[CS1] Valkenhayn Technical Discussion

[Warhound]

Well, that aspect of the combo seems pretty crucial for dealing the big damage. I was looking at some matches. If memory serves, it seems that there were only two wolf, dash, attack, things in the combo in which he used [w] j.B > j.B > 5D > 5B > Distortion.

Maybe that also has something to do with it.

[lunaris]

since nobody's really given a complete explanation on how the double j.b ender works, i'll add a few things to what's been said. this is going to be wordy, and probably poorly formatted.

there are a number of factors that influence the success of the double j.b combo:

1. vertical distance of your opponent relative to you when you start the first [w]j.b: if valkenhayn is too high or too low, [w]j.b will whiff or the opponent will tech too fast

2. altitude of both you and your opponent when you start the 2nd [w]j.b: if the opponent is too low to the ground by the time you start the 2nd [w]j.b, there is nothing you can do. similarly, the lower valk is when the second [w]j.b starts, the less time there is has before he can do 5b.

3. proration of the combo: combos which climb to high altitudes and are above a certain proration level are usually either very difficult to use this ender with or sometimes impossible. if you're building a combo and run into the problem where they tech before they hit the ground, try finding ways to reduce the altitude of the combo, take moves out of the combo to reduce proration, or settle for [w]j.Xc>j.d>j.b>jc>j.b>j.c.

factors influencing 1:

A) the combo itself: does it use TK j.214b>d>[w]236a? did you use 2 [w]236x attacks or 3? etc.

B) the delays on the 236x attacks: delaying more will cause both your opponent to fall lower and valkenhayn's position to change(further up if you delay 236b, 236a's effect varies depending on the combo)

C) whether you used [w]j.5c or [w]j.7c

D) the delay between [w]j.XC and [w]j.b: after doing [w]j.7c, delaying the [w]j.b will cause valkenhayn to fall faster than his opponent. after [w]5c, delaying [w]j.b will cause the opposite effect.

factors influencing 2:

A) again, the combo itself: certain combos will bring you to higher altitudes by nature

B) the delay on the 2nd [w]j.b: causes the opponent to fall faster than valkenhayn(i believe) and is sometimes necessary so that the opponent won't tech before they hit the ground(since delaying the 2nd j.b results in less fall time before the opponent hits the ground)

C) how long you delay the [w]j.XC if you were using 236b as the last 236X attack; delaying [w]j.XC after [w]236b causes valkenhayn to climb higher

other stuff:

double [w]j.b>d>5b>2c/5c>jc>j.b>j.214b>9d>d>j.b>jc>j.b>j.c>236236c

will do slightly less damage than ending with the 632146d super, but will reward significantly more meter, so if you don't have full meter, i'd advise doing it when proration allows despite the damage difference.

as another person said, there is no "trick"; the closest thing to a "trick" is simply knowing at what relative height you need to activate a j.Xc at, but even then there are at least 2 factors that determine whether it will work. i find that the combo generally works with [w]7c if the enemy is lower than you, and if the enemy is a little higher or at even level then [w]5c will work(but [w]5c will almost never work at higher proration).

so, depending on the factors i listed at the beginning of my post, every combo is likely to be a little different and you will just have to get a good sense of when to activate different moves depending on spatial judgment.

hope this helps someone.

Edited December 9, 2010 by lunaris

[Ross]

You actually can convert if they are to low to the ground before the second[w]j.b by do [w] j.a instead... just sorta depends.

As for the poster above that here is the standard combo i do with the 5b ender

starts arounfd midscreen

5c xx236+c,9d, [w]j.a,~j.b, 5b xx 236b xx 236b ~ 5c, jb ~ jb, 5b, j.b, 3c, j.a, 5d, [h] 5b xx super.

If you learn that its got all the important parts to valk combos and does good damage.

[pimp2303]

Does 5b to 5c 236c not work anymore?

[Slowpoke]

that never worked

[Jais]

it works on crouching opponents ;D

[Slowpoke]

quite right, my mistake, 5b > 5c >236C works on crouching opponents and on counter hit when they're forced into crouching positions (ex. Tagers 2C).

[Jais]

e.g. standing CH 5B > 5C xx 236C will not combo

5b>5C>236C works on crouching and (in theory) Fatal Counter vs a standing opponent. That is only theory because 6B FC's but it forces crouching regardless. I don't think we can ever have a standing FC combo using Valkenhayn.

6C(launch)

6B(force crouch)

Edited December 9, 2010 by Jais

[Warhound]

I'd say the delay on the second [w] j.B is probably what's missing. I'll try that, see if it works. Thanks for the informative post, Lunaris.

[GenoWhirl]

e.g. standing CH 5B > 5C xx 236C will not combo

5b>5C>236C works on crouching and (in theory) Fatal Counter vs a standing opponent. That is only theory because 6B FC's but it forces crouching regardless. I don't think we can ever have a standing FC combo using Valkenhayn.

6C(launch)

6B(force crouch)

For the sake of investigation, I did FC 6B (1 hit) Rapid cancel (which would be the only way to have a standing FC) and proceeded to do 5B > 5C > 236C, and it worked.

So yes, in theory a standing FC would allow 5B > 5C > NACHT ROZEN

[Jais]

That was pretty sharp ^^ great job

Does anybody know if crouching FC is +4 frames of hitstun exactly?

[NickExtreme1]

For the sake of investigation, I did FC 6B (1 hit) Rapid cancel (which would be the only way to have a standing FC) and proceeded to do 5B > 5C > 236C, and it worked.

So yes, in theory a standing FC would allow 5B > 5C > NACHT ROZEN

I find FC 6B > 2C >236A> 2A > 2C > Nacht Rozen > Whatever works well too.

Edited December 11, 2010 by NickExtreme1

[Linear04]

what do the red highlighted combos supposed to mean?

[NickExtreme1]

what do the red highlighted combos supposed to mean?

It's in , like the fourth line of text in the OP, Valkenhayn's most perferred & practical combos.

[Linear04]

weird, ctrl-f'ed the first page and i never got that line :/

[Urichinan]

So I just learned:

[h] 2C > 6B > 3C > 2C > j.214B > Land > 236B > 5D > j.A > 5D > 2C > 6C > 2C > sj.D > j.AAA > j.236A > j.236B > 7C > j.B > j.B > Land > 5D > 5B > 632146D

I can't get it to work on Carl, the 5B whiffs him. But I can always land it on other combos, this is the only one I can't get it to work on... Help?

Also how viable is that combo? It does 7.9K...

[GenoWhirl]

If the 5B is whiffing, it may be a simple matter of delaying the j.B's in a different way.

It seems viable to me, if you can land it consistently

[OrionXElite]

For the sake of investigation, I did FC 6B (1 hit) Rapid cancel (which would be the only way to have a standing FC) and proceeded to do 5B > 5C > 236C, and it worked.

So yes, in theory a standing FC would allow 5B > 5C > NACHT ROZEN

Uhh...6B gatlings into 5C on either hit so you could've just done 6B(1)>5C>Rozen for testing purposes. The 5B has absolutely nothing to do with the combo working or not since you're testing 5C>Rozen on Standing Fatal

Also Jais, yes crouching Fatal means +4 hit stun. Jager>2A link doesn't work on Fatal Standing so therefore, extra frames on crouching

[GenoWhirl]

Uhh...6B gatlings into 5C on either hit so you could've just done 6B(1)>5C>Rozen for testing purposes.

...

I feel quite derpy at this moment

[GenoWhirl]

Guys, was it known that Valk is throw invulnerable during Wolf Transform? Because I didn't know. (Only Valk to Wolf, Wolf to Valk has no throw invul that I can see)

[Jais]

Guys, was it known that Valk is throw invulnerable during Wolf Transform? Because I didn't know. (Only Valk to Wolf, Wolf to Valk has no throw invul that I can see)

O.o This.Is.AWESOME!

[GenoWhirl]

>Tests

This doesn't apply to airthrows

>My face when it beats Tager's 360 when timed right (Unless they hold A/B)

Muzzle filter can hit Wolf form lolol (it's not a grab anyways technically)

Doesn't beat 720, nor Gassaishou, nor Bang's command grab. But I guess it's useful if you know they're gonna tick throw you just command grab them or something. Wonder if it's still in CS2

Edited December 25, 2010 by GenoWhirl

[OrionXElite]

Thats so dumb yet so impractical at the same time. I was testing it out and its only got about 3-4 frames of Throw Invul so to guess right on moves with 2-3 actives grab frames is insane but so funny. God I love Valk, his bullshit is hilarious.

Also might as well throw out the use of 6A for Valk. You can IB 6A a lot of blockstrings since the guard point starts at about frame 3 or 4. Gives a pretty good defensive option outside of CA or Reversal Super. You can even Guard Point a burst and it'll actually put you at advantage! So if you see a wakeup Gold Burst, 6A it and you'll be about even and if you wanna be flashy and RC>6A a green burst, you'll be at a slight advantage. Not too worth it but in some cases like against Bang, 6A a burst at close to max range of the burst and if he tries to 5A to hit you, it'll whiff and you can 5B him for free. Its also a GREAT mindfuck tool:keke:

[Tofma]

i didnt see this in the 1st post (probably cos its a bitch to land so noone bothers) but im still assuming its old news. just wanna make sure

(w) j.236d>5d>5c>5d>2c>6b>5b>2c>jc>5d>j.a>j.236a>j236b>5c>5d>j.b>214b>9c>5d>j.b>jc>j.b>j.c (>j.236236c)=4.6k(5.8k)

Edited December 28, 2010 by Tofma

[OrionXElite]

Just throwing out a simple 6C Fatal combo for shits:

FC6C>5DC>5D>Land>2C>6B>2C>5C>HJC>D>[w]j.AAA>j.236A>j.236B>5C>j.B>j.B>Land>5B>JC>D>[H]j.B>j.214B>9DC>5D>[H]j.B>dj.B>dj.C>Konig Flug 6152 DMG 54 Meter

Not the most damaging but in terms of difficulty, this is easy shit. Works on everyone except Carl. Its quite hard on Ragna and kinda weird on Hazama.

Theres also a universal variant for all characters that goes as such:

FC6C>5DC>D>Land>6B>2C>5C>HJC>D>[w]j.AAA>j.236A>j.236B>5C>j.B>j.B>5B>JC>D>[H]j.B>j.214B>9DC>D>[H]j.B>dj.B>dj.C>Konig Flug 5931 DMG 50 Meter

A bit tricky but certainly flashy and simple after you get past the 6B>2C