[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

It's not about learning "rushdown" like it's a switch you turn on. It's just being comfortable moving around with Hakumen and using his moves in the best way so you can move in on them when you feel like it.

[SansProtocol]

That's the thing with any character: doing the most optimal thing possible. Hakumen players have to be able to keep a good balance between offense and defense unlike some other characters. Depending on your meter, your position, the capabilities of your opponent, the tendencies they have, the tendencies you have shown them, and life totals, you have to be able to clearly think about everything you do. All of your moves must have some sort of purpose behind them, regardless of whether it is a 6D to punish that gap in a blockstring or simply taunting someone with 5A from afar to incite them to attack you when you'll have the upper hand.

[Sophisticat]

It's not about learning "rushdown" like it's a switch you turn on. It's just being comfortable moving around with Hakumen and using his moves in the best way so you can move in on them when you feel like it.

Yes, quite right. For me, rushdown simply implies applying constant pressure so they don't get to breathe. I'm fine with being aggressive even when low on stars, so I'm comfortable with it. In general, you'll want to have solid fundamentals, and this means knowing your character. If you can play SF with Haku, you can choose any style you want. Be aware of your options as SansProtocol says above.

There are probably some "training regimens" you can give a shot once you've gotten better with Haku. Some I've done include:

1) Playing with the D button unbinded. (No bursts, no counters)

2) No specials, only normals.

3) Only counters or throws.

4) Turtling up to X# of mag before going on the offensive.

5) No attacking, only blocking/throw break.

6) No mag, no normals, Mugen only, Adventus!

Etc., you get the idea. They all train something different. Try it out!

Once you achieve a certain level of proficiency with Haku, you'll just... flow. Everything becomes intuitive, you'll react to overheads and counter their stuff every time. They'll rarely get a hit in because you can block it all. I love when that happens.

[IndigoNovember]

(@__@) You guys are all talking about such high level play (it might be something "normal", but it feels so far away from where I am at currently). I'll keep what you guys said in mind though as a goal.

There are probably some "training regimens" you can give a shot once you've gotten better with Haku. Some I've done include:

...

Etc., you get the idea. They all train something different. Try it out!

These training regimens are pretty interesting and I like the ideas behind them. I'll definitely try them out when I get a chance to.

[SansProtocol]

(@__@) You guys are all talking about such high level play (it might be something "normal", but it feels so far away from where I am at currently). I'll keep what you guys said in mind though as a goal.

These training regimens are pretty interesting and I like the ideas behind them. I'll definitely try them out when I get a chance to.

Don't worry too much. Just make spacing your number one priority. If you use a move (especially 4C), you shouldn't whiff or get CH/stuffed. Then, work on overall defense (blocking/throw breaking) and fine-tuning the use of Hakumen's Drive. Good luck!

[IndigoNovember]

Don't worry too much. Just make spacing your number one priority. If you use a move (especially 4C), you shouldn't whiff or get CH/stuffed. Then, work on overall defense (blocking/throw breaking) and fine-tuning the use of Hakumen's Drive. Good luck!

Would these be the "fundamentals"? Upon these you would build everything else, right?

Regarding Hakumen, according to General Nantoka:

Zanshin has more "power".

Big thanks to Isuna for finding this. Perhaps by "power" we mean damage? Perhaps we can achieve a higher overall damage? Perhaps the Zanshin themselves have been strengthened to do more damage? What would you guys prefer? I'd like it if the Zanshin themselves did more damage. It'd make 6d -> Mugen -> Shippu do even more unburstable damage (>▽<) . … I have way too much fun trolling my friends with that (=_=;; ) .

If not damage, what could "power" mean?

[mAc Chaos]

If the damage scaling on them was reduced it would be good.

[SansProtocol]

Would these be the "fundamentals"? Upon these you would build everything else, right?

Along with working on hit-confirming, yes.

[IndigoNovember]

Along with working on hit-confirming, yes.

Right, working on that at the moment.

Side Note: So according to dustloop Character System Data, Hakumen has 1200 health. Just thought I'd let you guys know. Man, I never thought we'd have the lowest health in the game, by a large margin. Carl? The guy's a beast compared to us man, he's got like nearly 8 times more health than us. /joking aside, that should probably get changed so nobody gets too confused.

[C0R]

I'll let shtkn know.

[SansProtocol]

Right, working on that at the moment.

Side Note: So according to dustloop Character System Data, Hakumen has 1200 health. Just thought I'd let you guys know. Man, I never thought we'd have the lowest health in the game, by a large margin. Carl? The guy's a beast compared to us man, he's got like nearly 8 times more health than us. /joking aside, that should probably get changed so nobody gets too confused.

It was mentioned by zreb, I believe, in the Frame Data feedback thread, so no worries.

EDIT: Random Corinthatic was random. Surf the Hakumen board often?

[IndigoNovember]

I'll let shtkn know.

Many thanks.

EDIT: Random Corinthatic was random. Surf the Hakumen board often?

That PNW crew, sticking together even on the forums (>▽<) .

Random Edit: So I logged in today to find 48 people viewing the archive... Do people really like the glory days of CT, I mean, CS that much?

Edited September 13, 2011 by IndigoNovember

[SansProtocol]

That PNW crew, sticking together even on the forums (>▽<) .

Random Edit: So I logged in today to find 48 people viewing the archive... Do people really like the glory days of CT, I mean, CS that much?

It's the crew that almost every other scene in America should look up to as an example. We have a wonderful and competitive scene here in Tampa (and soon Florida) though.

And CS2 changed the game a bit for old Haku, but it's always good to look back on past discussion to understand what changed and how that affected Haku/everyone else in the end. Or they just like the OP of CS1 j.D too much. XD

[C0R]

EDIT: Random Corinthatic was random. Surf the Hakumen board often?

I actually go through the vast majority of the forums, I read just about every General/Discussion/Matchup and Combo thread for every character.

[IndigoNovember]

And CS2 changed the game a bit for old Haku, but it's always good to look back on past discussion to understand what changed and how that affected Haku/everyone else in the end. Or they just like the OP of CS1 j.D too much. XD

It's probably the second (>__>) .

I actually go through the vast majority of the forums, I read just about every General/Discussion/Matchup and Combo thread for every character.

Trying to give Xie a run for his money ( ﾟ▽ﾟ) ?

[mAc Chaos]

CT is the original. That's what drew everyone to the series in the first place. So that's usually what's going to be the most liked since everything else after that is not what they signed up for originally. Plus Haku was just more fun then... but this has been beaten to death before.

[Mightfo]

CT is the original. That's what drew everyone to the series in the first place. So that's usually what's going to be the most liked since everything else after that is not what they signed up for originally. Plus Haku was just more fun then... but this has been beaten to death before.

since you have a boner for revisionist history

I agree that Hakumen's increased passive meter gain and higher damage fit him and added fun to him. However, here's the difference between you and me: I dont act like those two things mean that CT is better than CS1/CS2 despite the shitty burst system, guard libra being retarded, balance being terrible, many character like tager, ragna, bang, litchi having blatantly worse designs, rolls being stupid, retarded chicken blocking, many more normals with hilariously huge recovery like haku 3c and ragna 5c, etc etc etc. None of this shit is even close to made up for just through hakumen's damage and meter gain. The game not only had shitty character balance, but shitty system "balance."

Being the original doesnt mean shit. You might as well act as if everyone wants to play the original Guilty Gear or SF1. Nobody wanted a bad game, despite how much you want to imagine that CT had something magical about it. The only thing that made CT special was: 1)Hey, new series! Fresh! 2)Wow i'm new to fighters and have no idea what's going on! It's like some show or game you liked when you were 6, but you watch/play it again and realize it was ass.

If BBCT was the only thing we had today, the community would be dead as fuck, no matter how much you want to spread your fantasies that everything was a-ok with CT.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Mightfo

[SansProtocol]

What are you going on about? He only said that people will play the game because of the nostalgia factor of being the game that got them into the series. How does he talking about the way one character played mean that he loved CT's system overall? That was just completely out of nowhere.

[mAc Chaos]

Damn, u mad son. What you're missing is that "fun" and "balanced for tournament play" aren't the same thing. In fact, I played CT the other night and had a blast. And as far as originals go, SF2 is what drew everybody in, not SF1, and I still hold that head and shoulders above SF4.

Also as far as using the forums go, those old threads still have a lot of info, some of it that's still relevant, whereas a lot of the newer threads are empty.

Edited September 15, 2011 by mAc Chaos

[WallJumpMan]

I actually go through the vast majority of the forums, I read just about every General/Discussion/Matchup and Combo thread for every character.

wut a lurk

[Mightfo]

What you're missing is that "fun" and "balanced for tournament play" aren't the same thing. In fact, I played CT the other night and had a blast.

Except being a better game means its more fun because shit actually make sense and there is more depth and likely more fun due to more choices and balance of such choices. A badly designed game is not fun beyond a superficial level, the more you play the worse it gets, unlike a good game. The only reason anyone would like CT more than CS2/CS1 is nostalgia and tunnel vision. Tunnel vision lets you enjoy or hate almost anything.

I was hoping you would produce some actually reasons to prefer CT. Instead, more blind nostalgia. Well, at least I tried to get you to produce some substance.

What are you going on about? He only said that people will play the game because of the nostalgia factor of being the game that got them into the series. How does he talking about the way one character played mean that he loved CT's system overall? That was just completely out of nowhere.

No, he has acted several times like CT is better than CS without any reason, lol. Nostalgia is not what he said, he imagined some scenario where people sign up for CT's setup of characters and system and dont like the changes, as opposed to "hey, fresh new anime game lets try it"

Edited September 15, 2011 by Mightfo

[IndigoNovember]

Moving right along.

Making a Fumajin vs using Zanshin on a projectile, when should we be using each one?

I think Zanshin would only be used when the opponent is rushing in with the projectiles or trying to do a crossup while the projectiles are hitting you. Otherwise making a Fumajin seems more useful.

I've pretty much stopped making a Fumajin when people rush in under cover of projectiles due to them running into the Fumajin and being too far away for me to combo (T_T).

[Shervin]

Except being a better game means its more fun because shit actually make sense and there is more depth and likely more fun due to more choices and balance of such choices. A badly designed game is not fun beyond a superficial level, the more you play the worse it gets, unlike a good game. The only reason anyone would like CT more than CS2/CS1 is nostalgia and tunnel vision. Tunnel vision lets you enjoy or hate almost anything.

I was hoping you would produce some actually reasons to prefer CT. Instead, more blind nostalgia. Well, at least I tried to get you to produce some substance.

summary:

good games are good

bad games are bad....

"If BBCT was the only thing we had today, the community would be dead as fuck, no matter how much you want to spread your fantasies that everything was a-ok with CT."

this is kinda dumb tho

name me 10 games that are still being played today that havent had a sequel

?????

???????????????

bad games dont get sequels

no shit the community would be dead if CT was the only thing around..

and is bb's community really that big to begin with ??? coming from an sf player, u guys aint shit, lol.

"The only reason anyone would like CT more than CS2/CS1 is nostalgia and tunnel vision. Tunnel vision lets you enjoy or hate almost anything."

and idk what this tunnel vision bs is all about but, you really cant say "there is NO reason to like that game!" i like sf2 more than any other fighting game. a game where you can die bc of 1 hit. is it balanced???? no. do i still like it more than games that are more balanced??? yes. and its none of ya god damn bizness if i like it or dont like it;;;;;;; the point is *I* like it. if you dont like it cool suck dick but *I* like it..

or in his case, CT,

im not sure if you got molested on your way to the CT midnight release and it spawned a deep-rooted hatred toward the game, but saying a games "bad" is subjective as hell. I think gears 1 >>>>>>> gears 2, but theres other ppl who'd say the opposite. does that make one of us wrong ?? no, we have different preferences.

so you saying a game is badly designed doesnt mean it is necessarily

unless you're just expressing your opinion, then i cant hate on it

but then again, you're hating on his CT opinion sooooo

Edited September 15, 2011 by Shervin

[mAc Chaos]

oh god i died laughing

You beat me to it. >:C

Except being a better game means its more fun because shit actually make sense and there is more depth and likely more fun due to more choices and balance of such choices. A badly designed game is not fun beyond a superficial level, the more you play the worse it gets, unlike a good game. The only reason anyone would like CT more than CS2/CS1 is nostalgia and tunnel vision. Tunnel vision lets you enjoy or hate almost anything.

I was hoping you would produce some actually reasons to prefer CT. Instead, more blind nostalgia. Well, at least I tried to get you to produce some substance.

No, he has acted several times like CT is better than CS without any reason, lol. Nostalgia is not what he said, he imagined some scenario where people sign up for CT's setup of characters and system and dont like the changes, as opposed to "hey, fresh new anime game lets try it"

Translation: "STOP EVERYTHING! SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET LIKES A GAME I DON'T. THE OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE!!!111"

Look, games can be fun and good without being balanced. Look at SF3. Everyone is gay for that game but it's broken as fuck. It doesn't matter. Same with Marvel VS Capcom 2.

There's something about CT, the pace of it perhaps, that's different from CS 1 and 2 and I like it better. I'm not saying it's objectively better, since CS is obviously better designed, but it still doesn't capture the same feel. And as far as the BB community goes, I'm pretty sure that half of it dropped out after CS was released, so if good game = huge community then it failed miserably. It gets smaller with each release practically. Half the old Haku players who used to be way better than me ragequit the game pretty much once it came out.

Anyway @ Indigo: You want to counter usually, but cut the slower easier to cut projectiles.

[Leaf]

>someone likes something they dont

>get ass devastated

chum on, bro