[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[BladeOfJustice7]

@mashthat5a, I agree with what you said except the use of Hakumen's overhead, it's pretty useless except for that occasional guard crush. But it's ultimately used to pressure your opponent so that you can bide to time for a legit setup with 3+ stars or a grab. 6b is only useful in CP on CH cus you get a combo off that.

I'm surprised a Hakumen main would say Hakumen. I expected all Haku mains to say Ragna.

inorite?

[mAc Chaos]

@MashThat5A: Pretty much everyone can do TRM though. That's not really a Haku specialty. He only relies on it more because he doesn't have many other ways to pressure.

Sig it, Blade. You know you want to.

[dioxideUniversa]

I'm surprised a Hakumen main would say Hakumen. I expected all Haku mains to say Ragna.

i was also going to suggest hakumen. there was a discussion a while back about his step pressure, which is pretty well-rounded between hop hotaru, tsubaki, or renka. it requires 3 stars, but then ragna's pressure is pretty basic without meter as well

[MashThat5A]

@mashthat5a, I agree with what you said except the use of Hakumen's overhead, it's pretty useless except for that occasional guard crush. But it's ultimately used to pressure your opponent so that you can bide to time for a legit setup with 3+ stars or a grab. 6b is only useful in CP on CH cus you get a combo off that.

Just because you don't get a combo from it doesn't mean it's useless. You said it yourself, it's a pressure tool. It makes your opponent unable to just sit and block all day since it's hard to react to, which means they are more likely to make mistakes.

[BladeOfJustice7]

But it 6-700 damage off an overhead isn't that big a problem on defense, Jin's 6a overhead which is roughly just as fast as Hakumen's can be converted into damage if RC'ed making his overhead a threat once he has 50% meter. While still retaining gimmicky grab setups with 6b among other tools. Though Ragna's 6b is substantially slower than Hakumen's, he can still convert it into damage.

To me, legitimate mixup ability means how much your opponent needs to be on their toes because a hit from any of your mixup tools leads into decent damage. Hakumen can only truly get that with 3+ stars at his disposal.

That;s why characters like Hakumen deal so much damage off their random hits, it's because they don't get many opportunities as say characters like Bang/Valkenhyn/Tao to open the opponent up.

[kirbster]

Jokes aside, Haku has pretty decent pressure, and don't forget about corner j.b > JC > j.b fuzzy into Tsubaki, that shit is gayyy.

I think his pressure is better than Ragna's with stars, but honestly it's not their main respective strengths. Just don't go and dismiss him as having downright bad offense just because it's not his best asset. Comparison to Valk, Tao or even Rachel is just not fair lol.

[psycofang2]

his pressure is good, possibly better than ragnas, he just cant go hitting buttons everywhere and still have time to micro dash 5B off a whiffed 2C setup.

his pressure is thick and pretty linear, but thats the point of it, ragnas as gimmicky as it is can lead to alot of different situations whereas hakumen only has a couple of things to go off of it, ragnas is easily broken if hes too linear, hakumens pressure isnt that easy to break.

his mixup is sub par outside of situations where you can get the opponent to respect your options like falling JB fuzzy.

[MashThat5A]

But it 6-700 damage off an overhead isn't that big a problem on defense, Jin's 6a overhead which is roughly just as fast as Hakumen's can be converted into damage if RC'ed making his overhead a threat once he has 50% meter. While still retaining gimmicky grab setups with 6b among other tools. Though Ragna's 6b is substantially slower than Hakumen's, he can still convert it into damage.

To me, legitimate mixup ability means how much your opponent needs to be on their toes because a hit from any of your mixup tools leads into decent damage. Hakumen can only truly get that with 3+ stars at his disposal.

That;s why characters like Hakumen deal so much damage off their random hits, it's because they don't get many opportunities as say characters like Bang/Valkenhyn/Tao to open the opponent up.

I don't understand your argument about Jin's overhead. Yes, once he has 50 meter he can RC it, but once you have 50 meter, you have Tsubaki...again, saying characters get better with 50% but Haku gets better with 3 stars isn't a valid argument since 3 stars is less than 50 meter...

Also, since you build meter for free having to spend it to do mixup isn't a problem.

Also, 2C>whiff 5B doesn't work against anyone good.

Edited May 11, 2013 by MashThat5A

[dioxideUniversa]

just because hakumen has a gameplay plan prior to having 3 stars for good mixups that isn't "get a combo off a 24 frame overhead" does not necessarily mean he has worse pressure

i'm obviously no expert but ragna's pressure is not the scariest there is < 50 meter and he doesn't just get meter for trying to zone or do footsies

[psycofang2]

dont recall saying 2C whiff 5B worked on good players.

I DO recall saying ragna has enough time to do that, contrary to hakumen.

Hakus pressure is stronger but with a linear purpose when compared to ragnas not so linear pressure difference being like i said ragna has the gift to just hit buttons and go with it haku has no such allowance BUT in return hakus pressure is much heavier and with more purpose and commitment.

Edit: lol @ "good player" nothing works on them ever. EVER.

Edited May 11, 2013 by psycofang2

[BladeOfJustice7]

So, this game is fun again mostly because of the mind games. I'm actually having fun playing this game for the first time in months :3

I also played against dioxide.

I'll leave this categorization of everyone who plays Hakumen.

mAc: most aggressive Hakumen player.

crtlaltwtf: most gimmicky Hakumen player.

Dioxide: strongest executionary Hakumen, she does the most advance combos even online that you only see Chin do along with amazing hitconfirm. Stay gdlk.

tectal: most patient and well rounded.

LegendaryRath: the most Azreal Hakumen player? (We haven't played yet)

psychofang: ???? (We haven't played yet either)

Spark: DEBESS.avi Hakumen player (obviously I haven't played him)

Walljump: The Hakumen killer. Nuff said.

It's funny how we all play the same character but we all play him to suit out own playstyles, like my negative playstyle: zoning spacing, dwindling your health down and keeping you out of reach at all times.

Discuss :3 I'm out to go press some buttons.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

There's an arrow in my chest now. It has "most gimmicky hakumen" written on it.

[toanenadiz]

No Wander, Din or Soul on that list?

Edited May 12, 2013 by toanenadiz

[mAc Chaos]

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I am the gimmick cheeseburger.

[Koopa_Klawz]

Can I go for worse Hakumen? :3

[TheBossGiga]

;

No Wander, Din or Soul on that list?

I haven't played alot of you guys but on those guys.

Wander: The most solid use of haku's tools(That i've played)

Din: The most confident haku in playstyle choices(That i've played)

Gigabowser: The smartest haku(That i've played)

I played soul very few times so i have no real impression

I Reeeally want to play you guys.....

Also koopa your decent -_-

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Can I go for worse Hakumen? :3

You can be the Iron Hakumen.

[mAc Chaos]

It always feels weird when people say I'm the most aggressive Hakumen because I'm so used to people always saying I was the most patient and defensive one. That was ages ago though.

[Mucky]

Maybe you just go through phases. I'm the same way.

Once upon a time, I was patient when I played Tager.

[dioxideUniversa]

hakumen player tierlist

i only wish my non-combo game was worthy of praise rofl

[mAc Chaos]

Maybe you just go through phases. I'm the same way.

Once upon a time, I was patient when I played Tager.

For me, it's more like... the defensive patient style is the foundation, or the fallback position, but when I really get a grasp of the matchup or the other player it frees me to take a more aggressive stance, the real style. Although some characters like Tager still force you to play defensively.

But there's a difference between just hanging back and waiting for them, and a kind of aggressive defense that is always pushing forward, always waiting and pressing for the tiniest crack to open so you can spill in like a tidal wave and crush them.

Let's see, we left out Sophisticat, Blade and Sans, although I have only played the latter two. I have not seen WallJumpMan play other Hakus either. Maybe he has 360. :V

Blade and Sans are generally well balanced although it's been a while since I played them so it's hard to remember a specific thing. Plus they play differently VS me.

Oh and there's Skeletal Minion too.

Edited May 13, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[BladeOfJustice7]

For me, it's more like... the defensive patient style is the foundation, or the fallback position, but when I really get a grasp of the matchup or the other player it frees me to take a more aggressive stance, the real style. Although some characters like Tager still force you to play defensively.

But there's a difference between just hanging back and waiting for them, and a kind of aggressive defense that is always pushing forward, always waiting and pressing for the tiniest crack to open so you can spill in like a tidal wave and crush them.

Let's see, we left out Sophisticat, Blade and Sans, although I have only played the latter two. I have not seen WallJumpMan play other Hakus either. Maybe he has 360. :V

Blade and Sans are generally well balanced although it's been a while since I played them so it's hard to remember a specific thing. Plus they play differently VS me.

Oh and there's Skeletal Minion too.

Nolan aka Sophis has the best use of drive, I only have trademark on Yukikaze™, but Nolan has very good use of drive. Dioxide DOES.NOT.ZANSHIN.EVER though.

mAc's aggressive playstyle is my only kryptonite since I can't play aggressive against him for long before he just says "lol stop this." and proceeds to hotaru my nuts into inescapable corner pressure.

For dioxide don't play my play style, go around it. I'm honestly perfectly content zoning until a land a nice hit I can combo off of into oki. Otherwise I just play negative. But you have VERY strong execution, I used to think mAc had good execution until I saw your combos lol.

@ctrl, you are the most gimmicky Hakumen when we played I was like "wtf is he doing" "why the fuck is whatever he's doing working" hence why that is your title.

I forgot about sans nor have I played nor skeletal. I'll try for this week since my isp got buffed and this game is fun again.

As for Walljumpman, if you watch his matches against N.A Hakumen players like Spark (the God) or Japanese players like Takosu, he tends to win. hence his title the Hakumen killer. I've yet to see him at least lose in a Hakumen mirror.

Finally I don't feel I can play aggressive unless I'm using Kishuu :/

[mAc Chaos]

> mAc

> strong execution

No way man. My execution is terrible. At least unless I have been practicing but I pretty much always just go in cold.

Wait you've been playing dioxide? I need to play her then.

Ctrl has very strong execution too.

lol, "Hotaru your nuts into inescapable corner pressure."

I probably use Zanshin more than anyone although the results depends. Against Toan and Gold Champion the other day I was doing it on THEIR wakeup and catching moves, or just doing it in the middle of my pressure and catching things. I love it. It's the best feeling.

I feel like Sans and you use Zanshin the most textbook, safe way though.

Edited May 13, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[BladeOfJustice7]

I've always considered your execution very good actually. Slightly better than mine when I'm in shape. I try to limit my use fo counters unless I'm sure, it's also interesting that using Ky has improved my use of Zanshin and spacing overall.

I have an easier time keeping people out of range and capitalizing it. yes, ctrl has very good execution but I feel that dioxide's is the best, ctrl is random as fuck with Hakumen though.