not that hype about the 3D pickup. Sure it should give Carl a real okizeme with the opponent unable to ground tech. Still, the fact that he will probably not be able to use nirvana due to her recovering from 3D weakens the whole thing a lot in my opinion, leaving Carl highly exposed to reversals and probably having to rely on j2C crossup shenanigans at best to break the guard.

3D pickup 6C 5A 5B 2B 6B/5C. That gives nirvana more than enough time.

I'm not sure it would really be preferable to prior okizeme games where the opponent could indeed tech out by guessing right but where you could use nirvana to somehow prevent and counter reversal attempts (or creating unblockables). I guess 3D pickup could still be good anyway against characters with no good reversal and/or characters Carl really has trouble to approach in neutral combat situations.

Anyway I'm impatient to ty the new Carl and to see what changes went through the final version.

3D pickup is gdlk against everyone. They have to emergency tech now. After a knockdown if you slightly delay 3D, so that it's active frames don't end during your opponents invincible frames on neutral tech, they'll be forced to block like the last 2/3 hits of 3D. They can still reversal, obviously, but it has to have invincibility (You're still going to have to bait reversals even with 3D pickup). This also means that they can't emergency tech and jump back barrier right away cause the remaining hits of 3D will keep them grounded, and if they're holding up it's practically a hit confirm. They can't mash out anything that isn't invincible on wakeup or they'll get counterhit. Unlike an instant 3D after a kd, emergency tech won't beat a delayed 3D. Even if they catch on to the fact that you're delaying 3D, it doesn't matter cause you can change up the timing (instant after kd or slightly delayed after kd so it's a guessing game). Coupled with the fact that carl is the reset king, and you start to see dangerous this can be.

Edited December 8, 2010 by soujiro seta

[ZONG_one]

Carl having Eddie break the law was my favorite suggestion so far, lol.

Hiding in his top hat.

[Zeero]

I'd like a Carl install where he jumps into Nirvana and they become unlimited Nirvana <3

[ansem]

Since 3c is techable they should at least make it faster and have a bit more range.

[ioKain]

Carl

+ 6A is way easier to use, invincibility feels really long.

- Throw damage nerf? Forward throw, j2C, jB, 2D, 5C, volante, j2C allecan, 5C, jB, jC, 2D does about 2500

- Cantata's startup is slower

-Nirvana's gauge has no change to consumption. However Nirvana seems to lose a lot more gauge when hit by opponents and takes a lot more time to recover once broke. Red effect on Nirvana when she gets hit.

o Nirvana's gauge consumption speed is not that bad (altough if she dies it takes indeed some time for her to regenerate)

o Jump feels somewhat unconfortable?+ Easier to continue combo after 2hit 8D

o Basic solo Carl air combo now : anything into cantabile, C, jB, j2C, jB, jC, jB, allegretto

o JC knocks down, but the opponent falls at about the same speed as Carl.

o B vivace same

o Bounce after j2C is really high, so high that even after j2C being guarded Tager was able to catch Carl with atomic collider.

o jB fatal counter is indeed gone but jB counter is now close to being air untechable. Carl can pick the opponent up if he lands first or continue offense hitting with nirvana's 3D.

? Since there are few occasions to land 3C counter it can't be used much (an above poster however said that 3C > cantata still works). It's basically useful for pseudo unblockables with nirvana's 2D.

Final changes, we didn't get full invincibility on vivace B.

What's really confusing me is they say the bounce on j.2C is really high now, yet there are reports of people still doing the 2D loop with J.B. 6A sounds really awesome as well.

Edit: this obviously isn't all the changes, just what's known so far.

[feri]

I must have missed that j.b > j.2c gatling gained under 200 pages of spam in that other thread. Some j.b fuzzy guards incoming. I'm also seeing a j.c > j.b gatling and 5c, j.b, j.c, 2d in your post.... Are these mistakes?

All updates are appreciated! Thanks!

Edit: I'm still confused. More clarification? The original thread is too huge and needs massive pruning

Edited December 9, 2010 by feri

[ioKain]

They clarified that j.c in the original thread. The j.c is meant to be jump cancel not the attack. Sorry for confusion.

[ZONG_one]

Carl

+ 6A is way easier to use, invincibility feels really long.

- Throw damage nerf? Forward throw, j2C, jB, 2D, 5C, volante, j2C allecan, 5C, jB, jC, 2D does about 2500

- Cantata's startup is slower

-Nirvana's gauge has no change to consumption. However Nirvana seems to lose a lot more gauge when hit by opponents and takes a lot more time to recover once broke. Red effect on Nirvana when she gets hit.

o Nirvana's gauge consumption speed is not that bad (altough if she dies it takes indeed some time for her to regenerate)

o Jump feels somewhat unconfortable?+ Easier to continue combo after 2hit 8D

o Basic solo Carl air combo now : anything into cantabile, C, jB, j2C, jB, jC, jB, allegretto

o JC knocks down, but the opponent falls at about the same speed as Carl.

o B vivace same

o Bounce after j2C is really high, so high that even after j2C being guarded Tager was able to catch Carl with atomic collider.

o jB fatal counter is indeed gone but jB counter is now close to being air untechable. Carl can pick the opponent up if he lands first or continue offense hitting with nirvana's 3D.

? Since there are few occasions to land 3C counter it can't be used much (an above poster however said that 3C > cantata still works). It's basically useful for pseudo unblockables with nirvana's 2D.

Final changes, we didn't get full invincibility on vivace B.

What's really confusing me is they say the bounce on j.2C is really high now, yet there are reports of people still doing the 2D loop with J.B. 6A sounds really awesome as well.

Edit: this obviously isn't all the changes, just what's known so far.

So we don't exactly have j.B j.C j.B like we used to, but we have the gatling back in a way. Cool. :]

And Opponent falling at same time as Carl is gdlk. Do we know the untechable time once they hit the ground? :3

j.2C blocked sucks, but we should probably allecan that anyway.

We don't get j.2C j.B j.C mixup anymore iirc, so no point in not cancelling it.

j.B is interesting. Atleast it's not a complete lost cause.

vivace B :[

Here's to being in the top 4/6 characters again.

*knocks on wood*

EDIT- so is the jC in the solo carl combo you posted supposed to be jc?

:[

But if that's the case, aren't you getting j.B twice in one jump?

j.B > j.2C > j.B ?

And wouldn't that make j.B > j.2C > j.B > dj.B > dj.2C > dj.C work?

God, I want to see vids so bad.

Edited December 9, 2010 by ZONG_one

[Mascarpone]

6A　　　　凄く使いやすくなった。体感で分かるくらい無敵が長い。

+ 6A is way easier to use, invincibility feels really long. According to another poster 6A seems so strong now that using it against Tager j2C and despite missing the timing, the invicibility continued even after the actual attack hitting part of the animation.

wwhhhhhhaaaattt?????

[soujiro seta]

wwhhhhhhaaaattt?????

It's kinda like CS1 ragna's 6A. You don't even have to time it correctly cause at best it wins, at worst it clashes. So you can just toss it out there anytime you want. His 6A might as well be a DP.

If you're using ragna and you think haku is going to hotaru, 6A. It will clash.

I really want to see vids badly right now. Some of the changes need clarification.

EDIT

If carl's 6A is really that good then lmao. I'm just gonna be tossing it out there knowing that no matter what it still won't lose.

Edited December 9, 2010 by soujiro seta

[Mascarpone]

I know what it meant lol that was more of a "No way really? we have a busted-ass AA now?"

side note, Seems like Volante in juggles is ass now. I wonder if 4D is still worth doing?

Edited December 9, 2010 by Mascarpone

[soujiro seta]

Lol, if his 6A is CS1 ragna like characters like tager, jin, noel, mak etc are in trouble.

Infact ragna and haku might be in trouble too. When they jump at us with j.C, we'll 6A knowing at worst it will clash and they'll land right in sandwich position.

I can't wait to see vids of this.

Edited December 9, 2010 by soujiro seta

[Akanishi]

Also brio returned to CS1 quality, and the 2D combo's damage is really subtle for it's nirvana usage (not really a central part of carl's damaging combos anymore). JC seems to have made connecting 4D easier, still damage is subtle by the looks of it. I wonder how he fares in the long run, how many things they'll discover...

http://generalnantoka.blog35.fc2.com/blog-entry-420.html#cm

I just summarized some points that hopefully aren't mentioned yet. Sorry, if it's a repeat or something.

（；￣д￣）

Edited December 9, 2010 by Akanishi

[ZONG_one]

6A was already broken.

NOW IT'S GDLK?